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Why Do Some Christians Not Recognize The Holy Mother Of Jesus?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by SunMessenger, Jun 26, 2006.

  1. SunMessenger

    SunMessenger Catholic

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    Why not give The Holy Mother Of Jesus Prayer? Why are some Christians so against this? We give respect to our own mothers. Why not The Holy Mother Of Jesus Christ? If You read some information about Her Message it only asks for prayer and repentance for sins. Whats so wrong about that ? I thought I would inquire. Be Well and God Bless...
     
  2. SoyLeche

    SoyLeche meh...

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    Luke 11:27-28

    Jesus shot down the woman that tried to elevate his mother to that status.
     
  3. SoyLeche

    SoyLeche meh...

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    Can you show any biblical support for the idea of praying to anyone other than God?
     
  4. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Can you show any Biblical support for the idea that Moroni spoke to Joseph Smith? I think it's unfair to knock the extra-Biblical beliefs and practices of others, when much of your own faith is "extra-Biblical."

    While I'm not as Marian as the OP, I think we ought to revere Mary for her faith and her role as one of the saints of the Church. I love the Rosary, and I pray the Rosary with some regularity. It's a beautiful way to pray.
     
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  5. SoyLeche

    SoyLeche meh...

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    So, I can't ask a question? I thought this was a debate. There was no reason at all for that non-sequiter.
     
  6. SoyLeche

    SoyLeche meh...

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    I have provided a passage that seems to contradict the idea that we should pray to Mary (although I'll admit it isn't conclusive).

    If the answer is that there is no Biblical reason, that's fine. I'm not in the business of telling people what to believe. If there is anything, though, I'd like to see it.
     
  7. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Except it's kind of the pot calling the kettle black.
     
  8. Silicon Hero

    Silicon Hero Member

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    Well I dont know about you but My God says, You will have no other Gods or idols before me. So I really dont feel like praying to another God that he didn't tell us to. Plus Mary is not a deity. She was just chosen to bear Jesus.
     
  9. MysticSang'ha

    MysticSang'ha Big Squishy Hugger
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    I sure wish Victor would respond to this, as I think he'd give a better answer than I could give, but this is what I dug up:



    http://www.catholic-cadet.com/apol/maryprayer.html


    Why do Catholics pray to Mary?

    This question is a common one among non-Catholics, who don't understand why Catholics pray to her, often wondering why we don't "just pray to Jesus alone."

    The reason is rooted in the Catholic belief in the communion of saints. As we are all members of Christ's Body and united with each other and the rest of the Church, no matter how far apart we are in space, so too are we members of Christ's Body and united with the rest of His Body and Church even after our physical death, no matter how far apart in time. For it is not our bodies that are united in Christ's Body, but our souls, and death is merely the separation of the body and soul. Thus, when we die, we remain one with the Church and become closer to our God.
    What does this have to do with praying to Mary though?
    Well, we not only can pray for each other, interceding for each other, but are told by St. Paul to do so (Ephesians 6:18; 1 Timothy 2:1-2). So the saints in Heaven, including the Blessed Virgin Mary, will continue to offer prayer to God on our behalf. Now, how do any of the members of Christ's Body know to pray for the other members? Sometimes they can see, but more commonly they are asked, and that is why we pray to Mary, so we can ask for her prayers on our behalf. Why ask her for her prayers? Because, as St. James says, "The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective." (James 5:16).
    But isn't prayer worship?
    No, it isn't. While it has taken on that connotation in the large majority of modern Protestantism, it does not strictly mean worship. It's older meaning, retained by Catholicism, is that of asking, making an entreaty. Consider this line of Shakespeare: "No; I pray thee speak in sober judgment." (Much Ado About Nothing Act 1, Scene 1, Line 70). Now, is Claudio worshipping Benedick when he prays to him? No, rather, he is asking him to do something. Similarly, we find in the King James' Bible's translation of Genesis 12:13 "Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee." Now, is Abram worshipping Sarai, or he is asking her to do something?
    But still, don't Catholics worship Mary?
    Well, if you use the old sense of the word worship, then we do. However, the old meaning of worship was of honor. For this reason, judges in the United Kingdom are still addressed as "Your Worship", even though no one would ever presume to call this address idolatry. In fact, the Greek word used to refer to worship in the New Testament, proskuneo, is simply a general word meaning "in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication a. used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank 1. to the Jewish high priests 2. to God 3. to Christ 4. to heavenly beings 5. to demons" (Source).
    Worship, according to the old meaning, is divided up into three forms. Dulia is that honor and praise which is given to the saints in Heaven. Hyperdulia is that given to the Blessed Virgin Mary, who is the most holy of all human beings (aside, of course, from Christ) and who played a unique role in the salvation of mankind, in giving birth to our Salvation (nowadays, the term veneration is used when referring to dulia and hyperdulia so as to avoid confusion with the modern meaning of worship). The last form of worship is latria. In this form consists of all praise and glorification that belongs to God alone, and the adoration that belongs to Him alone. No creature of His can be adored without it being idolatry.

    In the more modern meaning of the word worship, we do not worship Mary, of course. As the Catechism of the Catholic Church notes:
    "§2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon." Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast" refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God."​
    Finally, it is impossible for a Catholic to actually worship Mary. For Catholic worship consists in the Sacrifice of the Mass (where Christ's sacrifice on the cross is made present and offered up to God the Father in worship and for the forgiveness of sins), also known as the Divine Liturgy. The very nature of Catholic worship thus makes it impossible for us to worship Mary.
    Don't Catholics commit idolatry when they bow to images of Mary though? After all, the Second Commandment (in Protestant numbering, it is part of the First Commandment in Catholic numbering) says: "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image."
    The problem here is a lack of context. After all, God later commanded the Israelites to make two images of cherubim and one of a bronze serpent (the cherubim to decorate the ark, the serpent to heal those bitten by snakes). Did God violate His own law? Of course not. What this commandment forbids is the making of idols, the making of a graven image that is then worshipped as though it were God. What Catholics do is give honor to the one that image represents. Similarly, a soldier who salutes a flag does not commit idolatry, as the Jehovah's Witnesses say, but rather gives honor to the nation for which it stands for and those soldiers who have shed their blood for that flag.
    But isn't the saying of the Rosary an example of the vain and repetitious prayers condemned by Christ in Matthew 6:7?
    No, the Rosary is much different from the repetitious prayers of the pagans. What they would do is throw out the names of as many gods as they could in the hopes of being heard. We however have the assurance of being heard by God and the saints, there is no need to try and hope that one of the saints will hear us and aid us. Furthermore, the Rosary is primarily a series of meditations, which lead to a deeper spiritual communion with God. Finally, there is nothing wrong with continually asking, and asking many times, for prayer and aid. For Christ says: "And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly" (Luke 18:7-8).
    Isn't the title that Catholics have given Mary, "Mother of God", blasphemous?
    Mother of God is simply a title that emphasizes a truth about Christ, namely, that He is God. Christ's twin natures, His human and divine natures, cannot be separated. He is completely, 100%, man, and completely, 100%, God, at the same time and for all time since His Incarnation when Mary conceived. Since it is impossible to separate His twin natures, it may truly be said that she gave birth to the Word made Flesh, that she gave birth to God Incarnate, and that she nursed and raised God. Because of this the Church has said that she is indeed the Mother of God.



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    I think the answer is thorough and biblically supported. But, like I'd said........I wish another current Catholic would chime in. :angel2:




    Peace,
    Mystic
     
  10. SoyLeche

    SoyLeche meh...

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    It's good to see that it isn't only the Mormons on this forum that tend to assume that all comments made about them on this forum are with an intent to ridicule. I asked a simple question, and now you've gone on to use both a non sequitur and an ad hominem.

    Can we just discuss the OP, or is that not allowed?
     
  11. MM21

    MM21 Member

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    I’m pretty sure it is a beautiful way to pray, but I have to agree with Soy. If Jesus himself shot a woman down for praying to his mother, are we not to live by that example? Why would we do something that Jesus instructed the woman not to do? Aren’t we to follow Christ in His footsteps hand and hand, to listen to His words (with scripture) and use that to guide our lives? I really don’t see it as knocking others practices and beliefs, it’s just not Biblical. That is when the problem arises.
     
  12. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Must all praxis be Biblical?
     
  13. Mystic-als

    Mystic-als Active Member

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    I personally have no problem with you praying to anyone. Mary, Jesus, the Devil.
    But I won't pray to any one of those. Not Mary because she was not born holy like Jesus' was. If I can pray to Mary then you can pray to me. Because I am as holy as she was.
    And this is biblical. When Jesus died he made it possible for all men (and woman) to be heirs (sons/daughters) of God. He also made us sinless by the significance of the blood. So we are righteous and heirs of God. Just like Mary.
    I do however think she was a great woman, for God to have trusted her with Jesus. Most definitly! I have more respect for Joseph though. He had to marry a wife who was pregnant and trust that she was a virgin. That for me would have been very difficult.
    How do you frubal Joseph?
     
  14. SoyLeche

    SoyLeche meh...

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    That's worth discussing. Obviously, I don't believe so. However, when you are dealing with something that is specifically spoken against in the Bible (i.e. worshipping anything other than God - and I know, you will say that praying to and worshipping are different, but most non-Catholics/Orthodox will disagree) - there ought to be some justification other than that it's just done that way.
     
  15. MysticSang'ha

    MysticSang'ha Big Squishy Hugger
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    *gives exasperated sigh*




    OK, you two............enough with the banter. When are y'all going to notice ME and MY POST?!?!?!? :D



    Look back four or five posts earlier, and you'll see a Catholic response to questioning prayer to Mary.




    Peace,
    Mystic
     
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  16. SunMessenger

    SunMessenger Catholic

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    Since I have never heard a claim that The Holy Mother is God, then is praying for Her to pray with us worship of another God ? The Commandments ask us to Honor Both Our Father and Mother. Since these are from God does it not make sense to Honor Mary ?


    "Honor your father and your mother, as the LORD your God has commanded you, so that you may live long and that it may go well with you in the land the LORD your God is giving you."
     
  17. SoyLeche

    SoyLeche meh...

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    It would make sense for Jesus to honor Mary, which he did - and it didn't require praying to her.

    I won't be praying to my mother after she dies, and I don't think Christ expects me to pray to his mother.

    Just so you know, I do honor and respect Mary. I believe she was one of, if not the greatest woman to ever walk the Earth. I only pray to God though.
     
  18. SunMessenger

    SunMessenger Catholic

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    That was a wonderful post and quite truthful. Thanks
     
  19. SunMessenger

    SunMessenger Catholic

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    I am not here to convince only discuss and I understand your position. I would say however if one believes in the commandments and extrapolates them to include Jesus then His Father is indeed ours and deserves honor and his Mother is also ours. In that logical debate She would also be deserving honor as well . What do you think ?
     
  20. SoyLeche

    SoyLeche meh...

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    Like I've already said - I do honor/respect her. I don't see how that needs to equate to prayer though.
     
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