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Why do you dislike Islam?

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
Especially for someone who isn't a Muslim and doesn't know as much about the religion as a practising Muslim ;)


I actually know a lot about Islam as I've studied Kalam, I have a transliteration of the Qur'an. I've read the Shari'ah Law (although not in depth like law students). This is why I'm answering but it gets frustrating that people think Shari'ah Law is just about punishment. It become rhetorical and I find myself repeating myself that is what is frustrating. I show links but its not good enough so what it boils down to it is people do not what an alternative point of view they want to believe what they want to believe.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
No. For one I'm not a lawyer. Two, many of you are too stupid to undertsnad it as it expands beyond punishment and that punishment and the execution of it differs in schools of thought. Three, punishment does not define Shari'ah Law. You guys need to stop watching news.
Are you denying that many Muslims nations have laws and a significant fraction of Muslims in Middle East, South Asia, Sub Saharan Africa support laws that say

a) Apostasy from Islam should punishable by death ot long imprisonment?
b) Blasphemy or criticism of Islam is punishable by imprisonment or corporal punishment?
c) Adultery is to be punished by stoning?
d) Homosexuality is punishable by imprisonment?

Are you denying this is the case? Simple yes or no would do.
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
Are you denying that many Muslims nations have laws and a significant fraction of Muslims in Middle East, South Asia, Sub Saharan Africa support laws that say

a) Apostasy from Islam should punishable by death ot long imprisonment?
b) Blasphemy or criticism of Islam is punishable by imprisonment or corporal punishment?
c) Adultery is to be punished by stoning?
d) Homosexuality is punishable by imprisonment?

Are you denying this is the case? Simple yes or no would do.

I'm not denying anything because I do not have a copy of Shari'ah Law. Again why are we focused on punishment? SMH

See the following (I don't like Wikipedia for discussions like this)

"Although there is some disagreement about which crimes are hudud crimes, they usually include theft, highway robbery, zina (sex with forbidden partners), falsely accusing someone of zina, and drinking alcohol. The prescribed punishments for these crimes range from 80 lashes to death. However, classical jurists developed very strict rules which restrict when these punishments could be applied, so that in many cases it became almost impossible to convict anyone under these rules. For example, there must be four adult male Muslim witnesses to a hudud crime or a confession repeated four times, before someone can be punished. If a criminal could not be convicted of a hudud crime, they could still receive a tazir punishment."

Regarding Non-Muslims


"Non-Muslim communities living under Islamic rule were allowed to follow their own laws. The government kept out of their internal legal affairs, except when there was a dispute between people of different religions. Such cases were handled by a qadi.[2] When that happened, sharia rules gave Muslims some legal advantages over non-Muslims. However, non-Muslims often won cases against Muslims and even against high government officials, because people thought that sharia was a reflection of divine justice which should defend the weak against the powerful."

Regarding A)

"The kind of apostasy which the jurists generally deemed punishable was of the political kind, although there were considerable legal differences of opinion on this matter. Wael Hallaq states that "[in] a culture whose lynchpin is religion, religious principles and religious morality, apostasy is in some way equivalent to high treason in the modern nation-state".[16] Nevertheless, Muslim jurists from the early period, from different Muslim denominations and schools of thought, developed legal institutions to circumvent harsh punishment in cases of allegations or charges of apostasy. These institutions set the standard for what counts as apostasy from Islam so high that at least prior to the 11th century practically no judgment of apostasy could be passed.

According to Abdul Rashied Omar, the majority of modern Islamic jurists continue to regard apostasy as a crime deserving the death penalty.[12] Some regard apostasy in Islam as a form of religious crime, although others do not.[4][5][18] Others argue that the death penalty is an inappropriate punishment,[19][20][21][22] inconsistent with the Qur'anic injunctions such as Quran 88:21–22[23] or "no compulsion in religion"

Regarding B)

"
Blasphemy, derived from the Latin Blasphemia, is generally defined as the exhibition of irreverent behaviour or language towards God, religion or anything held sacred. It is a sensitive issue for many, especially those who have an unshakeable faith in their beliefs, religious leaders, holy book, places of worship and rituals.

What acts can be deemed ‘irreverent’, how those who carry out such acts should be punished, and what role the law should play in preventing blasphemy are questions that have instigated huge debate and controversy. Images of certain Muslim groups who adopt harsh punishments against people apparently blaspheming against Islam or turning apostate are displayed horrifically by the Western media. Seeing people being beaten and murdered for the crime of blasphemy has left a deep impact upon the Western World.

Unfortunately, certain misguided Muslim groups are attributing teachings to Islam that have nothing whatsoever to do with it; the media happily relay these stories to the world without considering the fact that such acts are not representative of Islam’s true teachings.

Islam does not only condemn the blaspheming of God. It also protects the feelings of polytheists, by forbidding Muslims from attacking their idols. On this point, the Holy Qur’an states:

And revile not those whom they call upon beside Allah, lest they, out of spite, revile Allah in their ignorance.… (Ch.6:V.109)

Discussing this issue, Hadhrat Mirza Tahir Ahmad(ru) (1928-2003), the fourth Khalifa of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, writes in his book Islam’s Response to Contemporary Issues:

‘Blasphemy: Islam goes one step further than any other religion in granting man the freedom of speech and expression. Blasphemy is condemned on moral and ethical grounds, no doubt, but no physical punishment is prescribed for blasphemy in Islam despite the commonly held view in the contemporary world."

See:http://www.reviewofreligions.org/5002/what-is-the-punishment-for-blasphemy-in-islam/

Regarding C...(Back to Wikipedia)

"According to traditional jurisprudence, zina must be proved by testimony of four eyewitnesses to the actual act of penetration, or a confession repeated four times and not retracted later.[2][1] The Maliki legal school also allows an unmarried woman's pregnancy to be used as evidence, but the punishment can be averted by a number of legal "semblances" (shubuhat), such as existence of an invalid marriage contract.
Islam requires evidence before a man or a woman can be punished for zināʾ. These are:[36][page needed][14][43]

  1. A Muslim confesses to zina four separate times. However, if the confessor takes back his words before the punishment is enforced or during the punishment, he/she will be released and set free. The confessor is in fact encouraged to take back their confession.[44][45][46]
  2. Four adult males who are held to be righteous and were never known to neglect a religious obligation or indulge in sin testifying that they all simultaneously observed the couple engaged in unlawful sexual intercourse without any doubt or ambiguity. They are able to say that they saw their private parts meet like the Kohl needle entering the Kohl bottle.[44]
  3. If the four witnesses take back their testimony before the actual punishment is enforced, then the punishment will be abandoned, and they (witnesses) will be punished for the crime of false accusation.[44]
  4. The witnesses are not allowed to delay their testimony from the time of the incident to the time of testifying. If they delayed testifying in the courts, the punishment will not be enforced, unless they were very distant from the Imam hence the delay was due to them travelling to the Imam.[44]
If a pregnant woman confesses that her baby was born from an illegal relationship then she will be subject to conviction in the Islamic courts. In cases where there are no witnesses and no confession then the woman will not receive punishment just because of pregnancy. Women can fall pregnant without committing illegal sexual intercourse. A woman could be raped or coerced. In this case, she is a victim and not the perpetrator of a crime. Therefore, she cannot be punished or even accused of misconduct merely on the strength of her falling pregnant."

Regarding D...(Still on Wikipedia)

"However, there are different interpretations of the last verse where who the Quran refers to as "two among you". Pakistani scholar Javed Ahmed Ghamidi sees it as a reference to premarital sexual relationships between men and women. In his opinion, the preceding Ayat of Sura Nisa deals with prostitutes of the time. He believes these rulings were temporary and were abrogated later when a functioning state was established and society was ready for permanent rulings, which came in Sura Nur, Ayat 2 and 3, prescribing flogging as a punishment for adultery. He does not see stoning as a prescribed punishment, even for married men, and considers the Hadiths quoted supporting that view to be dealing with either rape or prostitution, where the strictest punishment under Islam for spreading "fasad fil arz", meaning mischief in the land, referring to egregious acts of defiance to the rule of law was carried out."

Now that I have done the research we don't need to discuss this...
 

Notanumber

A Free Man
No. For one I'm not a lawyer. Two, many of you are too stupid to undertsnad it as it expands beyond punishment and that punishment and the execution of it differs in schools of thought. Three, punishment does not define Shari'ah Law. You guys need to stop watching news.

In other words, us guys should be like sheep to the slaughter, but that is no longer a humane death because of Halal.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm not denying anything because I do not have a copy of Shari'ah Law. Again why are we focused on punishment? SMH

See the following (I don't like Wikipedia for discussions like this)

"Although there is some disagreement about which crimes are hudud crimes, they usually include theft, highway robbery, zina (sex with forbidden partners), falsely accusing someone of zina, and drinking alcohol. The prescribed punishments for these crimes range from 80 lashes to death. However, classical jurists developed very strict rules which restrict when these punishments could be applied, so that in many cases it became almost impossible to convict anyone under these rules. For example, there must be four adult male Muslim witnesses to a hudud crime or a confession repeated four times, before someone can be punished. If a criminal could not be convicted of a hudud crime, they could still receive a tazir punishment."

Regarding Non-Muslims


"Non-Muslim communities living under Islamic rule were allowed to follow their own laws. The government kept out of their internal legal affairs, except when there was a dispute between people of different religions. Such cases were handled by a qadi.[2] When that happened, sharia rules gave Muslims some legal advantages over non-Muslims. However, non-Muslims often won cases against Muslims and even against high government officials, because people thought that sharia was a reflection of divine justice which should defend the weak against the powerful."

Regarding A)

"The kind of apostasy which the jurists generally deemed punishable was of the political kind, although there were considerable legal differences of opinion on this matter. Wael Hallaq states that "[in] a culture whose lynchpin is religion, religious principles and religious morality, apostasy is in some way equivalent to high treason in the modern nation-state".[16] Nevertheless, Muslim jurists from the early period, from different Muslim denominations and schools of thought, developed legal institutions to circumvent harsh punishment in cases of allegations or charges of apostasy. These institutions set the standard for what counts as apostasy from Islam so high that at least prior to the 11th century practically no judgment of apostasy could be passed.

According to Abdul Rashied Omar, the majority of modern Islamic jurists continue to regard apostasy as a crime deserving the death penalty.[12] Some regard apostasy in Islam as a form of religious crime, although others do not.[4][5][18] Others argue that the death penalty is an inappropriate punishment,[19][20][21][22] inconsistent with the Qur'anic injunctions such as Quran 88:21–22[23] or "no compulsion in religion"

Regarding B)

"
Blasphemy, derived from the Latin Blasphemia, is generally defined as the exhibition of irreverent behaviour or language towards God, religion or anything held sacred. It is a sensitive issue for many, especially those who have an unshakeable faith in their beliefs, religious leaders, holy book, places of worship and rituals.

What acts can be deemed ‘irreverent’, how those who carry out such acts should be punished, and what role the law should play in preventing blasphemy are questions that have instigated huge debate and controversy. Images of certain Muslim groups who adopt harsh punishments against people apparently blaspheming against Islam or turning apostate are displayed horrifically by the Western media. Seeing people being beaten and murdered for the crime of blasphemy has left a deep impact upon the Western World.

Unfortunately, certain misguided Muslim groups are attributing teachings to Islam that have nothing whatsoever to do with it; the media happily relay these stories to the world without considering the fact that such acts are not representative of Islam’s true teachings.

Islam does not only condemn the blaspheming of God. It also protects the feelings of polytheists, by forbidding Muslims from attacking their idols. On this point, the Holy Qur’an states:

And revile not those whom they call upon beside Allah, lest they, out of spite, revile Allah in their ignorance.… (Ch.6:V.109)

Discussing this issue, Hadhrat Mirza Tahir Ahmad(ru) (1928-2003), the fourth Khalifa of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, writes in his book Islam’s Response to Contemporary Issues:

‘Blasphemy: Islam goes one step further than any other religion in granting man the freedom of speech and expression. Blasphemy is condemned on moral and ethical grounds, no doubt, but no physical punishment is prescribed for blasphemy in Islam despite the commonly held view in the contemporary world."

See:http://www.reviewofreligions.org/5002/what-is-the-punishment-for-blasphemy-in-islam/

Regarding C...(Back to Wikipedia)

"According to traditional jurisprudence, zina must be proved by testimony of four eyewitnesses to the actual act of penetration, or a confession repeated four times and not retracted later.[2][1] The Maliki legal school also allows an unmarried woman's pregnancy to be used as evidence, but the punishment can be averted by a number of legal "semblances" (shubuhat), such as existence of an invalid marriage contract.
Islam requires evidence before a man or a woman can be punished for zināʾ. These are:[36][page needed][14][43]

  1. A Muslim confesses to zina four separate times. However, if the confessor takes back his words before the punishment is enforced or during the punishment, he/she will be released and set free. The confessor is in fact encouraged to take back their confession.[44][45][46]
  2. Four adult males who are held to be righteous and were never known to neglect a religious obligation or indulge in sin testifying that they all simultaneously observed the couple engaged in unlawful sexual intercourse without any doubt or ambiguity. They are able to say that they saw their private parts meet like the Kohl needle entering the Kohl bottle.[44]
  3. If the four witnesses take back their testimony before the actual punishment is enforced, then the punishment will be abandoned, and they (witnesses) will be punished for the crime of false accusation.[44]
  4. The witnesses are not allowed to delay their testimony from the time of the incident to the time of testifying. If they delayed testifying in the courts, the punishment will not be enforced, unless they were very distant from the Imam hence the delay was due to them travelling to the Imam.[44]
If a pregnant woman confesses that her baby was born from an illegal relationship then she will be subject to conviction in the Islamic courts. In cases where there are no witnesses and no confession then the woman will not receive punishment just because of pregnancy. Women can fall pregnant without committing illegal sexual intercourse. A woman could be raped or coerced. In this case, she is a victim and not the perpetrator of a crime. Therefore, she cannot be punished or even accused of misconduct merely on the strength of her falling pregnant."

Regarding D...(Still on Wikipedia)

"However, there are different interpretations of the last verse where who the Quran refers to as "two among you". Pakistani scholar Javed Ahmed Ghamidi sees it as a reference to premarital sexual relationships between men and women. In his opinion, the preceding Ayat of Sura Nisa deals with prostitutes of the time. He believes these rulings were temporary and were abrogated later when a functioning state was established and society was ready for permanent rulings, which came in Sura Nur, Ayat 2 and 3, prescribing flogging as a punishment for adultery. He does not see stoning as a prescribed punishment, even for married men, and considers the Hadiths quoted supporting that view to be dealing with either rape or prostitution, where the strictest punishment under Islam for spreading "fasad fil arz", meaning mischief in the land, referring to egregious acts of defiance to the rule of law was carried out."

Now that I have done the research we don't need to discuss this...
You don't understand. Many of us don't really care how various groups interpret shariah. The simple point here is that many of the Muslim majority countries do have these extremely regressive laws that are against the rights and freedoms of people and a lot of Muslims consider them appropriate and in accordance to Shariah. And that is a problem. Unless and until Muslim countries and majority of Muslim folks in these countries once and for all revoke these laws and stop supporting laws that criminalize things like homosexuality, adultery, blasphemy and apostasy with such extreme punishments... the problem is going to remain. I am happy if you are for a liberal and modern interpretation of Islam that honors the basic freedoms and rights of people. The problem we are pointing out is the wide preponderance of illeberal views and laws in the Islamic world and some groups who follow such views in the West as well. That is the problem.
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
You don't understand. Many of us don't really care how various groups interpret shariah. The simple point here is that many of the Muslim majority countries do have these extremely regressive laws that are against the rights and freedoms of people and a lot of Muslims consider them appropriate and in accordance to Shariah. And that is a problem. Unless and until Muslim countries and majority of Muslim folks in these countries once and for all revoke these laws and stop supporting laws that criminalize things like homosexuality, adultery, blasphemy and apostasy with such extreme punishments... the problem is going to remain. I am happy if you are for a liberal and modern interpretation of Islam that honors the basic freedoms and rights of people. The problem we are pointing out is the wide preponderance of illeberal views and laws in the Islamic world and some groups who follow such views in the West as well. That is the problem.

Here lies the crux of your view is you don't care....I offered you facts and alternative views yet you reject it because you are comfortable with your bias. You don't get to dictate what such and such country ought to do. Freedom of expression? Yeah and look what happened Charlottesville when a white nationalists thought it was okay to express his rage by running people over, killing one. I'm liberal as they come, but its people like you that are the problem because you want to tell the world it is wrong if their views don't align with yours. Who are you to tell governments to change their laws because you don't like them? You're a nobody in the grand scheme of things.
 

Notanumber

A Free Man
The question is where are you looking? Are you looking at websites hell bent on demonizing Islam, or are you looking at scholastic material? There is a difference in presentation.

The one thing Islam does not need is demonising, the fact that it is demonic is a given.

I have just heard on the news that there has been an explosion at a train station here in the UK. What is the guessing that it will be Islam related?
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Here lies the crux of your view is you don't care....I offered you facts and alternative views yet you reject it because you are comfortable with your bias. You don't get to dictate what such and such country ought to do. Freedom of expression? Yeah and look what happened Charlottesville when a white nationalists thought it was okay to express his rage by running people over, killing one. I'm liberal as they come, but its people like you that are the problem because you want to tell the world it is wrong if their views don't align with yours. Who are you to tell governments to change their laws because you don't like them? You're a nobody in the grand scheme of things.
Garbage. I take it you don't believe in universal human rights. You can't say you're a liberal while excusing theocracies that violate the rights of others to freedom of speech, religion, expression, gender equality, sexual equality, etc. What, you think it's a form of "cultural imperialism" or some such bs that people from around the world finds barbaric regimes like Saudi Arabia to be reprehensible and want them to become civilized? Do you not think they can do better than that? Why do you apologize for brutal Islamic theocracies?
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
The one thing Islam does not need is demonising, the fact that it is demonic is a given.

I have just heard on the news that there has been an explosion at a train station here in the UK. What is the guessing that it will be Islam related?

A little early for assumptions but then again if you're living in the UK I'm not surprised about your disdain for Islam considering the terrorism going on over there. However don't be blinded by the actions of extremists.
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
Garbage. I take it you don't believe in universal human rights. You can't say you're a liberal while excusing theocracies that violate the rights of others to freedom of speech, religion, expression, gender equality, sexual equality, etc. What, you think it's a form of "cultural imperialism" or some such bs that people from around the world finds barbaric regimes like Saudi Arabia to be reprehensible and want them to become civilized? Do you not think they can do better than that? Why do you apologize for brutal Islamic theocracies?

Why were you in Islam DIR thinking of converting to Islam while knowing that some of these countries were theocratic with questionable governments? HMMMM
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
Because that's the part(s) of Shariah Law that people are appalled by? Because you made this thread to ask us what we dislike about Islam?

I know however I shed some light on perhaps the misinterpretations of punishment and the interpretation of these legal codes yet somehow people skimmed past that fact. If you're incapable of actually looking at someone else's perspective then it becomes a moot effort on my part if people cannot be open minded.
 

Kuzcotopia

If you can read this, you are as lucky as I am.
No the dumb questions were about punishment not about whether you can drink coca cola or smoke Hookah...You guys focused on punishment. I answered it. A lot of you focused on beheadings because I'm sure you've seen Daaesh or ISIS and think their view of Shari'ah Law is accurate. A lot of you thought Osama Bin Laden who wanted to conquer the world which is where the whole Shari'ah Law scare came from, was meant for everyone, I've explained briefly what I know about Shari'ah Law you continue to reject it. So from now on from you please refrain from responding because you are still ignorant despite my links towards you explaining Shari'ah ah. You want to be defiant so there I nothing more I can say so I'd rather avoid you. Perhaps in another discussion we can talk but here I'm drawing the line.

If you want to talk about a set of religious laws and the legal nuances of smoking hookah and drinking soda. . . because you'd rather not deal
with the obvious problems. . . Get thee to the Islam DIR.

But you made a thread in a public space called "Why do you dislike Islam?"

Here, we're going to focus on the substantive issue of the negative consequences of a religious-based legal system where, for whatever reason, the majority of Muslims who want it also have immoral ideas that don't fit well in the global, 21st century community.

Now you could admit that maybe the majority of Muslims simply don't understand Sharia law, the proper role of government, and the concept of secular protections for freedom of religion. I'd accept that, at least.

If you did that, then your response could be to suggest that there could be cultural ways of fixing these perceptions. Maybe the Muslim world needs better secular education, or maybe there are cultural issues of poverty/income inequality, or instability, at play in many of the countries polled.

The ultimate goal is not to condemn Islam here. The goal is to understand that current worship of that religion is producing some troubling perceptions with moral implications. The good news is that the underlying causes are probably fixable economically and culturally and we could have that conversation.

But if you spend your time hiding your head in the sand and refusing to communicate with honest criticism, you'll do nothing but exacerbate the problems, and the negative perceptions your fighting against on this thread.
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
If you want to talk about a set of religious laws and the legal nuances of smoking hookah and drinking soda. . . because you'd rather not deal
with the obvious problems. . . Get thee to the Islam DIR.

But you made a thread in a public space called "Why do you dislike Islam?"

Here, we're going to focus on the substantive issue of the negative consequences of a religious-based legal system where, for whatever reason, the majority of Muslims who want it also have immoral ideas that don't fit well in the global, 21st century community.

Now you could admit that maybe the majority of Muslims simply don't understand Sharia law, the proper role of government, and the concept of secular protections for freedom of religion. I'd accept that, at least.

If you did that, then your response could be to suggest that there could be cultural ways of fixing these perceptions. Maybe the Muslim world needs better secular education, or maybe there are cultural issues of poverty/income inequality, or instability, at play in many of the countries polled.

The ultimate goal is not to condemn Islam here. The goal is to understand that current worship of that religion is producing some troubling perceptions with moral implications. The good news is that the underlying causes are probably fixable economically and culturally and we could have that conversation.

But if you spend your time hiding your head in the sand and refusing to communicate with honest criticism, you'll do nothing but exacerbate the problems, and the negative perceptions your fighting against on this thread.

Majority of Muslims don't live under sharia law....Then again majority of non-muslims such as yourself, don't even understand sharia law aside from what you see on the news or from conservative websites.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Here lies the crux of your view is you don't care....
Correct I don't care. It's their religion. Why would I be interested in how they go about interpreting it? I just look at the final results of these interpretations. And I see that conservative interpretations that violate the freedoms and rights of people are prevalent in the Muslim majority countries. That is the only thing I care about.

I offered you facts and alternative views yet you reject it because you are comfortable with your bias.
You did not offer any facts. You just provided a more liberal interpretation of Islam, which, while fine, is increasingly getting marginalized in Islamic countries. That is the problem and you seem hell bent on avoiding this issue.

You don't get to dictate what such and such country ought to do.
Every person has the moral duty to speak up against human rights violations happening in their country or in the world. One should not speak up against what Myanmar is doing to the Rohingyas or what ISIS is doing in Syria or what North Korea is doing? Here is the UN charter of human rights

Universal Declaration of Human Rights

Any country, group or religious/secular organizations whose actions are not in keeping with this charter ought to be censured in the strongest terms.


Freedom of expression? Yeah and look what happened Charlottesville when a white nationalists thought it was okay to express his rage by running people over, killing one.
And the guy has been arrested and charged with murder. Your point is what exactly? It's completely ridiculous to compare the freedom of expression enjoyed here compared to any country in Middle East where dissenters are imprisoned and terrorized with impunity left and right
https://www.forbes.com/sites/dominicdudley/2017/04/26/press-freedom-index/#4963c8e31e42


I'm liberal as they come, but its people like you that are the problem because you want to tell the world it is wrong if their views don't align with yours. Who are you to tell governments to change their laws because you don't like them? You're a nobody in the grand scheme of things.
I am a human being with a working brain and a conscience. And I know it's important for every citizen to vote for governments that actively take steps against foreign nations that routinely violate freedoms and rights in addition to protecting and expanding the rights of people domestically. Rise of tyrannical, totalitarian and fundamentalist ideologies threaten everyone and no country or organization should be allowed to indulge in them anywhere.
 
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