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Featured Why do some Christians reject Baptism saves?

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by Dogknox20, Sep 5, 2020.

  1. Iymus

    Iymus Active Member

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    1Co 2:14
    -----------------------------------


    reference post: www.religiousforums.com/threads/why-do-some-christians-reject-baptism-saves.236848/#post-6805205
     
    #41 Iymus, Sep 6, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2020
  2. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    Yes... in the realm of possibility, you can construct any possibility. Then again, it is possible that Aquila and Priscilla weren't (if we are going with possibilities).

    If the thief was baptized unto repentance with John... he wouldn't have continued robbing and wouldn't be on the cross three years later... so I don't quite think your position holds water (pardon the pun)
     
  3. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    Quoting scripture without how it connects doesn't help... for example your quote:

    Romand 10 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

    This is talking about the law that didn't exist during Abraham, nor did he try to establish his own righteousness, so it doesn't even apply to Abraham.

    So, if I take that as your approach, I notice that you quote scripture without proper application and can probably assume you continued that format.
     
  4. Eyes to See

    Eyes to See Active Member

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    Hmm...

    Look Jesus said:

    "Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man." - John 3:13.

    Now I said that this means that no one has ascended into heaven but the one who descended, Jesus Christ. He obviously returned to heaven after he was raised from the dead. I did not interpret this did I? Did I merely not just quote what Jesus Christ himself said? So it is not I but Jesus saying this. I did not interpret it to mean anything other than what he said. Correct?

    Let us go to a few of the other scriptures I quoted. For example:

    "Moreover, brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who are sleeping in death..."-1 Thessalonians 4:13.

    I said I believe this to mean that the holy ones whom Paul was talking about are sleeping in death. Now I did not interpret that scripture did I? Did I not just merely report what the scripture said?

    Or this one:

    "After that he appeared to more than 500 brothers at one time, most of whom are still with us, though some have fallen asleep in death."-1 Corinthians 15:6.

    Now here Paul said that most of the 500 believers who saw Jesus Christ after he was raised from the dead were still alive. But some of them had "fallen asleep in death." I simply report what the Bible states, some of the holy ones had died. Notice the Bible does not say they went to heaven. It says quite plainly they had "fallen asleep in death." They are sleeping in death. I am not interpreting that scripture to mean anything other than what it says.

    Now the Bible over and over and over says that the dead are asleep. So how is the belief that no one has gone to heaven not supported by the Bible, when the Bible is the one that states that fact?

    When Lazarus died, the Bible does not report he went to heaven. Jesus did not teach that. His followers didn't think Lazarus went to heaven. Jesus said that Lazarus was asleep in death:

    "After he said these things, he added: “Lazʹa·rus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him...Jesus said to them plainly: “Lazʹa·rus has died”-John 11:11.

    What was the hope of those for Lazarus that he was alive in heaven? No, they knew he was asleep and he would be resurrected during "the last day" that is the millennial reign of Jesus Christ over the earth:

    "Jesus said to her: “Your brother will rise.”  Martha said to him: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day."-John 11:23-24.

    There is a pattern all throughout the Bible talking of death as a sleep. Jesus referred to it as a sleep. The Jews whom he was with knew of the future resurrection during the last day. They did not believe the spirit survived death, or that the dead are alive somewhere.

    The Bible clearly states:

    "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all."-Ecclesiastes 9:5.

    The teaching that people go to heaven or hell, or purgatory, or anywhere else and are alive is not found in the Bible. These are man-made doctrines and traditions that go against what they Bible states.

    Now there are scriptures that refer to a future resurrection on earth, and also a future resurrection of a select few to heavenly life.

    And if you read those scriptures about the resurrection to heavenly life it refers only to the holy ones, the anointed Christian congregation who are chosen to rule as kings over the earth. And they will sleep in death as we have already seen, until Jesus returns. Then, at that time, during his manifestation in heaven, he will raise those asleep in death, and then those who remain alive will be caught away with them into the clouds.

    I will quote this first part of the scripture before the rest so you can take time to digest what it is saying. Notice it says that the holy ones to be raised to heavenly life are sleeping in death:

    "For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death..."-1 Thessalonians 4:15.

    So what I am teaching you here may be a new thing for you. But it is definitely in the Bible. It is supported by the Bible. It is a Biblical teaching. I did not interpret anything. Merely stated what scripture says over and over repeatedly. Do you see this? Have your eyes been open? Please read these scriptures and see what they say for yourself.

    Notice that those who will be raised to heavenly life have "fallen asleep in death." They are awaiting in death for the manifestation of Jesus Christ at his return during which time they will then be raised to heaven:

    I will complete the scripture:

    "Because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.  Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord. So keep comforting one another with these words." vs 16-18.

    Now you quoted a couple of scriptures. And none of them are in disagreement with the Biblical teaching that the dead are sleeping awaiting Jesus' return. For example you quoted Revelation 6, let's read it:

    "They shouted with a loud voice, saying: “Until when, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” And a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they had been."-Revelation 6:10. 11.

    So those who are called to go to heaven plead "until when?" They are told in this prophecy to "rest a little while longer." They are resting, that is asleep in death. They are not raised to heaven yet. They will not be raised until the full number is complete of those who are about to be killed as they had been. Jesus will raise them all together during his manifestation in heaven in kingdom glory.

    Can the dead cry out to God? This is not the first example in the Bible of righteous ones calling to God for justice after dying. Remember when Cain killed Able? The Bible says:

    "At this He said: “What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood is crying out to me from the ground."-Genesis 4:10.

    I have much more to say, and many more texts I could add. But to accept new understanding takes time. It is like going from a dark room to outside lit by the sun at noon with no clouds in the sky. The light can be t0o bright at first. It takes time for the eyes to adjust. And only a humble one will accept adjustment. And that is the heart that is agreeable to God.
     
    #44 Eyes to See, Sep 6, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2020
  5. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    You are absolutely right... and forgive me for not posting scripture.

    Yes, they passed through water as a typology but to what? Or is it the Red Sea that is the typology with the Red being the blood of Jesus that washes away our sins? There are many typologies such as the word of God washing as in Ephesians 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, and John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. So there are many applications.

    So let's look at it differently.

    1) When the High Priest entered into the Holy of Holies, if he wasn't covered, he would die in the presence of God's holiness. As I understand it (as much as I am still learning) for a person to have an indwelling presence before being born-again and re-created, he would simply die because of the Holiness of God entering into a Temple that had not been created by the hand of God. (Exodus and Leviticus) and thus John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for theHoly Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) 1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

    2) So, if to receive the Holy Spirit one must be born again, it would be impossible to be filled with the Holy Spirit and not be born again. If to be born again, to be filled with the Holy Spirit, requires that you first must be baptized, then Cornelius and his family and friends could never have been filled without first being submersed in water. Yet Act 10 says they were filled before being baptized.

    I am happy to know, however, that we both can agree that one should be baptized in water.
     
  6. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    Ok... but let's look at that with the following perspective:

    1) Culture and language. We tend to think that what we say in the 20th century has the same meaning in Hebrew and in their culture. Can be an error. Even in Spanish today, in Puerto Rico a word would be OK "Un bollo de pan" whereas in Cuba you just insulted the person and could be knocked out.

    So when Jacob "slept with his fathers", he is talking about dying and not soul sleeping. Soul sleeping is a modern interpretation of what is meant of "he is dead" - as with Lazarus.

    However, IF you are right... it would have to hold true throughout the Bible,

    2) Rev 6: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

    These are dead but yet speak. They are asleep yet talk. So it doesn't hold true throughout scripture and thus, I would have to reject your viewpoint.
     
  7. Eyes to See

    Eyes to See Active Member

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    Read my reply. I explained what that scripture meant already.

    Here I will quote myself if you don't feel inclined to return to read my reply. I do suggest you actually do though. It will open your eyes to this truth I am revealing to you from the Bible...

    Quoting myself from above:

    Now you quoted a couple of scriptures. And none of them are in disagreement with the Biblical teaching that the dead are sleeping awaiting Jesus' return. For example you quoted Revelation 6, let's read it:

    "They shouted with a loud voice, saying: “Until when, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” And a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they had been."-Revelation 6:10. 11.

    So those who are called to go to heaven plead "until when?" They are told in this prophecy to "rest a little while longer." They are resting, that is asleep in death. They are not raised to heaven yet. They will not be raised until the full number is complete of those who are about to be killed as they had been. Jesus will raise them all together during his manifestation in heaven in kingdom glory.

    Can the dead cry out to God? This is not the first example in the Bible of righteous ones calling to God for justice after dying. Remember when Cain killed Able? The Bible says:

    "At this He said: “What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood is crying out to me from the ground."-Genesis 4:10.

    I have much more to say, and many more texts I could add. But to accept new understanding takes time. It is like going from a dark room to outside lit by the sun at noon with no clouds in the sky. The light can be t0o bright at first. It takes time for the eyes to adjust. And only a humble one will accept adjustment. And that is the heart that is agreeable to God.
     
    #47 Eyes to See, Sep 6, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2020
  8. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Hello, Dogknox. Okay, so when you're a week or two old, your parents take you to church and a priest sprinkles you with water and you're home free? Nothing matters after that. All past and future sins are magically erased. I'm not sure what your past sins might be since you're just a baby and have no conception of right and wrong. And as for the future sins, are you telling me you won't commit any once you're baptized or that you will, but those sins won't matter? If I've understood you correctly, I can't say I agree with your interpretation. (Also, your perspective doesn't sound much like that of any Catholics I've known in the past.)
     
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  9. Mindmaster

    Mindmaster Well-Known Member
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    Nope, not interested in starting my own church. I thought about it once for giggles, but that's all it would be. I lack the arrogance and righteous fervor that it'd take to pull it off, but in my book that's a good thing.

    As far as the 'Same Faiths' I simply did not notice. I'll apologize for my error. I'll discontinue on this thread mostly because I'm not debating anyway just sort of emoting my sentiments. :D

    I don't quote scripture not for any lack of knowing them. (Trust me, if my Grandmother wasn't a woman she'd have been a priest. Probably one of the best ever. She literally learned Spanish just to talk to her next door neighbors about The Bible.) They don't fit 'me', and probably never will. I feel like you do what you're lying to people consciously by saying something that you don't believe in at all, but you feel some sort of 'duty' to them. I just evade the entire scenario and keep my integrity.
     
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  10. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    That really doesn't make sense.

    If they are sleeping, they can't be speaking.

    Able's blood doesn't address what we are talking about any more than the blood of Jesus, who isn't sleeping,

    Hebrews 12:24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.
     
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  11. Dogknox20

    Dogknox20 Active Member

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    Hello... Fool.. I don't understand your scriptures ...10 Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me.”
    What has Matt 28:10 got to do with baptism and salvation?

    The topic of the thread is.. "Why do some Christians reject Baptism saves"?
    Jesus died never ever to die a second time.. NO ONE..
    Fool
    no one can die twice! What we have to do is get ourselves IMMERSED into the risen Jesus!

    1 Thess 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
    If immersed into the Holy Risen resurrected body of Jesus we will have life eternally!
     
  12. Dogknox20

    Dogknox20 Active Member

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    Good points... I reply! John Baptized for the forgiveness of sins! You would think with NO sins we are saved! But with out sins we still have to be IMMERSED into the risen body of Jesus!
    Yes the Red Sea is a typology.. Proving God uses material things to work out our salvation! Naaman was saved from sickness by water! The Red sea is a typology of Baptism!
    Noah is another typology!
    1 Peter 3:21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
    We are saved by being IMMERSED into the resurrected body of Jesus!

    WE have to be re-Formed and we have to receive the GIFT! LOOK (below)
    44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

    Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ
    .

    KenS they received the GIFT (above verse) but the Church** still needed to do her part! WATER PLUS SPIRIT!!! Not Spirit alone! Peter with the AUTHORITY of Jesus "Speaking in the name of Jesus" representing Jesus; Peter ORDERED that they are baptized with water!
    KenS When you represent someone it is said "You speak in their name"! in the name of Jesus Christ. Another example is Matthew 28 the Great Commission... "Baptize in the Name of the Father with the Authority of the Father!" Baptize in the Name of the Son with the Authority of the Son!" Baptize in the Name of the Holy Spirit with the Authority of the Holy Spirit!"
    With the AUTHORITY of God Form God' children!
    You quote 1 Corinthians 6:19 this addressed to the Baptized, to the Disciples; To the "Brother and sisters!"

    As to your point #2... I reply: I addressed your point above**
     
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  13. Dogknox20

    Dogknox20 Active Member

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    Thank you for your post.. I reply.... Baptism ADDS you the risen Body of Jesus just as the scriptures tell you.. 3000 were ADDED the first day of Pentecost! BUT.....
    Big but .... We have to stay "In Jesus"!
    LOOK... Brothers and sisters are the Baptized they are in the FAMILY!

    1 John 5:16 If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that.

    Katzpur What do you read? (above verse) Clearly some of the saved can be lost!

    I ADD... Baptism ADDS you to the Holy Risen body of Jesus what we have to do is REMAIN in that same body!
    LOOK..
    56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.

    1 John 2:24 As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father.

    Katzpur I like to think of it like this... All peoples are descendants of Adam. What we have to do is get FORMED anew.. Formed into the Body of the second Adam! The Bride/Church does the re-forming of Adams children with water! The Groom/God sends the GIFT the Holy Spirit! THUS...
    Katzpur
    thus the re-born the re-formed have TWO parents a Mother and a Father: Bride and Groom!
    Does Baptism add us to the risen Body of Jesus? YES! If we STAY in his holy Body we will also live forever!
     
  14. Dogknox20

    Dogknox20 Active Member

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    Mindmaster All I can say is... If you have questions.. Honest questions; I can answer them. I am NOT a philosopher but must say; I do know the scriptures! I know my faith! Please don't be put off or stop searching all of us are searching Augustine said... "None will rest until they rest in Jesus!"
    If your Grandmother is not around anymore I can be your surrogate grandmother.. Ask away!
    God bless
     
  15. Dogknox20

    Dogknox20 Active Member

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    Something to think about........
    Many say.. Baptism does not save.... They say: "Look the good thief was not baptized and he went to heaven"! Yes the good thief died before Pentecost he died before he could be baptized; he died before the "Holy Church" was empowered by God the Holy Spirit! The good thief went to Paradise a garden NOT the throne room! The Children of God enter the throne room! The good thief because he was not IMMERSED into the body of Jesus was not a Child of God!

    Luke 7:28 I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

    John the Baptist also died before Pentecost he also was not immersed into the Holy Body of Jesus! John did not enter the "Kingdome" he like the good thief also ended up in Paradise! To believe baptism does not save you MUST reject many scriptures! FACT IS..... To believe "Baptism saves" you must jettison the man made TRADITION of "Saved by only faith"!
     
  16. Nova2216

    Nova2216 Active Member

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    The problem you have is that you are not arguing with me, but with God and his word.

    Who do you think will win that argument?

    That is why I post scriptures.
     
  17. Nova2216

    Nova2216 Active Member

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    (Acts 8:13-24) and (1Jn 1:6-9) and (Luke 15) and (2Peter 2:20-22) and (Heb.10:26-31) ALL disagree with you on this matter.

    Also notice - 2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

    Once saved always saved is false.
     
  18. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    Thanks for your demeanor and the great tone of this post.

    I don't think you really addressed my point of #2. If I understand correctly, you cannot be baptized in the dunamis of the Holy Spirit with His indwelling presence without being saved.

    Cornelius had to be saved to be filled with the Holy Spirit. Therefore the baptism in water would be an act of obedience but not for salvation.

    In my view, it would be impossible for a part of this cursed world to have the power to cleanse. However, the washing of the water by the word of God does. So I still see it as an act of obedience that is fulfilled because you are saved.

    I don't want to diminish the importance of the obedience in baptism in water, no more than to diminish the requirement to forgive and to love. All are requirements for a Christian life.

    But in my view it is impossible to receive the Holy Spirit indwelling presence without being a new creation, a temple of the Holy Spirit created by the Hands of God. Certainly that is what happened to me and there was a knowing that I was a son of God before I got baptized and my life change was immediate before I was baptized.

    I know that we probably won't change our stance. But I am happy that we can agree that believers should be baptized in water.
     
  19. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    As did I. Maybe you should take a course? Or learn from @Dogknox20 ?

    One thing for sure, your method for convincing isn't very convincing. ;)
     
    #59 KenS, Sep 7, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2020
  20. Dogknox20

    Dogknox20 Active Member

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    I reply...
    You miss the scriptures that tell you "The Baptized receive the Holy Spirit"! Acts 2... "Be BAPTIZED for the forgiveness of sins and you will receive the GIFT of the Holy Spirit"!
    You cannot receive the Holy Spirit until your sins are forgiven! "Be BAPTIZED for the forgiveness of sins"!

    You said... "Cornelius had to be saved to be filled with the Holy Spirit". To say this you must reject Acts 10... Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
    KenS WATER PLUS SPIRIT! Not Spirit alone!

    Think
    "John the Baptist" was full of the Holy Spirit but he also died before Pentecost.. He died before he could be IMMERSED into the holy Risen body of Jesus! The Good Thief ended up in a garden NOT the throne room thus he was NOT a Child of God!... With this thought in mind read this verse... Luke 7:28 I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

    KenS Question did John the Baptist enter the throne room? Was he baptized by the empowered Church!? NO! At best he like the Good thief enter the Garden because he was not BAPTIZED by the Bride! the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he

    Think: No one can baptize themselves Church baptizes! Church has ALWAYS used water! ALWAYS HAS BAPTIZED WITH WATER!
    Hermas A.D. 80
    “‘I have heard, sir,’ said I [to the Shepherd], ‘from some teacher, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.’ He said to me, ‘You have heard rightly, for so it is’” (The Shepherd 4:3:1–2 [A.D. 80]).
    &
    Justin Martyr A.D.151
    As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly . . . are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]” (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).
    KenS did you see it? in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated.!
    KenS there can be no mistake>>> The early Church Baptized with water to save! The Early Church has ALWAYS taught must be born again to enter the kingdom!

    Jesus baptizes with Spirit the Groom/God sends the Gift/Spirit; The Bride/Church reforms with WATER! TWO... TWO... TWO parents not just one! NO ONE....
    KenS no one has just one parent! Think a Father does NOT gain the title "Father" until a mother gives birth! You cannot claim "God is my father" without having a mother!
     
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