Why do some Christians reject Baptism saves?

[metis]

In the olden days (those prior to my birth), when Dad was baptized the family became Christian as he was considered to be the head of the family. In Acts, there's a reference to a family being baptized.

The Catholic Church, largely in response to the plagues that killed millions in Europe, split baptism into two sacraments: baptism and confirmation, whereas the latter is done later.

 

[Kenny]

I reply...
You miss the scriptures that tell you "The Baptized receive the Holy Spirit"! Acts 2... "Be BAPTIZED for the forgiveness of sins and you will receive the GIFT of the Holy Spirit"!
You cannot receive the Holy Spirit until your sins are forgiven! "Be BAPTIZED for the forgiveness of sins"!

then I am not quite connecting the dots of thought here.

If Cornelius DID receive the Holy Spirit like unto the disciples... how did they receive the Holy Spirit if their sins weren't forgiven yet through baptism in water?

You said... "Cornelius had to be saved to be filled with the Holy Spirit". To say this you must reject Acts 10... Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
KenS WATER PLUS SPIRIT! Not Spirit alone!

Yes... I got your point here... just doesn't match Cornelius. IMV

 

[Dogknox20]

In the olden days (those prior to my birth), when Dad was baptized the family became Christian as he was considered to be the head of the family. In Acts, there's a reference to a family being baptized.

The Catholic Church, largely in response to the plagues that killed millions in Europe, split baptism into two sacraments: baptism and confirmation, whereas the latter is done later.

metis All Sacrament go back to Jesus! Sacraments are instituted by Jesus!
Acts 8.. Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, who went down and prayed for them, that they might receive the holy Spirit, for it had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Then they laid hands on them and they received the holy Spirit.

Acts 19 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul laid [his] hands on them, the holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

Confirmation—a special anointing with the Holy Spirit—has its roots in Old Testament prophecy.

 

[metis]

Confirmation—a special anointing with the Holy Spirit—has its roots in Old Testament prophecy.

Sorta. In the Tanakh, we see the words "God's spirit" being used periodically even though there's no indication that it is a reference to the "Holy Spirit", although I believe it's possible that it could be one and the same.

 

[Nova2216]

As did I. Maybe you should take a course? Or learn from @Dogknox20 ?

One thing for sure, your method for convincing isn't very convincing.

The power is in the word.

Lu 4:32 And they were astonished at his doctrine: for his word was with power.

 

[Kenny]

The power is in the word.

Lu 4:32 And they were astonished at his doctrine: for his word was with power.

ABSOLUTELY!!!

 

[tayla]

I am sure all use the scriptures to justify their reasoning so please post the scriptures!

Scriptures otherwise can we believe it!? Being told; baptism does not save without support from scriptures becomes a TRADITION.

There are passages from the Bible that non-Catholic Christians use to support their view.

 

[Nova2216]

There are passages from the Bible that non-Catholic Christians use to support their view.

I am not Catholic and I use scriptures to support my view.

Believe + Baptism = Saved (Mark 16:16)

Baptism Saves (1Peter 3:20,21) (Acts 2:38,47 ; 8:5,12,13,26-40 ; 16:30-34 ; 22:16)

Ac 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

(Acts 22:16) - Paul's conversion
1. Arise
2. Be Baptized
3. Wash Away Your Sins

Did Paul come to baptism thinking his sins had already been forgiven?

OR

Did Paul come to baptism thinking he needed to have his sins forgiven?

 

[Dogknox20]

There are passages from the Bible that non-Catholic Christians use to support their view.

tayla it's good to meet you... Yes you are right those who are in the "CON" group have scriptures! Basically their view is "Only faith saves" this idea of "Faith ALONE" is a man made TRADITION.. it is not biblical it first appeared 1600 years after Jesus it was introduced to the world by Martin Luther! They constantly quote John 3:16 to make their case... BUT...
tayla but they fail to see in John 3:16 Jesus is telling Nicodemus "Believe my words you must be reborn by Water & Spirit to be saved!" Believing in Jesus is to believe his teaching to Nicodemus! THEN...
tayla then right after Jesus finishes is teaching with Nicodemus he goes out baptizing with water!? Their scriptures in context hold no water (pun)

To accept "Baptism saves" they MUST jettison "Faith Alone" saves!

 

[GardenLady]

Do you know what baptism is? That is the real question you should start from. It is a person's willful submission to God to do his will. It is a public declaration of faith to all, both humans and angels that one has taken their stand for Jehovah God and his kingdom government in Jesus' Christ's hands, the son of the living God.

Your view of baptism is one that is fairly widely shared in the US, but it certainly not shared by all Christians in the US or in the world. The "believer baptism" is found in scripture, certainly -- early Christianity was established by conversion. The scriptures do not address the raising of children as Christian children of Christian parents, and scripture does not support the view that children raised in the faith literally from the cradle need to undergo the conversion and believer baptism that early converting adults did/do. As to full submersion, again, this is not a universal view. Don't misunderstand me -- I have nothing against full submersion. But it seems legalistic to insist upon it and without foundation to claim that it is an absolute requirement.

 

[Dogknox20]

Hmm...

Look Jesus said:

"Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man." - John 3:13.

Now I said that this means that no one has ascended into heaven but the one who descended, Jesus Christ. He obviously returned to heaven after he was raised from the dead. I did not interpret this did I? Did I merely not just quote what Jesus Christ himself said? So it is not I but Jesus saying this. I did not interpret it to mean anything other than what he said. Correct?

Let us go to a few of the other scriptures I quoted. For example:
"Moreover, brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who are sleeping in death..."-1 Thessalonians 4:13.
I have much more to say, and many more texts I could add. But to accept new understanding takes time. It is like going from a dark room to outside lit by the sun at noon with no clouds in the sky. The light can be t0o bright at first. It takes time for the eyes to adjust. And only a humble one will accept adjustment. And that is the heart that is agreeable to God.

(I had to remove some of your post to many words...)
Eyes to See Christians have Always baptized to be saved! They have always used water!
Baptism IMMERSES us into the Risen Body of Jesus; If IMMERSED IN Jesus then God would be your father!
Hermas
“‘I have heard, sir,’ said I [to the Shepherd], ‘from some teacher, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.’ He said to me, ‘You have heard rightly, for so it is’” (The Shepherd 4:3:1–2 [A.D. 80]).

Justin Martyr
“As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly . . . are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]” (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).

The Didache
“After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. If you have no living water, then baptize in other water, and if you are not able in cold, then in warm. If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Before baptism, let the one baptizing and the one to be baptized fast, as also any others who are able” (Didache 7:1 [A.D. 70]).

Tatian the Syrian
“Then said Jesus unto them, ‘I have been given all authority in heaven and earth; and as my Father has sent me, so I also send you. Go now into all the world, and preach my gospel in all the creation; and teach all the peoples, and baptize them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit’ [Matt. 28:18-19]” (The Diatesseron 55 [A.D. 170]).

Hippolytus
“When the one being baptized goes down into the water, the one baptizing him shall put his hand on him and speak thus: ‘Do you believe in God, the Father Almighty?’ And he that is being baptized shall say: ‘I believe.’ Then, having his hand imposed upon the head of the one to be baptized, he shall baptize him once. Then he shall say: ‘Do you believe in Christ Jesus . . . ?’ And when he says: ‘I believe,’ he is baptized again. Again shall he say: ‘Do you believe in the Holy Spirit and the holy Church and the resurrection of the flesh?’ The one being baptized then says: ‘I believe.’ And so he is baptized a third time” (The Apostolic Tradition 21 [A.D. 215]).

 

[Dogknox20]

Your view of baptism is one that is fairly widely shared in the US, but it certainly not shared by all Christians in the US or in the world. The "believer baptism" is found in scripture, certainly -- early Christianity was established by conversion. The scriptures do not address the raising of children as Christian children of Christian parents, and scripture does not support the view that children raised in the faith literally from the cradle need to undergo the conversion and believer baptism that early converting adults did/do. As to full submersion, again, this is not a universal view. Don't misunderstand me -- I have nothing against full submersion. But it seems legalistic to insist upon it and without foundation to claim that it is an absolute requirement.

GardenLady I add it would not be practical for the Eskimo to be submersed under water; Where would they get so much water other then the artic ocean!? Baptism "IMMERSES" the person into the Holy Body of Jesus! If they are "IN Jesus' holy body" then they also would rise because no "BODY" can die more then once! Jesus died NEVER EVER to die again!

Believers Baptism is not scriptural it is a "Man made TRADITION"!
Scriptures... Acts 2:40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

3000 people were ADDED to the Holy Body of Jesus the first day of Pentecost by "BAPTISM"!

 

[Muffled]

I am sure all use the scriptures to justify their reasoning so please post the scriptures!

Scriptures otherwise can we believe it!? Being told; baptism does not save without support from scriptures becomes a TRADITION.

1Pet 3:21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

I believe one might think this means baptism saves but what it is really saying is that a good conscience saves. A person who gets baptized without a good conscience is not saved. I had a good conscience long before I was baptized.

 

[Muffled]

Baptism saves just like water saved eight souls in Noah's day (1Peter 3:20,21).

1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21 ¶ The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Believe + Baptism = Saved (Mark 16:16)

TRUE / FALSE

I believe belief is enough:
Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

[Dogknox20]

1Pet 3:21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

I believe one might think this means baptism saves but what it is really saying is that a good conscience saves. A person who gets baptized without a good conscience is not saved. I had a good conscience long before I was baptized.

Muffied I hope all is well... A good conscience sounds good but.... a "Conscience" is not a reliable means to move a person towards good behavior! Some people have corrupted consciences thinking they have the responsibility to kill other people they deem to be bad! I think of Hitler as a good example.
............................................
DICTIONARY DOT COM
conscience
an inner feeling or voice viewed as acting as a guide to the rightness or wrongness of one's behavior.
"he had a guilty conscience about his desires"
...............................................

The verse before verse 21 (above) tells us "Baptism is like the ARK Noah used to be saved"!
Muffied I think of Baptism this way.... Moses was saved from the slavery of Egypt by crossing through the waters of the Red Sea! Pharos army was destroyed by the waters! Baptism saves us from the slavery of sin by washing it away much like Pharos army was washed away!

On the first day of Pentecost 3000 were IMMERSED into the Holy RISEN Body of Jesus! 3000 were thus saved because they were ADDED to Jesus' body their sins were removed and they received the GIFT of the Holy Spirit!

38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

Muffied Baptism saved 3000 people! No one can baptize themselves the Church re-forms the children of Adam into the new adopted children of God! Baptism IMMERSES us into the Body of Jesus IF.....
Muffied if you are IMMERSED into the risen body of Jesus you also will rise IF you are IMMERSED into the risen Body of Jesus then you also can call God.. Father!

 

[Nova2216]

I believe belief is enough:
Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

The scripture you posted also mentions action on the part of man.

"CONFESSION "

The scripture you posted disagrees with your position.

Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Must one confess Jesus s the Son of God to be saved according to (Rom. 10:9)

Believe + Confession (Rom. 10:9)

 

[Dogknox20]

The scripture you posted also mentions action on the part of man.

"CONFESSION "

The scripture you posted disagrees with your position.

Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Must one confess Jesus s the Son of God to be saved according to (Rom. 10:9)

Believe + Confession (Rom. 10:9)

Hello Nova2216 it's good to meet you.... FIRST to answer your post; you must understand the epistle of Romans is addressed to the Baptized it is addressed to those who have been IMMERSED into the Body of Jesus!
LOOK...
Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them ...
Nova2216 Clearly from the verse above: Disciples are made by BAPTISM!
Matthew 12 tells you.. Disciples are brothers of Jesus! 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers.

Baptism; Immersion into the body of Jesus makes us God' children, baptism makes Jesus our brother! >>> WE become the FAMILY of God! All the Baptized are "Brothers & Sisters"!
Romans 10:1 starts with... Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2 ....
Nova2216 All of Romans is addressed to the SAVED to those people that have been IMMERSED into the Body of Jesus Romans is addressed to "Brothers & Sisters" of Jesus! Only the Baptized can claim Jesus is brother!

Nova2216 When we get down to your verse and others on Romans 10.....
Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. To be Baptized you MUST accept Jesus as lord! LOOK....
>>>>>> Acts 2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”
40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

Nova2216 Do you see it?! 3000 were ADDED to the Body of Jesus the first day of Pentecost by BAPTISM! 3000 became Brother & Sister of Jesus! 3000 were IMMERSED into the Holy Body of Jesus by BAPTISM! Acts comes first, long before Romans.. Romans is addressed to the Baptized we know this because it started with 10:1 Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire.......
You cannot be IMMERSED into the Body of Jesus if you reject Jesus is lord! NO ONE....
Nova2216 no one can baptize themselves! Church "The Bride" does the re-forming with water, Jesus "The Groom" sends the GIFT the Holy Spirit! The Saved have TWO, TWO, TWO parents not only one! I have a mother the Church I have a father God! THINK: No father gains the title "Father" unless a Mother gives birth! If you claim God is your father then (who said the owl) who is your mother!

Believe + Confession (Rom. 10:9) Yes >>>>> Acts 2:38 BELIEVE be baptized confess your sins for the forgiveness of your sins. Receive the gift be saved!

 

[Dogknox20]

The scripture you posted also mentions action on the part of man.

"CONFESSION "

The scripture you posted disagrees with your position.

Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Must one confess Jesus s the Son of God to be saved according to (Rom. 10:9)

Believe + Confession (Rom. 10:9)

I add to your post #76... Look at John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Jesus is still talking to Nicodemus just before 3:16 Jesus told Nicodemus to have life you need to be born with Water PLUS Spirit! John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

Jesus is telling Nicodemus in context all together... "BELIEVE ME have eternal life you must be re-formed of water & Spirit!" RIGHT....
Nova2216 right after Jesus finishes talking to Nicodemus he goes out and baptizes with WATER!
John 3:22 After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized. 23 Now John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were coming and being baptized. CLEARLY...

Nova2216 clearly baptism is with water! Next.... Look at this...
Acts 8:36 As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water. What can stand in the way of my being baptized?”38 And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him. 39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing.

This story starts out this way; Philip was told by God to go to the Eunuch and teach him.. Philip starts teaching with the Old Testament that water Baptism saves otherwise how would you explain this verse (above) # 36 Clearly Philip was teaching Water is needed to be Baptized clearly God wanted the Eunuch baptized with water. Clearly Philips work was not finished until he had Baptized the Eunuch with water! Church baptizes with water it RE-FORMS Adams children into God' children baptism IMMERSES us into the Holy Body of Jesus! Jesus sends the GIFT! Jesus baptizes with The Holy Spirit and FIRE!
33 And I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’

The GIFT....Is the Holy Spirit!
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Church makes DISCIPLES of all nations BAPTIZING!
Jesus/God sends the Holy Spirit as Gift to "Guide the Holy Church into All Truth"; to remain FOREVER with Jesus holy the Bride; The One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church!

 

[Nova2216]

Hello Nova2216 it's good to meet you.... FIRST to answer your post; you must understand the epistle of Romans is addressed to the Baptized it is addressed to those who have been IMMERSED into the Body of Jesus!
LOOK...
Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them ...
Nova2216 Clearly from the verse above: Disciples are made by BAPTISM!
Matthew 12 tells you.. Disciples are brothers of Jesus! 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers.

Baptism; Immersion into the body of Jesus makes us God' children, baptism makes Jesus our brother! >>> WE become the FAMILY of God! All the Baptized are "Brothers & Sisters"!
Romans 10:1 starts with... Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2 ....
Nova2216 All of Romans is addressed to the SAVED to those people that have been IMMERSED into the Body of Jesus Romans is addressed to "Brothers & Sisters" of Jesus! Only the Baptized can claim Jesus is brother!

Nova2216 When we get down to your verse and others on Romans 10.....
Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. To be Baptized you MUST accept Jesus as lord! LOOK....
>>>>>> Acts 2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”
40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

Nova2216 Do you see it?! 3000 were ADDED to the Body of Jesus the first day of Pentecost by BAPTISM! 3000 became Brother & Sister of Jesus! 3000 were IMMERSED into the Holy Body of Jesus by BAPTISM! Acts comes first, long before Romans.. Romans is addressed to the Baptized we know this because it started with 10:1 Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire.......
You cannot be IMMERSED into the Body of Jesus if you reject Jesus is lord! NO ONE....
Nova2216 no one can baptize themselves! Church "The Bride" does the re-forming with water, Jesus "The Groom" sends the GIFT the Holy Spirit! The Saved have TWO, TWO, TWO parents not only one! I have a mother the Church I have a father God! THINK: No father gains the title "Father" unless a Mother gives birth! If you claim God is your father then (who said the owl) who is your mother!

Believe + Confession (Rom. 10:9) Yes >>>>> Acts 2:38 BELIEVE be baptized confess your sins for the forgiveness of your sins. Receive the gift be saved!

My post was to show the error of faith alone.

I see you are Catholic.

Must one believe BEFORE one is baptized according to (Mark 16:16)?

If one can baptize a baby without belief, why not just grab a full grown man off the street and force him to be baptized without belief in the gospel.

It is basically the same thing.

Neither one is biblical.

 

[Dogknox20]

My post was to show the error of faith alone.

I see you are Catholic.

Must one believe BEFORE one is baptized according to (Mark 16:16)?

If one can baptize a baby without belief, why not just grab a full grown man off the street and force him to be baptized without belief in the gospel.

It is basically the same thing.

Neither one is biblical.

I agree... The Faith of the Parent is needed! BUT.... The Church does state even an unbeliever can baptize in an emergency!