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Featured Why do some Atheists, Christians, Hindu's etc., believe in Islamic ahadith so passionately?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by firedragon, Oct 29, 2020.

  1. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    I have asked this question once I believe in this forum but I cannot remember clearly. There was a recent discussion that triggered this question.

    A: Muhammed ordered killing of a woman
    B: Why do you believe that?
    A: Because its in the hadith.
    B: Why do you believe that hadith?
    A: Because Muslims do.
    B: Do you believe everything Muslims believe?
    A: Not everything, but the hadith are all true because Muslims believe it.
    B: So do you believe Muhammed split the moon?
    A: I dont care.

    Hope you get the gist. I would like some insight from you if you have some time.

    Peace.
     
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  2. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest I have the kavorka
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    I don't believe any of it.
    Myth &/or unreliable history it is.
     
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  3. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    I will try. It is in a sense psychology and culture. We are all products of nature and nurture and one narrative is that Islam is "backwards" and can't be any different. How, because some Muslims use these interpretations of the hadith and therefore it is how it is for all Muslims and it can never change.

    I mean, I googled if there were other traditions in Islam, than the ones claim to be universal and authoritative for Islam. There are, but that is not relevant. Islam is set in stone and can't be any different than it is. How, because that is how it is.
    It is culture and psychology in those, who claim it. It fits their narrative.
     
  4. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    I can only make my best guess, but...
    When discussing theological positions with someone it doesn't really work for me to just call bunkum on everything. We end up with no discussion.

    Instead, might focus on beliefs which appear problematic to me, or inconsistent with how someone acts, or generally behaves. Apologies, but I'll use an example from Christianity here, since I'm more familiar with it, but the principle may hold.

    Asking a Christian their opinion on the Book of Job, and the actions of both God and Satan is not indicative of me believing in either being. It's the nature of another person's belief I'm trying to understand. But I wouldn't frame my question in such a way. I'd simply ask (for example) why God allowed Satan to kill Job's children.

    There are lots of answers possible, but it's a pretty informative way to gain a lot of knowledge about someone's beliefs with a single question.

    That's me. I also see people trying to play silly 'gotya' games at times, but ultimately people can play such silly games with me all they like. That's informative too.

    I don't tend to personalise things.
     
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  5. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    Well I think a lot of the time the motive in using this line of reasoning is to discredit Islam rather than to seek genuine discourse.

    But I think that this also arises because people want to have a solid basis for critiquing Islam textually. So with that you have the Quran, the hadith and the Tafsir which people try to analyse. But muslims also move the goalpost on often. So one muslim would say that a certain hadith is true, and then a person will study it, create an argument against it, present it to another muslim, and then the muslim would say that they don't view that hadith as authoritative. So people settle with what you laid out above out of frustration because they either want to convert a muslim or make them just an ex muslim.

    I think you and I might have had a discussion about this in the past long ago.
     
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  6. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    But why would an Atheist have the same dogmatic belief in ahadith?
     
  7. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    Thats perfectly fine.

    But the question is this. If I ask you "did God really order job to kill his children"? How would you answer?

    You would probably say "I dont believe in anything, I am only questioning your belief". Am I correct? But that's not the question I am asking. If you quote this passage from the book of Job as a fact or/and actually historical, and when asked "why do you believe it is" you reply "because Christians say so", that's when the OP is relevant.

    I hope you understand.
     
  8. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    Because it works for those kind of non-religious people. It affirms that Islam is bad.

    Okay, this is not evidence. It is based on my subjective interpretation of debating with a lot of non-religious people. Some, but not all, want religion as such to be bad. Period, it is wrong, evil and so on. So they will use any version of religion, which confirms that outcome.
     
  9. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    I understand. Maybe we all move the goal post sometimes and I do get your point.

    But my question is on the person, not the Muslim. A muslim may move the goalpost and play games to win an argument. But that is a Tu Quoque argument. Why would a non-muslim believe in some ahadith so passionately? It's either hypocritical, or simply ignorance. Maybe that non-muslim had never known any other hadith but only those which he found on a particular website.
     
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  10. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    Yeah. I think you are right.
     
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  11. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    We should do with hadiths that show Islam in bad light what we do with hadiths that show Islam in good light. To reject one and accept another is not fair. Scriptures are promotional material and not history.
     
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  12. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    Yup...if I was asked about the passage, I'd declare my disbelief. If asked about it more as a moral proposition, I'd give it a crack (although that particular example is not so good for that purpose).

    I like transparency.
     
  13. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    That fair is subjective in you. You have no objective evidence for it. It is your subjective evaluation and you don't speak for a "we".
     
  14. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    I respect that.
     
  15. Daemon Sophic

    Daemon Sophic Avatar in flux

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    I am speaking as an agnostic, not an atheist, but I can see the point of your discussion. The atheist may or may not be trying to prove to you that your religion is “evil” and destructive, but rather they are trying to figure you out, and make you self examine why you believe things, and examine how you cherry-pick bits and pieces from your “perfect written word” in your personal story book. In the case of Muslims that story book is called the Quran.

    Personally, I had never heard of these tales about Muhammad until I read the OP.
    So, let’s have a go. The first - Muhammed ordered a woman to be killed. OK. Why?
    That is the most important thing here. Death penalties for murder are old hat, and would be perfectly fine. Why did Muhammed order her death?
    Remember, if it is not a good answer, then your prophet was a violent murdering scum.


    Next. :eek: WTF? He “split the moon”? :eek: Soooooo...... you believe that a human on Earth looked up in the sky, saw the moon, and cracked it like an egg.
    Verrry interesting. :confused::rolleyes:
    And why exactly do you think it odd that other people today, seeing that the moon is in fact fully intact, and shows no evidence what-so-ever of having had a cataclysmic rift torn through it within the last 1500 years....are wrong (or even a bit rude) to ask you about that?

    Do you believe it? Do you believe your own “holy text”? Or are you just choosing to pick bits and pieces to make yourself happy?

    The second side of the atheists questioning is to check your level of sanity.
    The first part was to see if you (and your religion) have any morality.

    Most, like myself, are trying to be better educated by listening to your responses. Other may already know the context of these tales from the Quran, and are trying to convince you that what you follow is make-believe nonsense, and quite possibly dangerous nonsense at that.
     
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  16. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    He's suggesting what 'we should do', not stating anyone elses opinion.
    Grammatically it makes sense.
     
  17. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    Surely what the responses are saying is that these critics of Islam don't believe the hadiths, but are quoting them as a means of showing up what they think are inconsistencies or unreasonable demands in Islam.

    A great many non-muslims (including myself) do not fully understand the relation between the hadiths and the Koran or the degree to which they are seen as authoritative. So that's part of the problem, I expect.
     
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  18. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    Long. :)

    Since I am not of a theistic tradition some of your question are not relevant to me.

    But in a more general sense. I try to make sense of the world so I remain happy. But as for all of your words, which are emotional and evaluative, I hold any feelings, because I can.

    Whether that is right or wrong with objective evidence, I have no idea about that. So we have in effect ended up doing morality and ethics. Well, good luck with that.
    I am a meta-ethical anti-realist and relativist, so I don't believe in any version of prescriptive or normative right or wrong.

    As for sane, I have 3 conditions/disorders/diagnosis relevant to the fun topic of "sane". What is next, now?
     
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  19. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    Well, he doesn't speak for me as a "we" and I don't believe in his fair.
     
  20. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    That was an example mate. Not a real thing. Hope you understand.

    Exactly. So have the same doubt with the other story too mate. Because both are in the same book, same narrator, same author, same end chain, in the same manuscript, written in the same era.

    Thats the question asked from people like you mate. Same question. Do you believe it? Do you believe our “holy text”? Or are you just choosing to pick bits and pieces to make yourself happy?
     
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