Why do you dislike Islam?

[Father Heathen]

Yeah but I'm not sure we are praying to the same God. As a Christian I believe I am praying to the one and only real God.

The perception and portrayal maybe be different, but both follow the abrahamic god. It's like arguing over which between Frank Miller's and Alan Moore's is the "real" Batman.

 

[syo]

they are fanatics.

 

[gottalovemoses]

they are fanatics.

where's the agree button

 

[Dawnofhope]

Muslim nations have far better security and freedom than the west - that is until - the West meddles in their national affairs. I can cite example after example throughout the course of modern history, since the Balfour Declaration was signed almost exactly 100 years ago now.

Peace and security are very relative terms. Here is one standard where Western countries do well and Islamic countries not so well.

Global Peace Index - Wikipedia

Much of the world up until WWI was run by European Colonial powers. Do you think the Ottoman and Persian empires were better examples? The world has gone through a radical transformation since then.

The discussion about the relative peace and prosperity of individual nations and empires is always complicated. The fact is we are increasingly interdependant and what one country does affects many other countries.

I appreciate there are longstanding and unresolved issues in the Middle East, especially in regards to Palestine. It seems to fuel endless strife for all of us.

That's because the West is not run by Muslims, or Christians - but secular leaders who couldn't care less what happened to the nations they govern.

I wouldn't be so cynical about secular leaders that run countries which do very well on the global peace index I provided. I live in one of them (New Zealand) and many people, including Muslims want to live here.

Have you got a better objective measure?

 

[Mohsen]

Peace and security are very relative terms. Here is one standard where Western countries do well and Islamic countries not so well.

Global Peace Index - Wikipedia

Much of the world up until WWI was run by European Colonial powers. Do you think the Ottoman and Persian empires were better examples? The world has gone through a radical transformation since then.

The discussion about the relative peace and prosperity of individual nations and empires is always complicated. The fact is we are increasingly interdependant and what one country does affects many other countries.

I appreciate there are longstanding and unresolved issues in the Middle East, especially in regards to Palestine. It seems to fuel endless strife for all of us.



I wouldn't be so cynical about secular leaders that run countries which do very well on the global peace index I provided. I live in one of them (New Zealand) and many people, including Muslims want to live here.

Have you got a better objective measure?

I'm truly entertained by your post.

You started with "Peace and security are very relative terms. " and then posted the following from wiki - the content of which - was itself "subjective" and not "objective".

I can just as easily end my post, ironically enough, with the following:

Peace and security are very relative terms.

That puts the wiki content, back on the shelf.

Peace

 

[Mohsen]

I wouldn't be so cynical about secular leaders that run countries which do very well on the global peace index I provided. I live in one of them (New Zealand) and many people, including Muslims want to live here.

Have you got a better objective measure?

I named America and Europe - not Australia nor New Zealand - both of which, I find to be lovely places to live in as a Muslim. I have family in both, Australia and NZ. And in America, and I live in Europe!

Australia and NZ are far better places to live in as a Muslim.

Peace

 

[Dawnofhope]

I named America and Europe - not Australia nor New Zealand - both of which, I find to be lovely places to live in as a Muslim. I have family in both, Australia and NZ. And in America, and I live in Europe!

Australia and NZ are far better places to live in as a Muslim.

Peace

In New Zealand our Muslim population has never caused any trouble and fit in well.

Australia had had a few incidents but relative to the population it minor.

We're more worried about escalating tensions between North Korea and USA than the Muslims.

Where are your family from, if you don't mind me asking.

 

[LuisDantas]

Some groups of Muslims (sects) may need reforming, Islam does not! Christianity and Islam are not comparable in the way you seem to think. Christianity has many competing theologies, and this is something which Islam has never suffered!

Peace

Islaam very much needs reforming, as your own posts will exemplify right ahead when I quote them. It is not likely to survive that reform in recognizable form, but that is not a bad thing.

Hmmm, sounds interesting for a so called liberal moderate "infidel" to have issues with what others believe!!! Why would you care? People have a choice to believe or disbelieve in what they like - you should not worry about another's choice - just care for your own!

How is that for irony. You are the one claiming that a scripture that specifies restricted rights for non-adherents is eternally perfect and relevant, aren't you? Therefore you should accept the unavoidable consequence that every non-Muslims is entitled to challenge and care about your views.

(...)


This calls for a Picard Facepalm.

It actually does, but certainly not for the reason that you claim.

Then you shouldn't have a problem with Islam

Peace

Are those Muslims who consistently tell me that Islaam does not accept LGBT all mistaken, then? Really?

Tell me more about that, please.

 

[Mohsen]

In New Zealand our Muslim population has never caused any trouble and fit in well.

Australia had had a few incidents but relative to the population it minor.

We're more worried about escalating tensions between North Korea and USA than the Muslims.

Where are your family from, if you don't mind me asking.

My parents are both Indian. I, myself, am classed as "British" when I visit India. In London, where I live, I'm just another Muslim, care not for where I'm from.

I'm pleased you asked. It's refreshing that someone takes an interest in where I am from instead of what faith I am from, for once.

Are you originally from the UK?

God bless

 

[Kuzcotopia]

First, if you're going to ask for criticisms, and you want to answer them. Fine.

But I don't think you're winning any points by engaging in whatabotism with Judaism and Christianity. . . . Obviously, they have histories of violence too, but you don't do yourself any favors by ignoring the doctrines of your own faith that lead there, or by saying that others are "just as bad." Address the violence directly.

How is it culturally primitive?

Do you understand it is because of Islam we have a resurgence of philosophy, math, the sciences etc.

This is a claim you're going to have to demonstrate with a little evidence first. I happen to think The theology and doctrine discourages these ideas.

My Big Beef with Islam:

Chapter 1: Beliefs About Sharia

This link send you to a Pew Research poll that finds the overwhelming majority of Muslims in many countries think that there is exactly ONE interpretation of the Quran, and that Sharia law is a great idea and should be implemented.

It lays out how many Muslims are in favor of Stone Age punishments for crimes, such a theft. It also lays out how many Muslims prefer people should be punished, Stine Age style, for things that are NOT crimes, such as adultery and leaving the faith.

Based on the survey results, these are not minority viewpoints in many Muslim countries. They even found a correlation between the extremety of these views and how often they prayed. . . Loosely suggesting that the more adherence you have, the more you believe that the Quran should be the law of the land, and those aubjugated by it should be stoned to death for things that are not even crimes in secular societies.

If the majority of Muslims believe these things, and based on the survey it's overwhelming that the do, then Islam itself has some very backward, cultural problems that need to be addressed globally before you can claim a "resurgence of science and philosophy."

 

[Mohsen]

Afternoon LuisDantas

Islaam very much needs reforming, as your own posts will exemplify right ahead when I quote them. It is not likely to survive that reform in recognizable form, but that is not a bad thing.

No, certain Muslim groups - such as ISIS need some reforming. And I don't mean in the guise of more guerilla camps either.

How is that for irony. You are the one claiming that a scripture that specifies restricted rights for non-adherents is eternally perfect and relevant, aren't you? Therefore you should accept the unavoidable consequence that every non-Muslims is entitled to challenge and care about your views.

You are severely mistaken. Non Muslims are allowed to govern themselves in Muslim nations. As long as they do not cause friction in Muslim society which would otherwise lead to random acts of violence or upset the delicate fabric of that society - the Christians, can rule themselves, the Jews, themselves etc.

Did you not know this?

Jerusalem was ruled by Muslims for hundreds of years, and the Christians had their own laws which they lived by, the Jews theirs. And the Muslims, their own too. Islam gives others their rights and lets them rule according to their own beliefs, as long as those beliefs are equitably practiced and corruption isn't called for by the adherents of the people of that belief.

It actually does, but certainly not for the reason that you claim.

I believe the irony is lost on you LuisDantas. I'm hardly surprised, your ill researched post proves you don't really have what it takes to make a point which can stick! Oh look - that irony is back!

Are those Muslims who consistently tell me that Islaam does not accept LGBT all mistaken, then? Really?

Tell me more about that, please.

Sure. I can oblige. According to Shafi'ie school of thought, a Ma'boon, or Maktub (someone who is either asexual or homosexual) can lead the worship prayers and the Muslims have to pray behind the lead - the lead must, however, be living righteously, be appropriately educated to lead in prayer/worship and not engage in extra-marital affairs. And because a gay person cannot marry in Islam, all sexual contact is forbidden... which really, isn't any more different to the laws applicable to a straight person who is unmarried.

How's that for fair?

Peace

 

[Dawnofhope]

My parents are both Indian. I, myself, am classed as "British" when I visit India. In London, where I live, I'm just another Muslim, care not for where I'm from.

I'm pleased you asked. It's refreshing that someone takes an interest in where I am from instead of what faith I am from, for once.

Are you originally from the UK?

God bless

My parents are from England and Ireland. My wifes parents are from England and Japan. We have many people from the UK here and India too.

We are all just people after all. One people sharing the earth regardless of our background.

We don't talk about religion much in NZ. Baha'i believe in the same God and OT as the Jews, the same gospel and Jesus as the Christians, and the same Qu'ran and God as the Muslims. The Jews, Christians, and Muslims will often see it differently. Thats fine as long as its a civilised discussion.

Its good to have you here on RF and I hope to see more constructive conversations that include Muslims such as yourself in the future.

God Bless

 

[Mohsen]

My parents are from England and Ireland. My wifes parents are from England and Japan. We have many people from the UK here and India too.

We are all just people after all. One people sharing the earth regardless of our background.

We don't talk about religion much in NZ. Baha'i believe in the same God and OT as the Jews, the same gospel and Jesus as the Christians, and the same Qu'ran and God as the Muslims. The Jews, Christians, and Muslims will often see it differently. Thats fine as long as its a civilised discussion.

Its good to have you here on RF and I hope to see more constructive conversations that include Muslims such as yourself in the future.

God Bless

And you too bro! It's nice to engage with good natured people like yourself!

Peace be with you

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Lately I've been annoyed by some of the threads popping up using links regarding the behaviors of other Muslims from across the world or the behaviors of extremist Muslims who commit terrorism justifying their action using doctrine. So I'm curious and wanted to discuss/debate some of the personal issues some people have regarding Islam. I'm not talking about verses but what are your personal issues with Islam and why the continuing issues regarding Islam. As I've told one member, when I came back I started my disagreement with Islamic theology regarding pre-determinism. My disagreement was purely philosophical other than that I have no personal issues with Islam other than a few philosophical/theological concepts I just disagree with. So I wanted to create a thread and allow people to vent their frustrations out here and hopefully correct some errors. I also hope some RF Muslims join in and perhaps answer some issues whether theological or otherwise.

A number of things. Bear in mind I won't just be covering Islam itself but the actions of Muslims and geopolitics related to Islam. I'll try to make a coherent list:

1. Islam isn't just antithetical (I don't mind that; different strokes for different folks, after all) to my worldview, it's actively hostile towards it. Islam is strongly focussed on obsessed with monotheism (no Islamic country allows polytheists the right to practice their religion freely & safely), submission and quiescence in the face of the divine (to the point where calling oneself 'a slave of Allah' is seen as virtuous), predestination (yet somehow we magically have free will and will still be punished for not accepting Islam even though it's actually out of our hands 'Allah guides whom he wills and confounds whom he wills', after all), homophobia, misogyny, sexual segregation and rigidly enforced gender roles;
2. Islam's encouragement of behaviours it condemns when exhibited by others: using the Black Stone of the Kaaba as a ritual focus during the Hajj (do this in another faith and you're labelled an idolater), excessive devotion of Muhammad (yet Christians are accused of worshipping the created) which evolves into loving him more than one's own living family, murderous violence against those who don't respect him (Charlie Hebdo and Jyllands-Posten);
3. Islam's tendency to demand respect and deference for itself that it refuses to reciprocate. For instance, Islamic countries are working in concert at the UN to try and silence criticism of Islam via global blasphemy laws;
4. Islam's tendency towards imperialism (something that is never talked about in light of the West's history of the same). It's often forgotten that there were numerous Islamic empires which spanned North Africa, the Levant and Asia;
5. Islam views members of other religions as second-class citizens as a matter of course. If you're not killed for refusing to convert (polytheists) you're extorted for protection money under threat of violence (jizyah);
6. Islam has a tendency towards promoting anti-Semitism. For instance, hatred for Bahais stems somewhat from the fact that they are accused of being a Jewish conspiracy against the ummah;
7. Islam tends to foster an inability among its adherents to accept or even entertain criticisms of the faith as valid. Any problems with Islam are either a) the result of Islamophobia or; b) someone else's fault. Usually it's down to the West or the Jews. It's a requisite belief that the religion is perfect and doesn't need reform (we already have at least one post in this very thread saying as much);
8. Because of the aforementioned belief that Islam is perfect, innovation is viewed with hostility. As such, Islam as a belief system has stagnated - it's not evolving or improving - it has just stopped. It's stuck 1400 years in the past and seems unlikely to change;
9. Again, because of the aforementioned belief that Islam is perfect, Muslims tend to disown problems stemming at least in part from the
10. The belief of aniconism, central to Islam, often blossoms into iconoclasm; particularly in relation to other faiths. Buddhist, Christian Confucian, Shinto, Hindu and other Pagan imagery has been subject to destruction, vandalism and threats of such as a result;
11. The tendency of Muslims and Islam's apologists to engage in whataboutery whenever someone levels a criticism against Islam;
12. The tendency of Muslims and Islam's apologists to lazily conflate criticism of Islam or parts of Islam with bigotry and attacks on Muslims;
    
13. The Islamic world's rejection of human rights as exemplified by the creation of an Islamic parallel to the UNHDR - the CDHRI;
14. The fact that in Western societies are allowing Islam's more openly intolerant forms such as Wahhabism to enjoy rights such as freedom of religion - rights it readily denies others when given the chance;
15. The notion that a bunch of 7th Century desert barbarians were more civilised than the empires they conquered (Byzantine & Persian);
16. The disingenuous nature of Islamic apologetics here on RF. Sahih ahadith are treated like Schrodinger's scriptures. At any given moment, ahadith like Bukhari or Muslim are simultaneously trustworthy and not trustworthy. The tendency to engage in whataboutery in defence of Islam. The tendency to accuse people of quoting Quran verses out of context even though a) the Quran is eternally true and; b) the surrounding verses sometimes don't lend context to the verse being quoted. Then to top it off, Islamic apologists start quoting verses from other faiths in a similar 'out of context' manner in the same 'whataboutist' manner as before.

 

[sayak83]

I named America and Europe - not Australia nor New Zealand - both of which, I find to be lovely places to live in as a Muslim. I have family in both, Australia and NZ. And in America, and I live in Europe!

Australia and NZ are far better places to live in as a Muslim.

Peace

Which Muslim majority country is a better place to live than UK or USA?
Since you live in UK, do you have any first hand experience of how is it like living in any Muslim majority country? Especially, do you have interactions with minorities who live in Muslim majority countries regarding what it's like to live there?

 

[Mohsen]

Which Muslim majority country is a better place to live than UK or USA?
Since you live in UK, do you have any first hand experience of how is it like living in any Muslim majority country? Especially, do you have interactions with minorities who live in Muslim majority countries regarding what it's like to live there?

Yes, Egypt is nice, Gambia is lovely and Morocco is brilliant. I've also lived in the kingdom of Saudi Arabia and that wasn't as bad as we are led to believe!

Typed this from my phone while having lunch - I'll give you a more in depth post a little later.

 

[sayak83]

Yes, Egypt is nice, Gambia is lovely and Morocco is brilliant. I've also lived in the kingdom of Saudi Arabia and that wasn't as bad as we are led to believe!

How precisely is Egypt, Gambia and Morocco better than UK or USA?
Also the question about minorities.

For example, if I value individual freedom, then the countries you mentioned are significantly worse off than UK or USA

About Freedom in the World | Freedom House

If we are discussing ethics, it's appropriate to consider how Muslim majority countries in general have been able to deliver on the UN human rights charter, don't you think?

Universal Declaration of Human Rights

 

[Looncall]

How is it culturally primitive?

Do you understand it is because of Islam we have a resurgence of philosophy, math, the sciences etc. But I, along with my parents, parents, would disagree on being culturally primitive I mean, what about the trans-atlantic slave trade and its justification using the Christian Bible? millions of humans were enslaved and forced to convert or die. Not saying this is not in Islamic history but Christianity I think has more blood on its hands than any other faith in the world.

Math, science etc? Come off it. Islam explicitly abandoned those in favour of ignorance and superstition. Muslim countries make very little contribution in those (or any other) fields.

 

[Mohsen]

@sayak83

Egypt, Morocco and Gambia have respect for their minority groups and allow them to exist on a fairly even basis when compared to my experience as a Muslim living in the UK. For example, for me to get a job, I suffer a type of closet islamophobia.

Take for example, how the beeb investigated this and found that Muslims are twice as likely to be sidelined for interiews when compared with any other group in the UK.

In Egypt, that's never the case, and people of other minorities get jobs based on their ability to fulfil the role - and not their religious preference or lack thereof.

In Morocco it's the same.

In Gambia, the same.

In the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia - they actually prefer ex-pats to Muslims, unless the ex-pat is a Muslim.

Regarding your point about freedom. Defining freedom is a two way street. On the one hand you have the western libertarian brand of it, which allows your mother to dress like a garden tool if she so wishes - yet find it unsafe to walk the streets at night. On the other hand, you have Muslim nations in which a Jewellery Store Owner can leave his wares on display, and leave his shop without locking it while he goes to the mosque down the street for evening prayers - and return to his shop to find everything as it should be.

I argue, safety should never be compromised for the sake of freedom and the Modern West has failed to provide that level of safety as a social norm where I live in the UK.

So, if you were to sponsor the West's version of what "freedom" is, then I would have to s****** and jest that you are a libertarian who doesn't have a clue what they are defending and ranting about.

Now, for your final point. The universal declaration of Human rights. I guess the Prophet pbuh last sermon was lost on you there too. Or the fact that Cyrus in the 6th century BCE, was the first to develop such, and he was no "westerner". This idea of "Universal Human Rights" is not an alien concept in the middle east - Muslims are well aware of it - it is the Modern West which treats it like an anomaly, because it is! The Universal Humans Rights are a novelty for the West, the West thinks it has the monopoly on it - truth is - the West is only just catching up to the equitable nature of the Middle East in this, the 20th Century. And that, while thinking it (the West) is still "imperially majestic". Can't have your cake and eat it my dear!

peace

 

[Mohsen]

Math, science etc? Come off it. Islam explicitly abandoned those in favour of ignorance and superstition. Muslim countries make very little contribution in those (or any other) fields.

Nope. You are showing how you actually don't know much at all. Modern day Muslims have not forgotten the traditions they revived during the time Europeans had self termed "The Dark Ages". Who said the Muslim Golden Age is over?

Were you not aware of the likes of Pakistani Physicist and Nobel Prize winner, Abdus Salaam? Or how about Iranian Physicists, Ali Javan and Mahmoud Hessaby? or Munir Nafyeh - the Palestinian Particle Physicist?, or Mathematician Masatoshi Gunduz Ikeda? Cahit Arf? Anyone? damn... let's move to another field, like Muhammad Yunus, another Nobel Prize winner, and pioneering inventor of Micro-finance? how about Aktar Hameed Khan the Pioneer of Micro-Credit? you really think the mathematicians and scientists are done with in the Muslim world? I have a massively long list of names I can drop here to quell your ignorance on such matters.

peace