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Why Do Some Christians Not Recognize The Holy Mother Of Jesus?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by SunMessenger, Jun 26, 2006.

  1. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    You didn't read a thing I wrote. :(

    If that culture dictated Christian Theology, then why does the Bible refer to God as a mother? Why do we have such things as feminist theology and liberation theology? That culture did not "dictate" our theology. Their culture may have informed some of their understanding of theology, but our own culture has informed our own understanding of theology, too. No. This is not a cultural issue at its base, but a theological one.
     
  2. SunMessenger

    SunMessenger Catholic

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    It is my understanding that Mothers were held in high regard by their children even in the time of Christ. Overall however I can not deny that woman in general may have not been given equal consideration as a societal issue. I do not know for sure...
     
  3. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Mothers were held theologically in high regard, because they bore the race. Women were held culturally in fairly low regard, because they embodied shame, whereas men embodied honor.
     
  4. ProfLogic

    ProfLogic Well-Known Member

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    Unless Mary was never a mother at all... purely fabrication... based on the birth of tammuz legend in pagan religion.....
     
  5. SunMessenger

    SunMessenger Catholic

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    Could it be that the Bible was framed differently than it would have been if written today ?Could it be that the Woman's roles were down played a bit in order to be accepted by the earlier generations that were to follow it so as to not come into societal conflict ?
     
  6. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    That's one exegetical argument.
     
  7. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

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    I never said you couldn't. I just wouldn't stop there and venture into how the Christians of the time and beyond understood it. Which ventures into Christian theology.
     
  8. SunMessenger

    SunMessenger Catholic

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    It is my feeling that there is much we have yet to learn about the Bible. I wonder if what we read with only a human perspective is the entire Word. Could there be more there than we as humans can really see or observe. Given that God has all knowledge and understanding . Could it be that it was written advanced beyond the intellect of mere mortals of the time ? Could it even be beyond our intellect today to completely understand all its meaning ? Could this be why some things like The Holy Mother are not mentioned too frequently ? Could these items remain left for The Second Coming to understand ? I do not profess to have any of these answers. These questions do indeed spark interest however .
     
  9. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    What is it with you lately, sojourner? You didn't used to be so anti-Mormon? (Or at least you kept it pretty well-hidden.) The Bible aludes to the fact that we should not worship Mary. That's all SoyLeche was saying. And you come up with some lame argument about Joseph Smith?

    FYI, so do the Latter-day Saints. At least we recognize her as an incredible woman from whom we can learn a lot about what it means to accept God's will in our lives.
     
  10. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

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    I completely agree. Do LDS believe Catholics or others that see her in high esteem do this?
     
  11. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Obviously, I can't really speak for all Latter-day Saints any more than you can speak for all Catholics, so I'll just explain how I see the Catholic veneration of Mary. To the best of my understanding, Catholics worship only God -- or at least that's what I hear them say. But, I do see considerably greater focus on Mary than I suspect Jesus would have wanted. It's hard for me to understand how she would be able to intercede on our behalf and I cannot think of anywhere in the Bible where it is even remotely suggested that she has been given the ability to hear prayers that are offered to her or respond to them. In other words, if a Catholic asks Mary to pray for him or act as an intermediary between him God, Mary would have to be in a position to hear His prayer and take some kind of action. Jesus never taught that this was her role, and I don't believe it was seen by His contemporaries as her role. I think she was an incredible woman in every conceivable way, but I don't think she can hear prayers or perform miracles or grant blessings to deserving individuals. And unless I'm mistaken, Catholics do believe she can do all of those things. Am I right or wrong, Victor?
     
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  12. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

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    I can assure you that no official RC documents tell us to worship Mary. On the contrary the Church has put a stop to any movements that have even attempted (and there have been some) it. And yes she can hear prayers and perform miracles because of the Grace of God. This follows from our doctrine of the Communion of Saints which is not restricted to Mary alone.
     
  13. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    When do we see this doctrine first taught. (You know where I'm going here, buddy. :D )
     
  14. fromthe heart

    fromthe heart Well-Known Member

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    Although I do reccognize the Blessed Mother of Christ I pray only to God in the Name of Jesus Christ...no where in the Bible does it say we are to pray to Mary even though she was the mother of the Savior...to do so IMPO would be the same as putting Mary in line with God and for me this is not proper. I do however sometimes talk to her but not prayerfully...we are to pray ONLY to God and seeing when asked how we are to pray Jesus gave the prayer He did not at anytime say to pray through any past saints such as Elisha,Moses,Noah,etc. This is just MY personal feelings and does not take away from the feelings of others.:)
     
  15. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    I personally choose not to ask Mary to pray for me because when the veil was torn..."the middle man (or woman)" was no longer necessary.

    There's an open door of communication between my Heavenly Father and I. I need only pray in the name of Jesus Christ.

    I do not however, have a problem with acknowledging that Mary was the Mother of God. She was.

    I personally have never felt compelled to ask her to pray for me when I can ask my family to pray for me and I can pray directly to my Father in the name of my Saviour, Jesus Christ.
     
  16. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Both of you have perfectly expressed how I feel. I pray directly to God, my Father in Heaven and I do so in the name of His beloved Son, Jesus Christ. I recognize Mary as His Mother and have a tremendous respect for her. I simply don't believe that we should pray either to her or through her. That is not what her Son would have wanted, in my opinion.
     
  17. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Hi, SunMessenger.

    I'm just curious... Do you make any kind of a distinction between the following?

    1. Recognizing the mother of Jesus.
    2. Respecting the mother of Jesus.
    3. Praying to the mother of Jesus.

    I kind of get the impression that you don't. I think that a great many Christians, including myself, recognize and respect the mother of Jesus. We also recognize and respect our own mothers. But we don't pray to the mother of Jesus any more than we would pray to our own mothers if they were dead. What I find myself wondering is what, specifically, Mary did that would make God want us to pray to her. Granted, she was the mother of our Savior. But she did not atone for our sins. She did not lay down her life for us. She has no power to save us. She was a great woman, but is this fact reason enough for us to actually pray to her?

    By the way, you come across as a deeply sincere individual who is commited to his faith. I really do admire you for that, regardless of the fact that I don't agree with you that we should pray to Mary.
     
  18. SunMessenger

    SunMessenger Catholic

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    This quote is From Victor ,"I can assure you that no official RC documents tell us to worship Mary. On the contrary the Church has put a stop to any movements that have even attempted (and there have been some) it. And yes she can hear prayers and perform miracles because of the Grace of God. This follows from our doctrine of the Communion of Saints which is not restricted to Mary alone"


    The Catholic Church is remarkable and stubborn at times. I understand why those in authority are. They must attempt to preserve the original mission as closely identical to the way it started as can be done. Over the centuries it would easily be distracted from its original Doctrine if it allowed change too frequently. The Leaders of The Church have a difficult task in not allowing outside influences to change the original mission. Well That Is Why Pope John Paul touched my heart so much. He was well aware of what the mission was and did it well. While doing it He gave to The Holy Mother every respect and devotion. He gave Her the Church in total and even credited Her with saving his life. He was not afraid to say that publicly. He believed as I do that we are at a great cross road in time. It is said He had visions and insights provided by God to make this statement long before the end of life . He said ,

    "We are now standing in the face of the greatest historical confrontation humanity has gone through. I do not think that wide circles of American society or wide circles of the Christian community realize this fully. We are now facing the final confrontation between the Church and the anti-Church, of the Gospel versus the anti-Gospel."



    Karol Cardinal Wojtyla (Pope John Paul II), November 9, 1976


    What do you think of this Man ?
     
  19. SoyLeche

    SoyLeche meh...

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    Maybe it's just me, but isn't this a different topic deserving its own thread? I wouldn't want you to hijack your own thread :)
     
  20. SunMessenger

    SunMessenger Catholic

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    I am going to try to answer this without breaking any rules. I do recognize The Mother Of Jesus. I Do Respect The Mother Of Jesus. I Love The Mother Of Jesus. I Pray with The Mother Of Jesus to help me to get clearer with my prayers. I have promised Her three things. One is in my signature regarding the forgiveness of sins. The second is to Never Let Anyone Forget The Passion Of Christ and the third is to give all Authority to God Almighty as I carefully pass the word.As you know I spend a lot of time on the computer praying for us all. I try to temper my message without violating any rules so that I am able to communicate to all faiths. Her Message is clear and I temper my words so as not to Offend anyone who may not believe in Her as I do .It is not easy at times as I too have been warned once in a while. I will use my sincere wish for the Good Of All Of Us to get through. It is there that I understand Pope John Pauls Message the clearest. "Be Not Afraid!" and "Praise Jesus Christ!" I hope that answered the question sorry to go on and on. Be Well and God Bless...
     
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