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Why do some people seem to be unable

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
The reason, like any terrorist was to cause devastation, damage, injury and death. Politically they were (still are in a small way) a minority group with big ideas of stomping roughshod over democracy to impose their will.

So you would happily live in constant pain and disability knowing the perpetrators were gloating at what they had done? Does that make you a better person?
NO, I would not enjoy the pain, that is not what I say, what I say is that pain is pain and I would accept that it is pain, thereby distance the "ego/self" from it. and only see it for what it is, Pain.
Second of all, I can not stop them from thinking what they think. all I can do is to not hate, because no matter how much I would hate them, the damage is already done. But I can not speak for other people, they do as they feel is the right thing for them, hate or not hate.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
Why does it seem to be so that some people have difficulty forgive others for their mistakes or wrongdoing?
Sometimes it even looks like people get upset if someone forgives others. Why is this?

Because perhaps they are unable to place themselves in the position of another - not understanding the differences in personality, abilities, etc., and how they react to what they experience? It is hard enough to get into another's head but more so when we bring along our own attitudes towards them so often. Many don't seem to understand that how we judge others is as much about damaging ourselves as doing so to others - as it often results in doing - by placing them into some 'category', and often being 'not human' - which is as much xenophobia as it is for the usual suspects.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
NO, I would not enjoy the pain, that is not what I say, what I say is that pain is pain and I would accept that it is pain, thereby distance the "ego/self" from it. and only see it for what it is, Pain.
Second of all, I can not stop them from thinking what they think. all I can do is to not hate, because no matter how much I would hate them, the damage is already done. But I can not speak for other people, they do as they feel is the right thing for them, hate or not hate.

Pain is a constant reminder, yes its pain, not a headache or score finger but a raging agony that only reduces with the use of strong medication.

People can think what they want, they dont (or shouldn't) need to kill and maim for their though and expect forgiveness for it.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Why does it seem to be so that some people have difficulty forgive others for their mistakes or wrongdoing?
Sometimes it even looks like people get upset if someone forgives others. Why is this?

I've often wondered the same thing, at least in terms of not forgiving a single mistake.

Some people can be unforgiving of accidents or mistakes, whereas others might reserve their wrath only for those whose acts are intentional, egregious, malicious, and personal (such as an abusive parent, sibling, etc.).

Any kind of abuse, whether it's a parent abusing children, or anyone abusing their power - that's the kind of stuff that goes into the "unforgivable" category.
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
I would not say it is required, But when we forgive someone for something they said or did , we see that when we hold anger or irritation toward someone we suffer from it, but as soon we are able to forgive, the anger goes away and we can feel happy and free again.
This assumes that forgiveness is not given out of anger. Rather than the offending party not being worthy of forgiveness, or deserving it.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
This assumes that forgiveness is not given out of anger. Rather than the offending party not being worthy of forgiveness, or deserving it.
Why would they not be worthy of forgivess?
Forgivness comes from arising compassion for those who do wrong, and that we see they do it out of ignorance, stupidity or evilness, so we wish them to not be feeling this anger or ignorance toward other beings. And for the one who does forgive it is a sign of being able to let go of something that happened in the past.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Why would they not be worthy of forgivess?
Forgivness comes from arising compassion for those who do wrong, and that we see they do it out of ignorance, stupidity or evilness, so we wish them to not be feeling this anger or ignorance toward other beings. And for the one who does forgive it is a sign of being able to let go of something that happened in the past.

Repeated deliberate acts of aggression, sexual, physical or mental abuse are worthy of nothing more contempt and censure
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
Repeated deliberate acts of aggression, sexual, physical or mental abuse are worthy of nothing more contempt and censure
Maybe you did not notice it, but I did not yet say anything about them not being prosecuted for their misbehaving, because they must, of course, follow the law of the country they are in, but on a personal level, it is possible to forgive.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
I've often wondered the same thing, at least in terms of not forgiving a single mistake.

But the attitudes to those who commit additional mistakes perhaps should be similar to those who commit a single mistake (forgivable) - being caught in a cycle of offending where any intervention is perhaps just inadequate. Why do we do this - one mistake only allowed - seems a bit arbitrary to me? Expecting others to somehow be cured of their mistakes when we might not know their circumstances or abilities?
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Maybe you did not notice it, but I did not yet say anything about them not being prosecuted for their misbehaving, because they must, of course, follow the law of the country they are in, but on a personal level, it is possible to forgive.

Prosecution has nothing to do with forgiveness. And often those who break the law are not prosecuted.

On your level, maybe. Others do not see a need to forgive people who are simply bad.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
Prosecution has nothing to do with forgiveness. And often those who break the law are not prosecuted.

On your level, maybe. Others do not see a need to forgive people who are simply bad.
I used to hold anger toward those who hurt me in the past, but it feels so much freer when nothing is taken personal anymore.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
To be afraid of "losing face" is very common i think. But in my own experience, I noticed that, when forgiving someone for something did toward me or toward someone i cared about, it feels better from within, because we do not hold any anger toward anyone or anything.
Absolutely!
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
But the attitudes to those who commit additional mistakes perhaps should be similar to those who commit a single mistake (forgivable) - being caught in a cycle of offending where any intervention is perhaps just inadequate. Why do we do this - one mistake only allowed - seems a bit arbitrary to me? Expecting others to somehow be cured of their mistakes when we might not know their circumstances or abilities?

I think it largely depends on the situation. For example, say you're at a bar, and someone accidentally spills beer on you. I think most people would be inclined towards forgiveness, provided that it was purely accidental. If someone did it on purpose, then that might be different, yet still, some might be more inclined to walk away rather than get physical.

I remember one guy who had beer spilled on him, and he just totally beat the crap out of the guy to within an inch of his life.

His inability to forgive seemed to be more the result of other things in his life - he was having marital problems, financial problems, job problems. That was his "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore" moment.

I don't think he really meant to explode like that, and he did express some regret afterwards. But it's also very hard to forgive. He said he would try to get help for his anger. That may cause some people to want to forgive, if the offending individual takes steps to not repeat such behavior. But if it doesn't seem like they're making a sincere effort to change, then forgiveness can be revoked.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
For instance? Can you give me one or two examples?
No problem at all. Here are some really obvious ones.

Rape - in what instance would you say that a woman (or man) who has been raped is unable to forgive their rapist simply because they are unable to "forgive themselves?" If the person does not, within their lives, commit as grievous a "sin" (what a stupid word) as rape, then how are they to even be expected to comprehend the "mistakes" made by their attacker? In what way would "forgiving themselves" (for WHAT, by the way?) help them to forgive their rapist? It doesn't seem to make any sense to me. Let's say they really wanted to forgive their rapist - because their principles, or those around them are instructing them that this is necessary (which it isn't, by the way) - can you seriously claim that, if they are unable to forgive the wrong against them, that what is holding them back is that they cannot forgive themselves? Whatever it is they "need" to forgive themselves for is completely unrelated to the rape. I dare you to try and claim otherwise. Especially given that you know nothing about any potential things they "need" to forgive themselves for.

Murder - In this case, those that are left are the ones grieving, and again here, I am sure there are plenty of parents, brothers, sisters, loved ones of any kind who simply adored the person murdered, and loved the vast majority of time spent with that person. If they are unable to forgive the murderer for forcefully removing this person from their lives, what could it possibly be within themselves that they first need to forgive to make that possible? And again, there is no actual requirement that anyone forgive someone who murdered their loved one. None whatsoever. So, IF the person wishes to forgive the murderer, but find themselves unable - you're saying that if they just forgive themselves for "something" that they can then forgive the murderer with greater ease? So, if they forgive themselves for all those parking tickets they have racked up... or they forgive themselves for all that ice cream they ate that put on a couple pounds, then they'll be able to forgive MURDER? This is what I am not getting. There can (and has most definitely) exist a HUGE disparity between the worst someone has committed in their lives versus the worst that is committed against them. If someone can't forgive someone else for being a huge douche, what is it, do you feel, that should compel them to do so?

It's not worthless. It's the truth. How can someone forgive another, if they are unable to forgive themselves? I am speaking of true, genuine forgiveness. I do not mean, "I'll give you a pass this time". That's not forgiveness. You can forgive someone, even if they are unrepentant. I'm talking true forgiveness, which is unconditional.
I think you're talking more about letting something go, and not obsessing about it. You're not talking about forgiveness necessarily. REMEMBERING a bad experience and holding onto the idea that you don't ever want to experience that crap again is NOT something bad. Bad would be letting fear, anxiety or anger over that thing rule over your life and take up vast amounts of your time - leaving you neglecting other things, responsibilities and people. However, holding onto the memory of the person or thing that has caused you such grief, and using that knowledge to treat future events/situations accordingly in order to avoid more of the same is just practicality at work. And so... one DOES NOT need to forgive. They can let it go, and not concentrate on it so fiercely, and that allows them to go on about healthy behaviors in life... but that is entirely separate from this idea of "forgiveness" - which again, does not need to happen.

Okay, so now, when I say you cannot truly forgive someone unless you are able to do that for yourself, is because if you can't forgive yourself for your own shortfalls, where do you think that forgiveness to forgive others is going to come from? If you cannot accept your own sins and hold them with forgiveness towards yourself, you truly cannot accept them in others either. You judge others, as you judge yourself. Likewise, you love others as you love yourself.
Once again - keeping mental note of people's shortfalls is a measure of practicality. You can "forgive" various instances of their poor behavior, but you had better bet you are going to remember that they do this thing (whatever it is), and you are going to work to avoid it. This is you, holding on to your animosity against the behavior. And remembering that a particular person is a frequent perpetrator is you holding that opinion of them in spite of forgiving them for past transgressions. In other words - I would argue you have NEVER fully forgiven them anyway. Avoidance of situations is you admitting that you know this person all too well to let them hit you with their bad behaviors again... it is you admitting that you hold something - however small - against them. You are predisposed to treat them in a certain way, different from others who are not perpetrators of the same. Again - this is just practicality. And denying this is just plain dumb. We all do it.

It's really not magical at all. It's kind of common sense, once you look beneath the covers a little bit and rummage around in there.
Statements like this are so goofy. "look beneath the covers a little bit and rummage around in there." Can you imagine if your psychologist gave you this as a prescription for mental health? Can you? Ridiculous.


I have no idea what this fictitious scenario is, but it's not about "humming appreciation for the wisdom to one another". It's about basic human empathy.
It's really not. It is all about making some pithy little statement with only the vague hope that it holds any truth.

If we hold ourselves in disdain, we will do the same to others.
There are plenty of cases in which this is not true. Try anyone who idolizes someone else (or even a whole group or type of people) while simultaneously holding themselves in low regard. This type of thing happens all the time. Seriously... constantly. Try high school for some examples. Kids envying the jocks or the "cool kids" and feeling bad about themselves. You can most certainly hold yourself in low regard and yet hold others up on a pedestal.

Someone who criticizes others for all their faults, do fifty times that much to themselves first. That's why they are doing it to others, to try to take some of that constant self-attacking they are doing beneath the covers, and distract themselves by seeing others flaws instead.
This may be anecdotally true, but myself as an example - I criticize people's beliefs and attitudes all the time, and yet I am not sitting around lamenting my own choices of belief or my own disposition/attitude. Not even close. This is the problem with hyperbolic statements - they make you sound like you have no idea what you are talking about to anyone who knows of cases that shatter your proposed "mold" to pieces.

Everything I am saying is coming from my own experiences.
Yeah, and your experiences are not "the world."

These are not theoretical ideas.
You're right - they're not. They are even less than that.

I'm simply trying to explain what I have realized the deeper beneath the covers we go. This is reality.
Correcting your last sentence here: This is false bravado.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
I think it largely depends on the situation. For example, say you're at a bar, and someone accidentally spills beer on you. I think most people would be inclined towards forgiveness, provided that it was purely accidental. If someone did it on purpose, then that might be different, yet still, some might be more inclined to walk away rather than get physical.

I remember one guy who had beer spilled on him, and he just totally beat the crap out of the guy to within an inch of his life.

His inability to forgive seemed to be more the result of other things in his life - he was having marital problems, financial problems, job problems. That was his "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore" moment.

I don't think he really meant to explode like that, and he did express some regret afterwards. But it's also very hard to forgive. He said he would try to get help for his anger. That may cause some people to want to forgive, if the offending individual takes steps to not repeat such behavior. But if it doesn't seem like they're making a sincere effort to change, then forgiveness can be revoked.

Of course it's easier to say forgive than do it. Like an incident when I was a kid - minding my own business with a mate in the park when set upon by a little tike and his little mob. He took his belt off to have a go at me, but I soon stopped that and we then fell to wrestling on the ground. He then resorted to biting, and eventually his mates all joined in and proceeded to use my head as a football. It was only my crying out that I couldn't see - my vision going rather blurry understandably - that they stopped this and left. Fortunately my vision problem was only temporary, but it might not have been.

Was I keen to forgive him and his gang of boneheads? Not likely, but he probably got the belt idea from his dad - being beaten by him. And all too often it comes down to that - a poor early childhood. I still don't understand why so many who kick the heads of others as they lie on the ground don't get harsher sentences since quite a lot of damage can be done - even death.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Doesn't work that way for me. Once could be a mistake and no forgiveness is required. More than once and they are not worth the effort of thinking about.
Very true "They are not worth the effort of thinking about". That is the highest level, as seen from a spiritual POV

Of other people i think the "displeasure" can go away for minor transgression of civility. Major transgressions are another matter and will be remembered for life
Very true again. To remember what happened is good, as it is a good reminder to avoid those people like the plague.
When someone don't remember what happened, he would have a serious memory problem
 

PureX

Veteran Member
It makes one feel superior to stand in judgment of others. And in control, too. Which, I think, is why judging and condemning others is such a common habit for so many of us. It gives us a sense of power and control in a world where we feel increasingly ignored and exploited.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
More than once and they are not worth the effort of thinking about.

And as i say, a minor and unrepeated one doesn't require forgiveness.

Repeated transgressions don't deserve forgiveness.

I therefore see no use for forgiveness
I agree, there is no use for forgiveness (meaning I forgive someone who hurt me). If the person says sorry and specifically asks me to forgive him, I will. But I also remind him, he should not do it again. Otherwise his sorry is just baloney

What you describe is the highest form of forgiveness what @Amanaki described ... not worth the effort of thinking about
When you master this, there is indeed no use for forgiveness.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
What do you call major?. My example is that my aunt and i less so were injured a terrorist bombing. My aunt had her left arm decapitated so how does she forgive the terrorists who planted the bomb?
What a horrible tragedy you and your aunt went through. Nobody in their right mind can say that they would forgive the terrorist, when it would happen to them. Only someone who went through it himself (exactly the same "arm decapitated etc.") and was able to forgive the terrorist, could say "he would forgive the terrorist". But I never heard someone say it, who went through it himself.

But thats just me, others may be willing to accept repeated transgressions and forgive the persistent offender
Willing to accept repeated transgressions and forgive the persistent offender only means the person is to weak to protect himself

The reason, like any terrorist was to cause devastation, damage, injury and death. Politically they were (still are in a small way) a minority group with big ideas of stomping roughshod over democracy to impose their will.

So you would happily live in constant pain and disability knowing the perpetrators were gloating at what they had done?
Nobody would. You could pretend of course. But to emotional cure from what you/aunt went through is beyond human

Does that make you a better person?
People who never experienced themselves the exact same tragedy, can not claim they would forgive.
 
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