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Why do US Christian fundamentalists want a theocracy?

Discussion in 'North American Politics' started by Tambourine, Jul 11, 2020.

  1. Tambourine

    Tambourine Well-Known Member

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    Why is it that American Christian fundamentalists are always demanding that people live under a Christian theocracy? This seems to be an idea that's largely confined to the US, as despite being literally ruled by churches and Christian monarchs for over thousand years, the idea of a Christian theocracy doesn't seem to have much traction among modern Europeans.

    Why is this idea of a Christian state - rather than a secular state with a Christian majority - so alluring, specifically to Americans?
     
  2. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    If you check the history of the First Amendment to the US Constitution you'll find that the 'no establishment of religion' clause was put there by Christian believers, each of whom feared one of their rival Christian groups would declare THEIR version of religion to be THE religion as a matter of law.

    And no religion dreams of A theocracy. They dream of THEIR theocracy.

    Terrifying thought.

    (However, there's still one genuine theocracy in Europe. It's also an autarchy. Perhaps fortunately, their rules forbid them to breed.]
     
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  3. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    Because they historically moved to the colonies to be free to do as they want to do. Their individual religious freedom is to them equal being able to tell everybody else what to do.
    My guess as such.
     
  4. Nimos

    Nimos Well-Known Member

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    Must be a sign from God....

    America -> Abraham, same number of letters and both starting with an A, coincident... I think not!!!

    Theo..cracy -> Theo..dore Roswell... almost too good to be true!!

    On a more serious note... I think it's because people in most European countries don't want the church or religion to have any political say, its a personal matter. Obviously these two things collide occasionally or constantly, because certain religious rules can interfere with what is considered societal values such as freedom of speech, certain companies do not want to employ girls which have their hair covered etc. Which I don't think is really about religion as much as its about the "face" of the company and how they want to meet their customers in the culture in which the operate, not really any different, than certain companies in Islamic countries probably wouldn't like to have some uncovered girl sitting there greeting customers, because that is what is expected in their culture.

    But also Americans in general is a lot more religious than we are here in Europe, most people even though that call themselves Christians knows very little about it and would be surprised if the majority of them went to church more than 2-4 times year, besides that it is not something you really talk a lot about in general, at least not in Denmark.

    Neither does our politicians use the phrase "God bless Denmark" etc. Our queen use it maybe once a year, but in general God does not play any role in our political system.

    The closest as far as I know is a party call Kristendemokraterne, (Which is basically the Christian party, at least by name) but they didn't make it. But even they believe in religious freedom, probably more so than the other parties, as they believe that Islam should be allowed more rights than currently. So for Muslims in Denmark that would probably be a good party to vote for, if they were very interested in getting more rights for their religious beliefs. But in general this party is nothing compared to what you are talking about when it comes to a theocracy.

    So my guess is that most European countries have seen and is well aware of how some of these religious countries around the world is doing, and it is not very appealing, when you value freedom of speech, democracy etc.

    Besides that, Christianity just as all other religions is not a way to run a country, it need to be run by rational thinking rather than faith and wishful thinking. :)




     
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  5. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    Thats been my guess. Europe has seen first hand, for centuries, what blending church and state can do, and how more often than not it does tend to be a failure and severe violator of human rights. Tons of Americans, on the other hand, where history doesn't yet know the depths of a theocratic hell, see their rights as given and protected by god.
     
  6. bobhikes

    bobhikes Nowoligist
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    Power and wealth, like most humans governing agencies throughout history.
     
  7. Nimos

    Nimos Well-Known Member

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    To me, the moment you allow religious rules to guide how we are suppose to live, it's like going down a bad/dark path.

    For instant in Denmark almost no childcare institutes serves pork anymore, which is largely if not solely because of muslims. To me that is absolutely ridiculous, I don't mind them not serving pork, if it were due to some sensible reason, but it is almost purely, if not completely driven by religion. And to me it's perfectly fine if muslims do not want to eat it, then serve a second dish, but that is up to them. But in Denmark eating pork is very traditional, we have a lot of dishes which is based on pork, because of the cold climate we live in, so it goes way back.

    Stuff like that annoys me, because suddenly you have religious ideas influencing what you can do and what you can't do, and as an atheist that think all of it is utter nonsense, something like that just doesn't fly with me, even if its something as minor as this.

    I don't know if religious people really understand how atheists feel about stuff like this. But none of these religions have been able to provide evidence for whether or not any of this is true or not. And despite that, they haven't provided even a remotely good reason for why me or any other atheists should care about their rules... nada, nothing!!!

    So even after 2000 years we have no reason for why any of this should be considered true, except that some people feel like it ought to be.... well, Im sorry but I really couldn't care less about that. Yet atheists have to comply to certain rules to not offend these people. That is bull****, believe what you want, live how you want, but don't force unjustified beliefs and rules unto others, if you can't provide any good reasons for why it should be the case.

    And trust me, even if the US ended up with a theocrazy, it would take about a month before the Christians would get in a fight about, which interpretation of the bible is correct. And whether or not creationism should be taught in school or not. The US would fall so far behind in education as they would constantly have to try to fit whatever new discovery was made around the world into the creationist nonsense. Muslims and jews would feel that they weren't being heard, so they would demand equal rights as well, while the atheists would shake their heads and keep asking for evidence, until they were finally silenced or had moved to another country. :D
     
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  8. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    They can't do that amongst themselves. We need look no further than how Christians are their own worst enemies just as Muslims are their own. And despite that they want to dictate how we all live? No. Thats bull. It's not compatible with modern ideals and values that have helped create the social, political, and economic stability that has brought abundance and peace to much of the world. Those places that don't value those things, such as a basic respect for differences such as gender or religion, they tend to not be doing as well as thise that do. And we can see in America where Trump's brand of Christian Xenophobia has done very deep damage that will be very slow to heal (I'll be surprised if foriegn students studying here doesnt sharply plummet given the reality that the next xenophobic president can make there stay here very difficult in what theyre finding is the real ****hole country).
     
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  9. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    who is demanding it? I don't see that in any of that type of directive in Christian churches.
     
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  10. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    And that has been the trend in recent decades.
     
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  11. Nimos

    Nimos Well-Known Member

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    Luckily there are still some very bright people left in the US, but I think he puts it very well, and were I a citizen of the US, I would be scared of some of the statistics and statements he is presenting here, that some of the people in the US have said or believe.


    But I agree, look at some of the arabic countries, which are highly religious. One of the main reasons they are lacking behind is because of religion. Imagine taking half of the US working force (All the women) and tell them to stop working, assuming that were done, it would natural follow that it wouldn't make sense to educate them either, which would leave half the population uneducated, or with an absolute minimum of education. Doing something like that, would ruin the US or any modern society for that matter, and are there any good and sensible reason for doing something like that? Nope... just religion.
     
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  12. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    Do US fundies actually say they want a theocracy?

    I'm not sure I've ever come across that. The most I have seen is them wanting some laws to reflect their particular religion's views on certain aspects of morality, e.g. on abortion and homosexuality.
     
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  13. epronovost

    epronovost Well-Known Member

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    Dominionism isn't exactly popular in the US though it does have a surprising amount of political pull considering how unpopular it is. The biggest current advocate for dominionism are Gary North, Sye Ten Bruggencate and David Barton, but they can count on the soft support of a lot of charismatic Churches, millennialist and pentacostal Churches. Pat Robertson is perhapse the most well known of those supporting some form of soft dominionism. It's a very fringe view, but they were at the epicenter of those anti gay marriage bills, pushing creationism and "intelligent design" and installing monuments to the 10 commandments in courthouses. They are often derisively called the "American Taliban".
     
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  14. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    I think it is just modern day's attempt to change history or twist what they are saying. I don't know of anyone who has the viewpoint that Christian Theocracy is the Churches effort. It is only done when Jesus comes back again.

    It is more like "freedom of religion" is what they are looking for.
     
  15. Father Heathen

    Father Heathen Veteran Member

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    They definitely have a long history of trying to curtail the rights and freedoms of others.
     
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  16. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    I don't think so. No more than any other law that is enacted. Every law curtails something.
     
  17. epronovost

    epronovost Well-Known Member

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    In a sense you a pretty much correct, but there are crazy people in pretty much all large groups. Dominionists are pretty much the craziest, most extremist Christians there is.
     
  18. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    The problem, as I see it, is that people tend to relegate "crazies" to Christianity when any group of people can have it. Just look at what is happening in cities today, children being murdered, businesses burned, personal property destroyed, all by "crazies" with no religion involved in it
     
  19. Secret Chief

    Secret Chief Meghalayan Ape

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    Perhaps they just want their Man in the Oval office.
     
  20. epronovost

    epronovost Well-Known Member

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    Indeed, associating "crazies" to Christianity is a fallacy of composition, but so is denying that there are crazies amongst the Christians.

    Note that most criminals, like most people, are religious. That's simply factual.
     
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