Why do you think divination works?

[Scarlett Wampus]

If you use a form of divination and find it useful at all, do you ever speculate on how it works?

I suspect looking for an answer puts me in a frame of mind where I'll be congenial to finding one through divination. However, I also wonder whether divination serves as a gateway to the subconscious. In other words, by reading tarot cards or whatnot I bypass my conscious control over which cards come up but the memory of which cards are where in the pack could be available to my subconscious through familiarity and therefore could use them to respond to my question. Just a theory.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

divining for water certainly works.
I have no reason to suppose some other forms don't work.

Science has no accepted explanation.
Religions often de bunk it as the work of the devil.
I am quite happy to accept it as it is... till it is explained in a scientific way.

 

[Willamena]

It works simply because people associate things with other things in a meaningful way, and that's especially so for apparently random and arbitrary things. The world is supposed to make sense; if it doesn't, we make it make sense.

 

[michel]

O.K, if I ever had any credibility here, I guess it is about to fly through the window............

I am convinced that I have a (?) rational explanation for divining (be it for water or any other material), radiesthesia (my Father's Father was a practitioner of this, and used it in tandem with homeopathy to cure people); I studied this when in my early twenties, and became reasonably competent.

Think of a radar; how does it work? It emits a pretty strong signal that it focuses in a particular direction. When that signal "hits" something which it is unable to penetrate, it bounces back; the returning signal is what alerts the radar to a "score".

The Human cerebellum is - for all intents and purposes - a biological computer.

For each thought, and each action, thousands of small currents create neural pathways that will be repeated whenever that same thought is "thought". wherever there is a discharge of electrical currents, that go through a circuit (of some sorts), there is an electromagnetic field - and that EM Field can be and is (with practice) focused - just like the Radar. It doesn't take long to see how this can explain telepathy (the brain can equally well receive and interpret a magnetic field), psychokinesis, where we "broadcast" a signal that will "bounce off the material that we want"...in theory, and with application, with practice, it is possible to make that signal so strong that it will move the object (just like two magnets with equal poles presented to each other).

Wherever there is electric current flow, there is an electromagnetic field - if that field should be presented to a receiver ( a gadget that will react to an EM field and reproduce a similar rendition as the thought that made the field by another person), we have telepathy.

Add to that the "chi", and you have an immensely powerful "carrier wave"; from there, well, "£the world is your oyster".

 

[Guitar's Cry]

I see divination as working the same way as psychological projective tests, such as the ink blot test or the TAT. Meaning is attributed to things that may or may be arbitrary. It forces one to focus on the issues at hand and brings up answers that may not have been considered consciously.

I also see it as possible that the brain is able to calculate future events through an understanding of the cause and effect relationship of the present and past environments. I often have psychic dreams, and wonder if that may be the reason why.

It could also be that the interconnectedness of everything goes beyond the material. Perhaps there is an interconnected consciousness as well...

I think the other responses are good as well, especially Michel's.

 

[michel]

I see divination as working the same way as psychological projective tests, such as the ink blot test or the TAT. Meaning is attributed to things that may or may be arbitrary. It forces one to focus on the issues at hand and brings up answers that may not have been considered consciously.

I also see it as possible that the brain is able to calculate future events through an understanding of the cause and effect relationship of the present and past environments. I often have psychic dreams, and wonder if that may be the reason why.

It could also be that the interconnectedness of everything goes beyond the material. Perhaps there is an interconnected consciousness as well...

I think the other responses are good as well, especially Michel's.

Thanks! I think that you're the first person whio hasn't laughed out loud......:bow:

 

[d.]

Science has no accepted explanation.

it is very easy to explain.

http://www.randi.org/library/dowsing/

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Thanks! I think that you're the first person whio hasn't laughed out loud......:bow:

I actually saw a Ghost Hunters episode (A TV show here in the states that investigates ghostly phenomena scientifically) where a medium was talking to one of the investigators. There was an infrared video camera going along with the normal camera. It showed a burst of the normal heat energy of the medium reaching out for the investigator whenever a forecast was made.

That seems to work with your theory...

 

[Guitar's Cry]

it is very easy to explain.

http://www.randi.org/library/dowsing/

The ideomotor effect is interesting, but how does it explain the success of the psyche at actually finding the water?

 

[Willamena]

it is very easy to explain.

http://www.randi.org/library/dowsing/

While I'm a fan of Randi, I have to say that in that particular article he provided no explanation. "...power of belief..." and "...trick of the mind..." are phrases that are essentially meaningless as far as explanations go.

 

[michel]

I actually saw a Ghost Hunters episode (A TV show here in the states that investigates ghostly phenomena scientifically) where a medium was talking to one of the investigators. There was an infrared video camera going along with the normal camera. It showed a burst of the normal heat energy of the medium reaching out for the investigator whenever a forecast was made.

That seems to work with your theory...

Oh, I could give you loads of examples of things that I have seen which could be put down to my theories.

To a point that it whay I dismiss words like "Supernatural" or "Magic" - to me these are all part of nature, but at a level too high for our understanding at the moment.

 

[d.]

While I'm a fan of Randi, I have to say that in that particular article he provided no explanation. "...power of belief..." and "...trick of the mind..." are phrases that are essentially meaningless as far as explanations go.

only if there actually were any successful dowsers. since noone yet has been verified as such, what further explanation is needed?

from the site :

[FONT=arial, helvetica]"The bottom line is that they all fail, when properly and fairly tested. There are no exceptions. Even after they have clearly and definitely failed, they always continue to believe in their powers. Why should this be so?"[/FONT]
​

 

[Guitar's Cry]

only if there actually were any successful dowsers. since noone yet has been verified as such, what further explanation is needed?

from the site :

[FONT=arial, helvetica]"The bottom line is that they all fail, when properly and fairly tested. There are no exceptions. Even after they have clearly and definitely failed, they always continue to believe in their powers. Why should this be so?"[/FONT]
​

I find this fascinating, actually. I come from a family of dowsers. I've never tried it myself, but my grandfather is so accurate with it that well-drilling companies in the area will hire him to find water.

So I wonder where the source of his accuracy comes from. Is it from experience of knowing where to find water underground? Either way, if dowsing is the crutch that brings out this knowledge, it works for him.

 

[Willamena]

[FONT=arial, helvetica]"The bottom line is that they all fail, when properly and fairly tested. There are no exceptions. Even after they have clearly and definitely failed, they always continue to believe in their powers. Why should this be so?"[/FONT]

"Properly and fairly..." And that's where the "test" departs from divination, which happens spontaneously. In other words, whatever they are testing for, it is not divinatory in nature.

 

[d.]

Either way, if dowsing is the crutch that brings out this knowledge, it works for him.

i agree, definitely.

 

[d.]

"Properly and fairly..." And that's where the "test" departs from divination, which happens spontaneously.

they are testing people who claim to be able to dowse more or less whenever. if certain conditions have to be met, they're met if they do not allow for cheating.

the test is not a test of whether dowsing (or other 'supernatural practices') are in some way beneficial for the dowser or the people around him, mentally or socially, but whether they can actually find what they claim they can find.

so of course divination 'works' in the sense you describe :

people associate things with other things in a meaningful way, and that's especially so for apparently random and arbitrary things.

​

and that might give them any kind of mental stimulation and/or entertainment. but if people claim to be able to foretell events that are about to happen, or find things with special sticks, i don't see the problem of testing their claims.

 

[Willamena]

A good example of divination can be found this article by Carl Raschke on the Emergent church, where he talks about 'spotting' the Kingdom of God.

If Ludwig Feurbach in the early-19th century provided the founding charter for liberal theology with his statement “all theology must become anthropology,” perhaps Singe, et. al. inspire us to come up with a postmodern, post-liberal, post-ontological, post-emergent ecclesiology (in the original sense of that word as “the word that calls us together”), whose precept would be: “All theology must become eschatology.” It’s not about reading new books. It’s about going out into the “wilderness” and becoming present to the Presence that desires to break forth in strange, if not nuanced, ways. There is no practical formula for how to kingdom spot any more than one can look on the Internet for the time and place to catch a glimpse of a rare and elusive bird on its migratory flight path. The kingdom “breaks in,” as it did in Jesus’ time, often in ways we least anticipate.

As Ron was explaining this concept, I at first didn’t get it. In my struggle I asked, “So is this sort of like spiritual birdwatching?” I thought I was being clever, but within seconds after I made that slightly cynical jest the Presence presented itself. As Ron smiled in silence and there was a pause in the conversation, all of a sudden I heard a tapping at the big picture window in front of us that looked out on a deep, green forest. It was a woodpecker. Woodpeckers usually don’t peck at glass and aluminum picture windows, and especially not at that sort of precise, well-timed instant. There is something far more glorious about how God worked in that epiphany than in the Ramboesque “glorious appearing” of Christ at the last moment in the Left Behind series.

We didn’t need to talk about the topic any more. I got it!

The divination demonstrated here is typical of all readings, where one is presented with signs --whether in the form of fixed symbols (lots, cards, i ching) randomly drawn, natural images that appear spontaeously (clouds, birds), hand-writing, etc. --and "simply gets" a realisation. In that moment something abstract becomes something real to them, and interpretation of the event becomes a very real message that 'speaks' to an individual and upon which they will shape their world.

Such messages happen in small ways to everyone, every day.

 

[Willamena]

they are testing people who claim to be able to dowse more or less whenever. if certain conditions have to be met, they're met if they do not allow for cheating.

Just so; and Randi's done occultism a tremendous service by weeding out popular misconceptions and charlatanism. But dowsing still works, and the only "proper test" for divination is in it working for a individual.

the test is not a test of whether dowsing (or other 'supernatural practices') are in some way beneficial for the dowser or the people around him, mentally or socially, but whether they can actually find what they claim they can find.

so of course divination 'works' in the sense you describe :

people associate things with other things in a meaningful way, and that's especially so for apparently random and arbitrary things.​

and that might give them any kind of mental stimulation and/or entertainment. but if people claim to be able to foretell events that are about to happen, or find things with special sticks, i don't see the problem of testing their claims.

Good enough.

 

[Reverend Rick]

If Divination is not real, why is it mentioned in the bible?

Alister Crowley proved that Divination was real when he solved a postal robbery.

I can attest that Divination is very real by my personal practice with the art.

 

[d.]

If Divination is not real, why is it mentioned in the bible?