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Featured Why do some Atheists trust specifically chosen stories about Muhammed as historical fact?

Discussion in 'Comparative Religion' started by firedragon, Jun 11, 2021.

  1. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    No. Asked a dozen times, yet no answer but some Tu Quoque.

    Agreed.

    Muhammed had a baby wife.

    Absolutely.

    Maybe.

    Sorry about the short sentences.
     
  2. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    This is described in Quran, rather then reflecting over clear signs from Quran and Sunnah, people who hearts are dark seek ambiguities from Quran and ahadith. Rather then reflecting over insights, they focus, on what is not clear from guidance of God and seek ambiguities. They dispute and argue for what is not been clearly established.

    My method, doesn't rely on Imel Rijaal, I don't believe that is an objective science. I go the heart of the philosophical clear insights and arguments in Quran and Sunnah and focus on that. This is what leads me to certainty.
     
  3. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Thats good.
     
  4. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    It's a not a principle of reason to abandon what is certain for what it is not.
     
  5. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    I'll take that bet ;)

    The context is pretty much what he says it is. It's very common too and you'll find examples in countless Islam threads here.

    It's not that people are knowingly agreeing with hadiths, they just just aren't aware that basically every detail of Muhammad's life is only attested to in hadith and sirah literature.

    So when people say Muhammad beheaded all the Banu Qurayza or married a child they are not referring to "secular" history, but theological literature.

    People often cite such things as historical fact rather than simply using it to argue against "what Muslims believe".
     
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  6. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Yeah. You nailed it.

    There is no choice but to bring up this same topic over and over again to make an awareness, and to learn some reactions.
     
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  7. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member

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    Sure, as much as anyone else. Are you willing and able to offer any reason to think they don't yet?
     
  8. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    I can't read minds HJ.
     
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  9. F1fan

    F1fan Active Member

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    So this topic is about atheists that no one knows about, no one can identify, or may not even exist, but has beliefs that few, if any, atheists hold.
     
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  10. Alex22

    Alex22 Member

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    Can Muslims even agree what hadiths are correct?. Did Mohammed fly to heaven on a winged horse or not?
     
  11. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Tu Quoque
     
  12. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    This thread is about any atheist who ever quotes any story as historical fact as stipulated in the OP.
     
  13. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    Is theological literature all false? Then the Muslims also should not use it as history.
    Even Quran was complied by Zayed ibn Thabit from various sources including that of his own, and third Caliph Uthman destroyed the differing versions.
     
  14. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    So you use it because Muslims use it? Others do it, so I can do it. But you are an atheist. Dont you have a methodology?

    If this is your method, you must also apply the same to everything Muslims believe and quote. Would you?
     
  15. Fallen Prophet

    Fallen Prophet Active Member

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    You're right - there so many more horrible things Muhammad said and did that they should be focusing on. ;)
     
  16. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Like what?
     
  17. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Alright. So now you have made an example of yourself by saying "Even Quran was complied by Zayed ibn Thabit from various sources including that of his own, and third Caliph Uthman destroyed the differing versions"

    So you have made a historical claim.

    As an atheist, what is the historical method you have applied to validate this historical claim of yours?
     
  18. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    If I am posting about Muslims then Quran and hadiths will be important sources. How does my being a theist or an atheist matters in that? As in everything in history, then we debate what may be true and what may be false.
    Yeah, I have taken this from the Wikipedia page on Quran and they give references for what they write. Quran - Wikipedia

    The best method is to check with an up-to-date unbiased source and Wikipedia is closest to it. Wikipedia has people from all religions as its members. If there are objections, they are critically examined. It is not my claim but it is the conclusion of experts on history.
     
    #78 Aupmanyav, Jun 12, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2021
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  19. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Because an atheist must by default be "independent". Or are you saying you have blind faith where you believe some story with no question or methodology?

    you just quoted something. What is the historical method you used to verify its historicity in order to quote it so confidently?

    Could you explain?
     
  20. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    Muslims have constructed a methodology to 'verify' many things in the Islamic tradition as being anything from (almost) certainly authentic to completely unreliable.

    This methodology uses assumptions that make sense for a believer, but may not make sense for a non-believer.

    Attitudes of 'secular' historians towards this methodology vary from considering it pretty reliable overall, to highly unreliable.

    It is possible to accept some things as likely to contain some degree of truth, while rejecting others, but you should have a legitimate reason for doing this.

    The point raised by the OP is that many non-Muslims simply cherry pick anything negative as "historical fact", while dismissing anything that doesn't suit their agenda as "apologetics" or something similar.

    When this is pointed out to them, they often refuse to believe they are doing it as they are not really familiar enough with the topic to recognise their mistakes.
     
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