Why do trinitarian ideologists say that Jesus Christ is YHWH?

[101G]

Where, in the book of Genesis, do you see Jesus mentioned? Which pre-existent creation is capable of dying?

Correct, his dying was to come. Revelation 13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

Romans 5:14 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

101G.

 

[Soapy]

Correct, his dying was to come. Revelation 13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

Romans 5:14 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

101G.

Yes, ‘Slain from the foundation of the world’ is the prophesy of his destiny. God’s word (??!) is absolute so what he says must be.

Here is one for the Trinitarians to ponder:

• The Word of God was that he would be slain - and so it was

So God’s Word (that the messiah would be slain) put on flesh… “The Word of God put on flesh”… “Slain from the beginning of time” put on flesh.., that is, it came to pass.

 

[101G]

Yes, ‘Slain from the foundation of the world’ is the prophesy of his destiny. God’s word (??!) is absolute so what he says must be.

Here is one for the Trinitarians to ponder:

• The Word of God was that he would be slain - and so it was

So God’s Word (that the messiah would be slain) put on flesh… “The Word of God put on flesh”… “Slain from the beginning of time” put on flesh.., that is, it came to pass.

Correct, now the question is, who put on or took part in humanity to die for our sins? scripture, Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me."

just find out who's God .... "OWN" .... "ARM" ... is. see Isaiah chapter 53.

101G.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Where, in the book of Genesis, do you see Jesus mentioned? Which pre-existent creation is capable of dying?

Ans: a pre-existent heavenly creation that is capable of dying is: Sinner Satan
Everlasting life was never offered to sinner angels.
Jesus will destroy Satan - Hebrews 2:14 B
ALL who are wicked will be ' destroyed forever ' - Psalm 92:7; Psalm 104:35
Death is the asking price tag for sin according to Romans 6:23; 16 B; and Satan is a sinner - John 8:44
Jesus' ransom does Not include Satan nor any fallen angels - Matthew 20:28
Romans 16:20 Satan is crushed referring back to Genesis 3:15 ( <-pre-existent heavenly Jesus is the promised-to-come 'seed' )
The woman's 'seed' is Jesus ( Gal. 3:16 ) Satan bruises Jesus in heel meaning Not a death wound.
The 'seed' Messiah Jesus, he bruises Satan's head (a death wound) crushing Satan out of existence.
Sinner Satan is wicked, and Malachi 4:3 informs us under Jesus' feet the wicked will be like ashes (dust) gone forever.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Yes, ‘Slain from the foundation of the world’ is the prophesy of his destiny. God’s word (??!) is absolute so what he says must be.
Here is one for the Trinitarians to ponder:

• The Word of God was that he would be slain - and so it was

So God’s Word (that the messiah would be slain) put on flesh… “The Word of God put on flesh”… “Slain from the beginning of time” put on flesh.., that is, it came to pass.

Logical to me because God sent pre-human heavenly Jesus from Heaven to Earth for us. ( in other words Jesus did Not send himself )
A heavenly body is a spirit body, thus pre-human Jesus would need a physical body in order to put on flesh / a fleshly body as Adam had.
Slain from the 'foundation of the world' is Not speaking about the 'foundation of Earth' but the foundation of man's unrighteous world.
That world's foundation started with fallen Adam. The foundation of the righteous world began with righteous Abel - Matthew 23:35

 

[URAVIP2ME]

My only problem is the first part where you say that you bridge Jesus was ‘from the beginning’ because you believe that a verse (Rev 3:14) appears to claim that Jesus is the beginning of God’s creation. I do not think that is what the verse is saying.
The verse is saying that Jesus is the first over the creation of God - the Firstborn over creation (Col 1:18): ‘I was dead but am now alive’, ‘These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again’..........................

Greek/English Interlinear at Col 1:18 says: ' and he is the head of the body of the ecclesia (congregation) who is the beginning, firstborn out of the dead (ones), in order that might become in all (things) he holding the first place. '
Col. 1:15 'first born' of all creation.....ALL things through him.... Col. 1:16 B
(John 3:13) Jesus as 'first fruits' from the dead - 1st Cor. 15:23 - so, yes, Jesus was dead and resurrected to life again.
- Acts 2:24, 27, 32; 3:15; 5:30; 13:36; Colossians 2:12
Also, King David was never higher than the kings of the Earth, so Psalm 89:27 ' firstborn ' is connecting to Jesus. (Jesus is the 'seed' at verses 29, 36)
Jesus is also the one at Luke 1:32-33
The offspring of David - Rev. 22:16; Jeremiah 23:5; Isaiah 11:1

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Correct, his dying was to come. Revelation 13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
Romans 5:14 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come." 101G.

Yes, of him who was to come -> 1st Cor. 15:47; 1st Cor.15:45; 1st Cor. 15:22.
In Bible speak, so to speak, the foundation of the world is Not the foundation of planet Earth as some think.
So, Jesus was slain from the foundation of Adam's 'transgressing'. The foundation of this unrighteous world of unrighteous mankind.(Rom 5:14)
The foundation or the founding of the righteous world starts with righteous Abel - Matt. 23:35

 

[pearl]

As it stands, I can find not even one verse where Jesus Christ is called ‘YHWH’ by name.

And you will not. The only scripture that may come close is the prologue of John, where Jesus is referred to as God. (and the word was God)

 

[101G]

Yes, of him who was to come -> 1st Cor. 15:47; 1st Cor.15:45; 1st Cor. 15:22.

"OF' him is him, according to Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words "In addition to the rendering of a number of prepositions, "of" translates the genitive case of nouns, with various shades of meaning. Of these the subjective and objective are mentioned here, which need careful distinction.

OF him is him....

In Bible speak, so to speak, the foundation of the world is Not the foundation of planet Earth as some think.

in this case we think and believe so. anytime one needs conformation of a scripture, one looks for another or other scriptures in likeness to get a better understanding of the verse at hand. as here, 1 Peter 1:19 "But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:" 1 Peter 1:20 "Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,"
the key word here is "foreordained". God don;t make up stuff as he goes, no, it has already been planned. so the question now is ... When? Acts 2:23 "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:" again, the Keyword is "foreknowledge", and another word for foreknowledge is wisdom. question, "was WISDOM" here before the planet? yes. case solved.

now, the shortcut. one cannot have a society, World, or civilization, without a planet for it to be on, NATURALLY Speaking.

So, Jesus was slain from the foundation of Adam's 'transgressing'.

yes, before Adam was even formed.... meaning "foreknowledge" meaning to come to pass. hence why we have the thing called

The foundation of this unrighteous world of unrighteous mankind.(Rom 5:14)
The foundation or the founding of the righteous world starts with righteous Abel - Matt. 23:35

ERROR, Adam and Eve had Righteous children in the Garden before the Fall. remember there are two lines from Adam.

101G.

 

[Soapy]

And you will not. The only scripture that may come close is the prologue of John, where Jesus is referred to as God. (and the word was God)

Thanks… and ‘word of God’ in that verse is not even vaguely referring to Jesus Christ.

When I asked trinitarians WHAT ‘word of God’ means, all they seem to be able to respond is, ‘Jesus Christ’.

Now, we know that such an answer is not even close to what is an answer in line with the question… they are answering to “WHO do they claim is ‘word of God’?”

And they will not move their position even after my explanation of the reality of the question. Why?? Easy answer!!!

Of course, the reality is that ‘word of God’ means ‘The utterance made by God’. Such an utterance is easily shown from the first few verses of the first chapter of the first book in the scriptures:

• ‘In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth…’ and ‘LET THERE BE LIGHT’…

What kind of act was performed by such words?
How does one describe such actions as a result of such words?

Are such words not:

• Monumental
• Glorious
• Wondrous
• Almighty
• Majestic
• Having complete authority and power
• Greatest
• Most high
• …

Are these and more not descriptions of SUPERLATIVES?

Yes! So the answer to the question is that ‘word of God’ means ‘the highest, most glorious, greatest, most authoritative, most powerful ever utterance (word)’…

And guess what the term, ‘God’ means….??

Answer, every bit of what is bulleted above. So you can now easily see that:

• ‘The word of God is God’

means:

• ‘the highest, most glorious, greatest, most authoritative, most powerful ever utterance (word) of the highest, most glorious, greatest, most authoritative, most powerful DEITY is the highest, most glorious, greatest, most authoritative, most powerful ever uttered (word)!’

In the beginning God spoke a most powerful word that created all things - and there was nothing created that was not created by that word!

God’s word was also that a Messiah would come into the world… and in the fullness of time God’s word came to fruition… the almighty word of God put on flesh…! God put flesh on the bones of his promise.

 

[pearl]

Thanks… and ‘word of God’ in that verse is not even vaguely referring to Jesus Christ.

It does not say the 'word of God' but 'the word was God. In any event it cannot be interpreted so easily as to state that Jesus was/is God.

In the beginning: also the first words of the Old Testament (Gn 1:1). Was: this verb is used three times with different meanings in this verse: existence, relationship, and predication. The Word (Greek logos): this term combines God’s dynamic, creative word (Genesis), personified preexistent Wisdom as the instrument of God’s creative activity (Proverbs), and the ultimate intelligibility of reality (Hellenistic philosophy). With God: the Greek preposition here connotes communication with another. Was God: lack of a definite article with “God” in Greek signifies predication rather than identification.
What came to be: while the oldest manuscripts have no punctuation here, the corrector of Bodmer Papyrus P75, some manuscripts, and the Ante-Nicene Fathers take this phrase with what follows, as staircase parallelism. Connection with Jn 1:3 reflects fourth-century anti-Arianism.

 

[Soapy]

It does not say the 'word of God' but 'the word was God. In any event it cannot be interpreted so easily as to state that Jesus was/is God.

In the beginning: also the first words of the Old Testament (Gn 1:1). Was: this verb is used three times with different meanings in this verse: existence, relationship, and predication. The Word (Greek logos): this term combines God’s dynamic, creative word (Genesis), personified preexistent Wisdom as the instrument of God’s creative activity (Proverbs), and the ultimate intelligibility of reality (Hellenistic philosophy). With God: the Greek preposition here connotes communication with another. Was God: lack of a definite article with “God” in Greek signifies predication rather than identification.
What came to be: while the oldest manuscripts have no punctuation here, the corrector of Bodmer Papyrus P75, some manuscripts, and the Ante-Nicene Fathers take this phrase with what follows, as staircase parallelism. Connection with Jn 1:3 reflects fourth-century anti-Arianism.

Yes, I got a little ahead of myself since I’ve been disputing with Trinitarians about this verse for more years than should be for their understanding.

Yes, ‘In the beginning was the word’. I prefaced the point by noting that it was ‘GOD’s word as shown in Genesis.

I then showed that the term,‘God’, means all things superlative, such as mightiest, most glorious, all powerful, etc.

It then becomes clear that ‘the utterance of the all powerful deity was itself all powerful’ -which gives rise to the part of the verse that states:
‘The word was God’.

There then is no contradiction in John 1:1 concerning who created: ‘The almighty utterance (‘Let there be light’) of the almighty deity was what created all things. And nothing was created except by that glorious utterance’.

Everything uttered by the mighty, ruling deity was monumental and prophetic. He stated that a saviour, a messiah, was to come to rid mankind of the sin of Adam.., and do it was. This is set out as ‘In the fullness of time God sent his son born of a woman into the world’.

So saying, we have ‘the word [of God] was made flesh…. A promise fulfilled…!

Is it just an English saying, or is it universal, that a promise uttered by someone, when fulfilled, when brought to fruition, when enacted, is said to ‘Put on flesh’, ‘To put flesh on the bones of the promise’, ‘To come in the flesh’?

For that is exactly what occurred: God’s promise came to be. The Jews had sought the promise for over 400 years between the old and new testaments… and suddenly it was upon them: A star was seen in the east which signified the coming of a new king!!

But this was disappointedly to them not an earthly king - this king was greater than any other - a spiritual king - but they did not accept him since their minds were of earthly matters.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

It does not say the 'word of God' but 'the word was God. In any event it cannot be interpreted so easily as to state that Jesus was/is God.

In the beginning: also the first words of the Old Testament (Gn 1:1). Was: this verb is used three times with different meanings in this verse: existence, relationship, and predication. The Word (Greek logos): this term combines God’s dynamic, creative word (Genesis), personified preexistent Wisdom as the instrument of God’s creative activity (Proverbs), and the ultimate intelligibility of reality (Hellenistic philosophy). With God: the Greek preposition here connotes communication with another. Was God: lack of a definite article with “God” in Greek signifies predication rather than identification.
What came to be: while the oldest manuscripts have no punctuation here, the corrector of Bodmer Papyrus P75, some manuscripts, and the Ante-Nicene Fathers take this phrase with what follows, as staircase parallelism. Connection with Jn 1:3 reflects fourth-century anti-Arianism.

Originally, as we know, the Bible was not written in English.
The same Greek grammar rule applies at both Acts 28:6 B as in John 1.
KJV chose to insert the letter 'a' at Acts 28:6 B and chose to omit the letter 'a' at John 1 even though the same Greek grammar rule applies in both verses.

God had No beginning - Psalm 90:2 - God is from everlasting.... so, No starting point for God places God ' before' the beginning.
Whereas pre-mortal heavenly Jesus was 'in' the beginning, but Not ' before ' the beginning as his God was.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

.......................................So saying, we have ‘the word [of God] was made flesh…. A promise fulfilled…!
Is it just an English saying, or is it universal, that a promise uttered by someone, when fulfilled, when brought to fruition, when enacted, is said to ‘Put on flesh’, ‘To put flesh on the bones of the promise’, ‘To come in the flesh’?
For that is exactly what occurred: God’s promise came to be. The Jews had sought the promise for over 400 years between the old and new testaments… and suddenly it was upon them: A star was seen in the east which signified the coming of a new king!!
But this was disappointedly to them not an earthly king - this king was greater than any other - a spiritual king - but they did not accept him since their minds were of earthly matters.

Jesus as the 'Word of God' as in meaning: God's Spokesman.
Yes, disappointed people that Jesus (Messiah) would Not be an earthly king for them freeing them from Roman oppression - John 6:15; John 18:36
Resurrected Jesus would be a heavenly king with a heavenly Jerusalem (Gal. 4:26) as the heavenly seat of God's heavenly kingdom government.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

And you will not. The only scripture that may come close is the prologue of John, where Jesus is referred to as God. (and the word was God)

'as God' when translated from the Greek into King James English.
King James inserts the letter 'a' before god at Acts 28:6 B even though the same Greek grammar rule applies at both John 1 and Acts 28.

 

[pearl]

King James inserts the letter

I do not give any real creditability to the King James version.

 

[Soapy]

Jesus as the 'Word of God' as in meaning: God's Spokesman.
Yes, disappointed people that Jesus (Messiah) would Not be an earthly king for them freeing them from Roman oppression - John 6:15; John 18:36
Resurrected Jesus would be a heavenly king with a heavenly Jerusalem (Gal. 4:26) as the heavenly seat of God's heavenly kingdom government.

Well, strictly, Jesus’ rulership is over the created world. It is not a ‘Heavenly Kingdom’ but rather, the kingdom of earth ‘Ruled FROM Heaven’.

Also, the only place Jesus is called ‘Word of God’ is in the book of Revelation - and this because Jesus is carrying out what God told him to do (He is doing “God’s Word”!)

Indeed, if Trinitarians are to be believed that Jesus is ‘the word of God’ in John 1:1 (which actually does not call anyone ‘the Word OF GOD’ - it only says ‘the word’ ) how many Jesus’ are there?:

• “Every word of God is flawless…” (Proverbs 30:5)

 

[Brickjectivity]

And you will not. The only scripture that may come close is the prologue of John, where Jesus is referred to as God. (and the word was God)

What about Matthew 1:21? Its as close as they'd be allowed to writing it, since nobody is allowed to actually write out the full name.

[Mat 1:21 NIV] 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."​

​

The writer explains why he is named 'Joshua'. Then you need an older reference that explains the meaning of 'Joshua', but look there is one provided in Numbers.

[Num 13:16 NIV] 16 These are the names of the men Moses sent to explore the land. (Moses gave Hoshea son of Nun the name Joshua.)​

​

Here in Numbers is the background on the name 'Joshua'. You can look up the roots and the meanings. Joshua's name is changed from Oshea (salvation) to Yahoshea (Yah is salvation). Numbers does not go further but simply drops this as if it were a side note, but there are no side notes. Jesus is given this name because he will save his people from their sins, says Matthew. Seeing as nobody is permitted to write the full name, how much closer can one get to calling Jesus the name? How could it have been written more directly and still been allowed?

 

[pearl]

[Mat 1:21 NIV] 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."

I think when reading Scripture we must keep in mind the theological and christological purpose of the sacred writers.
As for Mt 1:21, from the NABR
* [1:21] Jesus: in first-century Judaism the Hebrew name Joshua (Greek Iēsous) meaning “Yahweh helps” was interpreted as “Yahweh saves.”

Drawing upon both biblical tradition and Jewish stories, Matthew portrays Jesus as reliving the Exodus experience of Israel and the persecutions of Moses. His rejection by his own people and his passion are foreshadowed by the troubled reaction of “all Jerusalem” to the question of the magi who are seeking the “newborn king of the Jews” (Mt 2:2–3), and by Herod’s attempt to have him killed. The magi who do him homage prefigure the Gentiles who will accept the preaching of the gospel. The infancy narrative proclaims who Jesus is, the savior of his people from their sins (Mt 1:21), Emmanuel in whom “God is with us” (Mt 1:23), and the Son of God (Mt 2:15).

Joshua: in Hebrew, “Jehoshua,” which was later modified to “Jeshua,” the Hebrew name for “Jesus.” Hoshea and Joshua are variants of one original name meaning “the LORD saves.”

 

[Brickjectivity]

I think when reading Scripture we must keep in mind the theological and christological purpose of the sacred writers.
As for Mt 1:21, from the NABR
* [1:21] Jesus: in first-century Judaism the Hebrew name Joshua (Greek Iēsous) meaning “Yahweh helps” was interpreted as “Yahweh saves.”

Drawing upon both biblical tradition and Jewish stories, Matthew portrays Jesus as reliving the Exodus experience of Israel and the persecutions of Moses. His rejection by his own people and his passion are foreshadowed by the troubled reaction of “all Jerusalem” to the question of the magi who are seeking the “newborn king of the Jews” (Mt 2:2–3), and by Herod’s attempt to have him killed. The magi who do him homage prefigure the Gentiles who will accept the preaching of the gospel. The infancy narrative proclaims who Jesus is, the savior of his people from their sins (Mt 1:21), Emmanuel in whom “God is with us” (Mt 1:23), and the Son of God (Mt 2:15).

Joshua: in Hebrew, “Jehoshua,” which was later modified to “Jeshua,” the Hebrew name for “Jesus.” Hoshea and Joshua are variants of one original name meaning “the LORD saves.”

I don't disagree, yet I don't see how this rebuts, either. Thanks though.