Why Do Some Christians Believe in a Closed Canon

[Thanda]

Many Christians I have spoken to believe the Bible is not just the word of God but the WHOLE word of God and the ONLY word of God.

I find this idea confusing. To me the whole Bible is evidence of a living God who speaks to his children especially through prophets: but also personally. God called and spoke and revealed himself to prophet from Adam to Noah, Noah to Abraham, Abraham to Moses, Moses to Isaiah, Isaiah to Christ (of course was more than a prophet), Christ to Peter, Peter to Agabus etc. Now if God called prophets both before Christ and after him (thereby negating the argument that because Christ came there didn't need to be any prophets) then why do some Christians believe there can be no prophets in our day. And if there can be prophets, where are they? And if they are around why are their words not added to the Bible?

 

[Breathe]

I'm not sure if this section still functions as a 'green' DIR, or if the rules still allow people who used to adhere to a faith to answer questions (so mods, please delete if it's no longer appropriate) but I was given the reason it was found in The Book of Revelation. However, this area used to be green, and the rules still permit responses in green areas, so... here goes.

18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll.
19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

- Revelation 22:18-19
​

Where "this scroll" refers to not just Revelation but the whole Bible.
And also that the fullness of God was to be found within the Bible itself. Of course, there are probably other people with different views.

Mods, feel free to delete if not.​

 

[Thanda]

I'm not sure if this section still functions as a 'green' DIR, or if the rules still allow people who used to adhere to a faith to answer questions (so mods, please delete if it's no longer appropriate) but I was given the reason it was found in The Book of Revelation. However, this area used to be green, and the rules still permit responses in green areas, so... here goes.

18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll.
19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

- Revelation 22:18-19
​

Where "this scroll" refers to not just Revelation but the whole Bible.
And also that the fullness of God was to be found within the Bible itself. Of course, there are probably other people with different views.

Mods, feel free to delete if not.​

Okay. Could you please clarify a couple of things for me.

What evidence is there that the book of revelations was the last book to be written

Secondly, what evidence is there that John was talking about the whole bible and not just his own book. Especially since there was no "bible" at the time he wrote revelations.

Thirdly, how would it logically make sense for God to stop talking to people during the time he himself said would be the most difficult. Or is that He ran out of things to say?

 

[Thanda]

I'm not sure if this section still functions as a 'green' DIR, or if the rules still allow people who used to adhere to a faith to answer questions (so mods, please delete if it's no longer appropriate) but I was given the reason it was found in The Book of Revelation. However, this area used to be green, and the rules still permit responses in green areas, so... here goes.

18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll.
19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

- Revelation 22:18-19
​

Where "this scroll" refers to not just Revelation but the whole Bible.
And also that the fullness of God was to be found within the Bible itself. Of course, there are probably other people with different views.

Mods, feel free to delete if not.​

Also how could one conclude that the phrase "this scroll" refers to the whole bible especially since we could not possibly fit in any one scroll.

 

[Kolibri]

A temporarily closed canon can be drawn from a few passages. Here is a logic chain for when the canon would be completed and when it would be reopened in the Christian Greek Scriptures.

"Love never fails. But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, (That is, miraculous speaking in other languages.) they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away with. For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially, but when what is complete comes, what is partial will be done away with. When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, to think as a child, to reason as a child; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the traits of a child. for now we see in hazy outline (or "indistinctly.") by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face-to-face. At present I know partially, but then I will know accurately, (or "fully.") just as I am accurately known. Now, however, these three remain: faith, hope, love; but the greatest of these is love." 1 Cor 8-13

Paul likened the Christian arrangement of things to a child that would grow up. Once it grew up special gifts of the spirit would cease, but faith, hope and love would remain. What were these special gifts? Some are listed here. But they are broken down more thoroughly in the chapter prior.

"Now there are different gifts, but there is the same spirit; and there are different ministries, and yet there is the same Lord; and there are different activities, (or "operations.") and yet it is the same God who performs them all in everyone. But the manifestation of the spirit is given to each one for a beneficial purpose. For to one is given speech (or "a message.") of wisdom through the spirit, to another speech of knowledge according to the same spirit, to another faith by the same spirit to another gifts of healing by that one spirit, to yet another operations of powerful works, to another prophesying, to another discernment of inspired expressions, to another different tongues, (or "languages.") and to another interpretation of tongues. But all these operations are performed by the very same spirit, distributing to each one respectively just as it wills." - 1 Cor 12:4-11

Note that one of these early gifts was "discernment of inspired expressions." After Christianity leaves its infancy, there would no longer be anyone that could discern directly what was inspired writings and what was correspondence that was limited in use to the audience it was written to. The last of the 12 apostles died near the end of the 1st century. John was used to contribute a gospel, a book of prophetic visions, and 3 letters to the canon somewhere around 96-98 C.E. Once he died there would be no one we could reliably look to as one that had this early gift of "discernment of inspired expressions". "What is complete" would have arrived.

Now post-Armageddon it would be a different story. Re 20:12 points to a time when scrolls not yet opened will be revealed. As yet imperfect mankind will be judged according to how they respond to the things written in them.

"And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. The dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds." - Re 20:12

 

[Thanda]

Paul likened the Christian arrangement of things to a child that would grow up. Once it grew up special gifts of the spirit would cease, but faith, hope and love would remain

In the chapter you quoted, Paul speaks of seeing darkly but that in that future time (the time when prophecies and other gifts will cease) we will see face to face. Who will we see face to face? That is God, Christ and the Holy Angels of course. And when will that be? That will be either when we are dead or during the Millenium. In Jeremiah 31:34 we have the following:

And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.​

It is clear then that since everyone will have full knowledge of the past, present and future there will be no need for anyone to prophesy to someone else. And since the Lord will be here personally along with the Holy Angels there will be no need for Mortals to ask other mortals for information about the things of God. And since there will be no sickness, there will be no need for the gift of healing and so forth. Therefore the reason why some gift will fail will be because there will no longer be a need for them.

But clearly we have not reached that state yet. The world has never been more wicked than it is now. The world has never been more confused as it is now. And not only the world: but many of those professing to be Christians are confused as well. So there never was a time in the history of mankind when we needed revelation and other gifts of the spirit as we do know.

Also you spoke of faith as one of the three gifts that would not fail. Often when Jesus healed, he cited faith as the reason he was able to heal "Thy faith hath made the whole". Faith and gifts are closely related. When Jesus sent forth his Apostles to the world he this to say according Mark 16:

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.​

So as long as faith does not cease, signs and gifts and miracles will also not cease. For where there is faith, the power of God is manifest. So unless we can prove that we no longer have need for the Gifts of God then we cannot say his Gifts have ceased. And if it appears to us that His gifts have ceased then perhaps it is an indication that faith has ceased also.

In conclusion, we need God to reveal his will and give His guidance to the Church today as much if not more than was needed during the days of the Paul and Peter. And since we need it and God loves us and always gives what we need, there is no reason to believe there can be no new revelations today, and no reason to believe He cannot give us more of His word than what has been written in the Bible.

 

[Thanda]

Note that one of these early gifts was "discernment of inspired expressions." After Christianity leaves its infancy, there would no longer be anyone that could discern directly what was inspired writings and what was correspondence that was limited in use to the audience it was written to

It seems a curious thing to me that when Christianity matures, people will be less gifted. In fact it appears to be a contradiction. Christ was the Most mature person in the Gospel and he worked miracles. Elijah, Elisha, Moses etc were all very mature in the Gospel and yet they could do miracles. It seems to me more logical that the more a person matures in the Gospel the more gifts he is able to manifest.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

It seems a curious thing to me that when Christianity matures, people will be less gifted. In fact it appears to be a contradiction. Christ was the Most mature person in the Gospel and he worked miracles. Elijah, Elisha, Moses etc were all very mature in the Gospel and yet they could do miracles. It seems to me more logical that the more a person matures in the Gospel the more gifts he is able to manifest.

Gifts aren't things you learn, or signs of maturity, they're literally gifts from God, we can't earn them. Gifts have a purpose, and the more miraculous ones namely reveal God's character to people or authenticate a message. With the Scriptures complete, God has most perfectly revealed Himself through His Son. God can still act through miraculous gifts if He so chooses, but the Scriptures are sufficient.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Many Christians I have spoken to believe the Bible is not just the word of God but the WHOLE word of God and the ONLY word of God.

I find this idea confusing. To me the whole Bible is evidence of a living God who speaks to his children especially through prophets: but also personally. God called and spoke and revealed himself to prophet from Adam to Noah, Noah to Abraham, Abraham to Moses, Moses to Isaiah, Isaiah to Christ (of course was more than a prophet), Christ to Peter, Peter to Agabus etc. Now if God called prophets both before Christ and after him (thereby negating the argument that because Christ came there didn't need to be any prophets) then why do some Christians believe there can be no prophets in our day. And if there can be prophets, where are they? And if they are around why are their words not added to the Bible?

"God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world." (Heb. 1:1-2)

“The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone forces his way into it." (Luke 16:16)

"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you." (John 14:26)

Up until John the Baptist, there was a distinct period of the Law and Prophets that ended.

In these last days, God has spoken to us by His Son. There really is no greater revelation than from God Himself on the earth.

How do we know what the Son has said? By turning to those whom Jesus promised the Holy Spirit would bring them into remembrance of everything He did say, namely the Apostles (and those closely associated with the Apostles). In this way we have the most perfect revelation of God through Jesus Christ, faithfully given by His Apostles in the New Testament. There is no new information that needs to come after Jesus, for Jesus is the fulfilment of the Law, when the Son of God comes to earth, what more would one need after? Jesus has already sent the Holy Spirit as a seal of salvation, to keep us and indwell us until His return, there is no promise of someone else to come in the New Testament, some other prophet to give us new information simply isn't there.

The authority we know from what Jesus says are in His own Apostles. We have no guarantee of anyone else, and no reason to believe anyone else, especially not from the Scriptures, for God has spoken to us "in these last days" in His Son, there is no need for another. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 tells us that the Scriptures can make a man "complete" or "perfect", and equip a man for every good work. The New Testament does speak of prophecy and prophets, but this is different to the OT because we have the Scriptures by which we are told to test them. Paul does tell us to not despise prophecies, but then goes onto say that we must test everything and hold onto what is good. The Scriptures are that infallible measure by which we test, and modern day prophecies cannot be at that level, for Jesus promised the Holy Spirit to remind the Apostles of all things, there is no reason to trust anyone else.

 

[Kolibri]

many of those professing to be Christians are confused as well.

Is it any wonder that many are confused?

"If, in fact, the good news is veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, among whom the god of this system of things [That is, Satan.] has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination (or "light.") of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine though." - 2 Cor 4:3,4

As regards these last days, an angel recorded in the book of Daniel had something to add to this as well.

"Then he said: 'Go, Daniel, because the words are to be kept secret and sealed up until the time of the end. Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand; but those having insight will understand.'" - Daniel 12:9

Only those with spiritual insight will understand. The rest of the world will think those with insight are fools when 1 Thess 5:3a comes true.

Even now, people do not realize that Isaiah 2:2-4 is a prophesy about God's people during the "final part of the days" and not for the time after Armageddon. Because of not understanding this, professed Christians end up getting involved in warfare or learning war. The tactful thing to say here is, until the light is made available to people, the choice to stay blind or to lose the veil was not available to them - which is why Mt 24:14 is being fulfilled.

As regard Mark 16, anything after verse 8, whether the short or the long conclusion, has been shown to be spurious. Manuscript L 019 (Codex Regius of the eighth cent.) contains both the long and the short conclusions after vs 8, giving the short conclusion first and prefixing to each conclusion a note that says these passages are current in some quarters, while evidently not recognizing either conclusion as authoritative.

 

[Thanda]

Gifts aren't things you learn, or signs of maturity, they're literally gifts from God, we can't earn them. Gifts have a purpose, and the more miraculous ones namely reveal God's character to people or authenticate a message. With the Scriptures complete, God has most perfectly revealed Himself through His Son. God can still act through miraculous gifts if He so chooses, but the Scriptures are sufficient.

I would would disagree with you. Using the very scriptures you say are complete (I will question you later as to how you came to this knowledge) as I have already quoted Jesus said "signs will follow them that believe". He did not say they might depending, he said they will.

Further the argument that the scriptures are complete and therefore we don't need signs and gifts is grossly incorrect. The scriptures have always been sufficient (in a sense) to save mankind. The Israelites were saved who believed the things taught and written by Moses and there it means their scriptures were "sufficient". Abraham was saved with whatever scriptures he had which means they too were sufficient. Noah was saved with whatever scriptures he had which means they too were sufficient. I hope you get my drift. The scriptures being "sufficient" is no excuse for God not to continue to work with signs and gifts especially when he himself said that signs will follow them that believe. Note here that I do not say that we need signs in order to believe - that is sign-seeking and the Lord said a evil and adulterous nation seeks for signs. But what I am saying that signs will follow those who believe (who believe with no signs but who received signs after they believe as a confirmation that their faith is acceptable to the Lord). One of the signs that Jesus promised was the Gift of the Holy Ghost. Has that sign also ceased? Of course not. So if that sign has not ceased then who gives any of us the authority to claim that other signs have ceased?

 

[Thanda]

The authority we know from what Jesus says are in His own Apostles. We have no guarantee of anyone else, and no reason to believe anyone else, especially not from the Scriptures

In Romans chapter ten we have the following:

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent?​

Paul hear makes it clear that people can only believe in God if they have someone who is sent preach to them. To be sent means to have authority. God sent his Son: therefore His Son had authority. His Son sent his apostles: therefore his apostles had authority. The apostles sent other elders like Stephen. Therefore the Elders had authority. Unless someone is sent by someone they cannot have authority.

Secondly, speaking of Paul, he never met Christ or walked with him. Yet you quote him as someone having Authority. How did he become an Apostle having Authority? The same way Matthias did. He was called of God and given Authority by the Apostles. Therefore it is clear that Apostolic Authority can and was passed on from one person to another regardless of whether that person had ever met Christ. So why did the Apostles cease then? Why didn't just keep sending more and more?

Thirdly, if authority is needed to preach the Gospel and direct the Church (as it clearly was in the Church Jesus built) then how could the church have continued if the Authority ceased? That means there would be no one to teach and no one who could believe. That also means no one could baptize and bestow the Gift of the Holy Ghost. That means no one could be saved - regardless of the scriptures being present.
From Paul's words it therefore appears that the scriptures, though "sufficient", apparently cannot help people get saved without people who have authority from God.

Jesus clearly said when he came that he came not to destroy the law and prophets but to fulfill what they said concerning his coming. His coming therefore did not signal an end to the Prophetic calling. The only things that came to an end were those that signified his coming and his mission such as the mosaic law of sacrifice. But the ten commandments, for example, continued.

Also, concerning the Holy Ghost: what makes you think the Holy Ghost being sent after Christ came meant that the people would no longer need prophets and apostles? Do you suppose that people did not have the Holy Ghost in the times before Christ? John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Ghost from his mother's womb. Mary had the Holy Ghost come upon her in order to conceive. Isaiah and Daniel saw visions by the power of the Holy Ghost, Jeremiah prophesied the destruction of Jerusalem by the power of the Holy Ghost. Moses performed miracles and gave laws by the power of the Holy Ghost. And yet just because the Holy Ghost was present it did not mean people did not have need prophets and Apostles.

 

[Thanda]

As regard Mark 16, anything after verse 8, whether the short or the long conclusion, has been shown to be spurious. Manuscript L 019 (Codex Regius of the eighth cent.) contains both the long and the short conclusions after vs 8, giving the short conclusion first and prefixing to each conclusion a note that says these passages are current in some quarters, while evidently not recognizing either conclusion as authoritative.

Do you realize that you have just proved my point that the scriptures are not infallible? That the Bible is not the WHOLE word of God. It has had many hands fiddle with it who have added, changed and removed some things.

But with regards to the specific scriptures you say were added later: the truthfulness of what was written is manifest in what transpired after the Apostles taught the gospel to others. The Holy Ghost came upon people and signs and gifts were manifest in the church.

 

[Kolibri]

Do you realize that you have just proved my point that the scriptures are not infallible? That the Bible is not the WHOLE word of God. It has had many hands fiddle with it who have added, changed and removed some things.

But with regards to the specific scriptures you say were added later: the truthfulness of what was written is manifest in what transpired after the Apostles taught the gospel to others. The Holy Ghost came upon people and signs and gifts were manifest in the church.

The copies of the scriptures are not infallible. But we literally have thousands of manuscripts and fragments for comparison. Not every family of copies makes the same errors, so the original thoughts can be transmitted accurately into our day. By Daniel 12:4 we know that the preservation of the critical details into the time of the end is assured. (Seriously do we need have the number at 1 Samuel 6:19 to be verified to be 70, 50,000 or 50,070 men? Or do we need to know if Ezekiel 40:49 is 11 or 12 cubits?)

But the existence of miraculous works today is not proof of the holy spirit specifically. Recall that in the days of Moses, Moses and Aaron were not the only one empowered to perform miracles.

"So Moses and Aaron went in to Phar'oah and did exactly as Jehovah had commanded. Aaron threw his rod down before Phar'oah and his servants, and it became a big snake. However, Phar'oah summoned the wise men and the sorcerers, and the magic-practicing priests of Egypt also did the same thing with their magic. (or "their magical arts.")" - Ex 7:10,11

Who empowered these Egyptian priests to perform their miracles? Since Paul wrote that the early gifts would be ended when "what is complete" arrives it give a person even more reason be cautious when they seem to be copied today.

"Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired statement, (Lit., "every spirit.") but test the inspired statements (Lit., "the spirits.") to see whether they originate with God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world." - 1 John 4:4

 

[Thanda]

The copies of the scriptures are not infallible. But we literally have thousands of manuscripts and fragments for comparison. Not every family of copies makes the same errors, so the original thoughts can be transmitted accurately into our day. By Daniel 12:4 we know that the preservation of the critical details into the time of the end is assured. (Seriously do we need have the number at 1 Samuel 6:19 to be verified to be 70, 50,000 or 50,070 men? Or do we need to know if Ezekiel 40:49 is 11 or 12 cubits?)

But the existence of miraculous works today is not proof of the holy spirit specifically. Recall that in the days of Moses, Moses and Aaron were not the only one empowered to perform miracles.

"So Moses and Aaron went in to Phar'oah and did exactly as Jehovah had commanded. Aaron threw his rod down before Phar'oah and his servants, and it became a big snake. However, Phar'oah summoned the wise men and the sorcerers, and the magic-practicing priests of Egypt also did the same thing with their magic. (or "their magical arts.")" - Ex 7:10,11

Who empowered these Egyptian priests to perform their miracles? Since Paul wrote that the early gifts would be ended when "what is complete" arrives it give a person even more reason be cautious when they seem to be copied today.

"Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired statement, (Lit., "every spirit.") but test the inspired statements (Lit., "the spirits.") to see whether they originate with God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world." - 1 John 4:4

We're not really going to agree here I guess. Nothing of what you're quoting proves that there should be no gifts today. Your quote about testing the spirits proves nothing since it has always been a required to test the spirits. There have always been all kinds of spirits abroad since Adam.
On your point about gifts ceasing I have already provided you proof from the very text you quoted that the time has not come yet.

I'll tell you what I think. Revelations and visions stopped after the church fell into apostasy. Many of Paul's letters were admonishing the church to keep from going astray. It is clear that even then there were many challenges in the Church. Paul talks about there were already "some of Apollos, some of Paul and some of Christ" within the church. Paul spoke about the falling away the would occur. Jesus spoke told his apostles that he was giving the the Keys of the Kingdom so that whatsoever the bound on earth would be bound in heaven. Without this authority the church could not continue. Yes there were still good people who believed in God. But there was no authority to baptize, give the gift of the Holy Ghost and to generally direct the church. And without the Gift of the Holy Ghost there could be no more visions, revelations, signs and gifts and no more word of God being revealed. Thus fulfilling the words of Amos when he said "Behold the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord. And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it."
Note how the scripture says there will be a famine of hearing the word of the Lord - not of reading it. This mirrors what Paul spoke about the need for hearing from a preacher who has been sent (who has authority). There is absolutely no indication in the scriptures that God would ever stop speaking to His children and revealing more of His word except in cases of wickedness.

 

[Kolibri]

On your point about gifts ceasing I have already provided you proof from the very text you quoted that the time has not come yet.

I need to give your proof a little more attention, it seems. Sorry I am not a thorough as I should be. I am, for whatever reason, letting myself go with out enough sleep.

That will be either when we are dead or during the Millenium. In Jeremiah 31:34 we have the following:
And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Jeremiah 31:34 is already fulfilled and still in fulfillment. This is in regards to those in the new covenant specifically. Those have been in the gathering since the new covenant was inaugurated as memorialized by the Lord's Evening Meal.

"[Jesus] did the same with the cup also, after they had the evening meal, saying: 'This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood. Keep doing this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.'" - 1 Cor 11:25
All of Christ's brothers, as long as they are not approving of themselves to partake without scrutiny, know Jehovah. (1 Cor 11:28) God's spirit convicts them that they are God's children, even though they are still imperfect. (Ga 4:6; Eph 2:1)
Since the new covenant is limited to Jesus' "little flock", it is not all mankind that will know Jehovah as per Jeremiah 31, but only those of this subset of Christians that have a genuine heavenly reward. (John 10:18)
So Jeremiah 31:34 has no bearing on when the special gifts would end as this prophesy is not about all mankind.

The gifts were present for the specific reason that they allowed for a very quick growth in the infancy of the Christian arrangement for worship, it provided evidence that the approved form of worship had been transferred from a nation of natural decent to a nation that really imitated Abraham's faith. (Ga 3:7,26-29) After the Jewish system of things was destroyed in 70 C.E. there was no further need for validation. The result of what happen on Passover of 33 C.E. (Da 9:26a) was what happened by means of the Roman armies as foretold at Da 9:26b.

 

[Thanda]

I need to give your proof a little more attention, it seems. Sorry I am not a thorough as I should be. I am, for whatever reason, letting myself go with out enough sleep.



Jeremiah 31:34 is already fulfilled and still in fulfillment. This is in regards to those in the new covenant specifically. Those have been in the gathering since the new covenant was inaugurated as memorialized by the Lord's Evening Meal.

"[Jesus] did the same with the cup also, after they had the evening meal, saying: 'This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood. Keep doing this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.'" - 1 Cor 11:25
All of Christ's brothers, as long as they are not approving of themselves to partake without scrutiny, know Jehovah. (1 Cor 11:28) God's spirit convicts them that they are God's children, even though they are still imperfect. (Ga 4:6; Eph 2:1)
Since the new covenant is limited to Jesus' "little flock", it is not all mankind that will know Jehovah as per Jeremiah 31, but only those of this subset of Christians that have a genuine heavenly reward. (John 10:18)
So Jeremiah 31:34 has no bearing on when the special gifts would end as this prophesy is not about all mankind.

The gifts were present for the specific reason that they allowed for a very quick growth in the infancy of the Christian arrangement for worship, it provided evidence that the approved form of worship had been transferred from a nation of natural decent to a nation that really imitated Abraham's faith. (Ga 3:7,26-29) After the Jewish system of things was destroyed in 70 C.E. there was no further need for validation. The result of what happen on Passover of 33 C.E. (Da 9:26a) was what happened by means of the Roman armies as foretold at Da 9:26b.

Kolibri, you are contradicting yourself. Firstly you say it was because the church was still small and needed to grow and that is why there were spiritual gifts. And then later on you say that not everyone will know the Lord but only a "little" flock. So if the flock is still little, then it appears the growth has not yet happened.

Also, another point to consider is that Salvation is a personal thing. People are not saved in groups. They are saved individually. So God does not expect anybody to live off anybody else's experience. He reveals himself anew to to each man that comes unto Him. He proves His power to each person who has faith in Him. He covenants with each person who will have him to be their God. Therefore it is irrelevant whether Peter or Paul were able to perform miracle for people living today. People living today need to have their own experiences so they can bear their own original testimonies.
Imagine, somebody claiming to you that the miracles of Jesus in the Bible are false and mythology. If you have never been able to experience the signs and gifts of the Holy Ghost you can only really argue with them so much. But if you have personal experience then you can Boldly declare that you KNOW (not believe) that Jesus was able to do those miracles by the Power of the Holy Ghost because you have experienced the same. These are the kinds of powerful testimonies that are needed in these last days. People are needed who KNOW the scriptures are true because they have personally experienced those things which are spoken of in the scriptures; rather than those who merely believe or hope that those things are true.

These are wicked and dreadful times my brother. The devil has put forth all his power so that "if it were possible, even the very elect [will] be deceived". My belief is that God has, in these last days, stretched forth His own hand to counter the power of the Devil by showing forth His power in the faithful. Don't get me wrong Kolibiri, I'm not saying the faithful should be performing miracles everyday - not even Jesus did that. Nor am I saying that we should seek after signs - that is "evil and adulterous". What I am saying is that we should not deny the power of God. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. He is as willing to show forth his power among the faithful today as He ever was in any other time in man's history. The growing unbelief, wickedness and corruption today shows that God's gifts are needed more today, not less.
But when Jesus comes again and the Earth is renewed and the Lord himself dwells among us - then will come the time when the gifts must of course have an end. For there will be no need for healings since sickness will be done away. There will be no need for visions since Angels will be our friends and regular visitors. There will no need for casting out of devils since the Devil will be bound. There will be no need for the raising of the dead since there will be no death. There are only two conditions on which God will cease to work with gifts and power: If there is no faith, or if it is no longer necessary (because there aren't any problems that need his power).

 

[Thanda]

And for the record, I think the stuff the likes of Benny Hinn are doing is disgusting. No true man of God would use the Gifts of the Spirit to take money from the poor.

 

[Kolibri]

Kolibri, you are contradicting yourself. Firstly you say it was because the church was still small and needed to grow and that is why there were spiritual gifts. And then later on you say that not everyone will know the Lord but only a "little" flock. So if the flock is still little, then it appears the growth has not yet happened.

Eh, What is often missed is that Jesus said that there would be two classes of his disciples that would intermingle while they were on here on the earth. A "little flock" and "other sheep". The "new covenant" was only with the "little flock". How little? Well little by comparison. Re 7 contrasts a specific number with a generic one. First there was 144,000 "bought from among mankind" and second there was a "great crowd" that survive the "great tribulation." (Re 7:4,9,14; 14:3b) Eventually all mankind will speak the "pure language" of truth. For now it is just the "Jew and the "ten men". (Zeph 3:9; Zec 8:23)

But the prophesy at Jeremiah 31:31-40 was limited to the "Jew", as demonstrated by the meaning of the "cup" at Luke 22:20 and 1 Cor 11:25. As Paul pointed out, this "know Jehovah" in Jeremiah 31, is in reference to a special son-ship that is granted to select Christians who know that there hope rests in heavenly life provided they die faithfully.

Also, another point to consider is that Salvation is a personal thing. People are not saved in groups. They are saved individually. So God does not expect anybody to live off anybody else's experience. He reveals himself anew to to each man that comes unto Him. He proves His power to each person who has faith in Him.

I agree. Just because there are groups spoken of prophetically does not mean that the individuals have their salvation predestined. Paul, as one of the members of the "little flock" said that at one point, "I am pressing on towards the goal for the prize of the upward call of God by means of Christ Jesus." (Php 3:14) If his individual salvation already was certain, he would not need to keep "pressing on towards" it. Later, right before his death, he could say instead, "From this time on, there is reserved for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will give me as a reward in that day." (2 Tim 4:8)

 

[BilliardsBall]

Many Christians I have spoken to believe the Bible is not just the word of God but the WHOLE word of God and the ONLY word of God.

I find this idea confusing. To me the whole Bible is evidence of a living God who speaks to his children especially through prophets: but also personally. God called and spoke and revealed himself to prophet from Adam to Noah, Noah to Abraham, Abraham to Moses, Moses to Isaiah, Isaiah to Christ (of course was more than a prophet), Christ to Peter, Peter to Agabus etc. Now if God called prophets both before Christ and after him (thereby negating the argument that because Christ came there didn't need to be any prophets) then why do some Christians believe there can be no prophets in our day. And if there can be prophets, where are they? And if they are around why are their words not added to the Bible?

Jesus has come and is the true Word and eternal life. The canon closed with Revelation, which book tells you all you need to know for the end of THIS age....