Why do people expect God, do miracles?

[InvestigateTruth]

I've answered all your questions you posed following this post, and I haven't heard you explain how yet? Can you clarify now at this point?

Are you saying that, if let's say, right now literally Jesus and angels come down from heaven on the clouds, and everyone sees it, and then Jesus goes to graveyards, physically, literally resurrects the dead people, still no one believes?
Why then God does not do it? Why did Jesus leave even? Why He didn't stay here on earth all these years? God wasn't able to keep Jesus alive for too long?

 

[Windwalker]

Do you believe in Jesus and Bible, because of the Miracles?
If yes, you didn't see the miracles, so why believe them?
If no, then you are comforming to believe you don't need miracles, so, why would God do them?

This is still not answering my original question, which you said you would explain after I answered your questions. I have, and you're asking more. Where is this leading? I'm waiting for you to explain.

So to just go ahead and answer this as well, I've never understood what "believing in the Bible" actually means. You mean like believing it is a divine person or something? No I do not believe in, pray to, or worship the Bible, like it seems some do. I'm a bit more realistic about it than idolizing it that way. I don't practice Bibliolatry. But I do respect it for what it is, of course.

And no, my beliefs have nothing to do with believing in stories of miracles. I believe in God because of personal experience.

So this is correct, we don't need miracles to believe in God. But this does not make your original argument that God doesn't want to take away our free will by simply showing some miracle a valid argument. You, or should I say Bahaullah made a bad argument that people seeing a major miracle would so overwhelm and leave people speechless that they'd have no chance to not believe, that it would take away their choice by proving it to them with overwhelming evidence.

I pointed out that people would still not believe, because everyone would find ways to try to fit what they saw into their ideas of reality. They'd rationalize it away, or interpret to fit some other idea. Did you have an argument to dispute this?

 

[dybmh]

Jesus does speak of His Father as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob

Scripture please?

The fact is that Jesus did say that His God and Father was both Father of Himself and of His disciples and the Jewish nation

Scripture please? Where does Jesus say the father is father of the Jewish nation?

Just a couple of quotes confirming these things will resolve the issue.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

This is still not answering my original question, which you said you would explain after I answered your questions. I have, and you're asking more. Where is this leading? I'm waiting for you to explain.

So to just go ahead and answer this as well, I've never understood what "believing in the Bible" actually means. You mean like believing it is a divine person or something? No I do not believe in, pray to, or worship the Bible, like it seems some do. I'm a bit more realistic about it than idolizing it that way. I don't practice Bibliolatry. But I do respect it for what it is, of course.

And no, my beliefs have nothing to do with believing in stories of miracles. I believe in God because of personal experience.

So this is correct, we don't need miracles to believe in God. But this does not make your original argument that God doesn't want to take away our free will by simply showing some miracle a valid argument. You, or should I say Bahaullah made a bad argument that people seeing a major miracle would so overwhelm and leave people speechless that they'd have no chance to not believe, that it would take away their choice by proving it to them with overwhelming evidence.

I pointed out that people would still not believe, because everyone would find ways to try to fit what they saw into their ideas of reality. They'd rationalize it away, or interpret to fit some other idea. Did you have an argument to dispute this?

I honestly am trying to understand you.
Either Jesus was the Messiah, son of God and all that, or He was an ordinary person who just died.
You say you believe in God because of your personal experience, and you call this a Miracle. So, why God does not show same or similar miracles to others, specially the atheists?

 

[Brian2]

Scripture please?

Speaking of the one God, Jesus said:

Matthew 22:29 Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 31 But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

Scripture please? Where does Jesus say the father is father of the Jewish nation?

Just a couple of quotes confirming these things will resolve the issue.

Luke 6:35-36 – “But love your enemies, do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return. Your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High; for he is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.”

John 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, in whom you have put your hope. 46 If you had believed Moses, you would believe Me, because he wrote about Me. 47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how will you believe what I say?”

So Jesus says that God is the Father of those to whom He was speaking.
Jesus believed Moses and in the books of Moses it says.
Exodus 4:22 Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the LORD, Israel is my firstborn son, 23 and I say to you, “Let my son go that he may serve me.”

 

[Treasure Hunter]

This is sort of continuation of another thread: Suppose today, God sends a Savior

What I see, is almost all people, think, the true God, and true Messengers are supposed to do Miracles.


Why do people expect God to miraculously make everything right, to solve humanity problems?

i mean, if the people do not cooperate with His messengers, and do not follow His guide, do you still expect a true God make everything right Miraclesly? And if that does not happen, do you conclude that, the Messenger was not from the God?

Is that a realistic expectation? Why?

Who says, the true God must do Miracles, by breaking the Laws of nature, and make things happen Miraclesly?

Miracles are expected because they are necessary to do his will which is to establish his kingdom on earth as it is in heaven. I mean, look around at the world with sober eyes. We don’t get from the current state of the world to the promised land without the miraculous.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Why did Jesus leave even? Why He didn't stay here on earth all these years? God wasn't able to keep Jesus alive for too long?

Jesus acted out the story. The Bridegroom is with us and then leaves to prepare the way. Then, the spirit of truth is sent to us to guide us into the Kingdom. This is how it is written on our souls.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

So, why God does not show same or similar miracles to others, specially the atheists?

It’s part of his mercy to hide himself and his will. If and when you choose to repent and take on your divine purpose, then you will pay the costs required to connect with the spirit of truth which has been sent to you.

 

[dybmh]

Speaking of the one God, Jesus said:

Matthew 22:29 Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 31 But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

This one is only OK, not great. It doesn't talk about the father. And he still sets up a distinction: "have you not read what God said *to you*". Not "to us".

Luke 6:35-36 – “But love your enemies, do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return. Your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High; for he is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.”

This one is a little better. Thank you. But it's still "your father" not "our father". His father is different.

John 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, in whom you have put your hope. 46 If you had believed Moses, you would believe Me, because he wrote about Me. 47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how will you believe what I say?”

Sure, I debated with myself whether I should bring this up. Moses wrote about him in Deuteronomy 13. The one who sent him told him "You were written about in scripture by Moses." That's true! And jesus repeats it ( "he only says what the one who sent him tells him to say?" ) Moses wrote about a false prophet, whom would be granted spiritual powers and prophecy as a test to see whom would be loyal to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

So Jesus says that God is the Father of those to whom He was speaking.

Well.... he spoke about God, and he spoke about their father, but as far as I know, never once includes himself as one of them, and never once tells us the name of the one who sent him.

Jesus believed Moses and in the books of Moses it says.

Sure. I don't think Jesus intended to go astray. But he was still promoting another god whom we, the Jews, do not know. He admitted that in John 8. "His father" is not "our father". We do not know "his father". That's a false prophet. Could be a well intended false prophet, but still, he's not the Jewish messiah. He can be your messiah. And maybe it works for you and other non-Jews.

Exodus 4:22 Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the LORD, Israel is my firstborn son, 23 and I say to you, “Let my son go that he may serve me.”

Let me ask you a question. In John 8, Jesus is asked a simple question. Where is your father? Why doesn't he answer this question? It seems like a simple question? Here, I'll ask you. Brian, where is your father? or even Brian, where is The Father? Both are relatively easy questions to answer. Why didn't Jesus answer it? Why did he instead, dodge the question?

 

[Brian2]

This one is only OK, not great. It doesn't talk about the father. And he still sets up a distinction: "have you not read what God said *to you*". Not "to us".

I had not even noticed what you are calling a distinction. But if He is making a distinction He is making a distinction even though it might be just His teaching style.
Nevertheless it shows that the God of Jesus is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob even if it does not talk about any father there.

This one is a little better. Thank you. But it's still "your father" not "our father". His father is different.

No, His Father is not different, it is just that the Father is His Father in a different way to the way He is the Father of others.
John 20:17 “Do not cling to Me,” Jesus said, “for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go and tell My brothers, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.’”

Sure, I debated with myself whether I should bring this up. Moses wrote about him in Deuteronomy 13. The one who sent him told him "You were written about in scripture by Moses." That's true! And jesus repeats it ( "he only says what the one who sent him tells him to say?" ) Moses wrote about a false prophet, whom would be granted spiritual powers and prophecy as a test to see whom would be loyal to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

The people Jesus was speaking to already believed Jesus to be a false prophet and Jesus was saying that they were mistaken because they did not believe Moses, the other things Moses had to say about Him. And there are many prophecies of the Messiah in the Pentateuch.

Well.... he spoke about God, and he spoke about their father, but as far as I know, never once includes himself as one of them, and never once tells us the name of the one who sent him.

The New Testament does not include the name of God, so He does not say the name of God there.
Jesus does call His Father the only true God and He was not speaking of a false God when He was speaking of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, He was speaking of the God of the Jews, of which He was one.
John 17:1 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:
“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

Sure. I don't think Jesus intended to go astray. But he was still promoting another god whom we, the Jews, do not know. He admitted that in John 8. "His father" is not "our father". We do not know "his father". That's a false prophet. Could be a well intended false prophet, but still, he's not the Jewish messiah. He can be your messiah. And maybe it works for you and other non-Jews.

Jesus taught His disciples to pray "Our Father who is in heaven, hallowed by your name, etc"

Let me ask you a question. In John 8, Jesus is asked a simple question. Where is your father? Why doesn't he answer this question? It seems like a simple question? Here, I'll ask you. Brian, where is your father? or even Brian, where is The Father? Both are relatively easy questions to answer. Why didn't Jesus answer it? Why did he instead, dodge the question?

It is clear that Jesus is speaking about His God as being the God of the Jews.
It is clear that Jesus is saying that this one true God is His Father and He is the Son of God.
This is a reason that many Jews wanted to kill Jesus, because of what they called a blasphemy.
I imagine that is really why you think Jesus was proclaiming a false God. But really He was revealing more about the Jewish God imo.
But imo in the Hebrew scriptures the Messiah is called the Son of God.

John 10:32 But Jesus responded, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone Me?” 33“ We are not stoning You for any good work,” said the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because You, who are a man, declare Yourself to be God.” 34 Jesus replied, “Is it not written in your Law: ‘I have said you are gods’?

 

[dybmh]

I had not even noticed what you are calling a distinction. But if He is making a distinction He is making a distinction even though it might be just His teaching style.
Nevertheless it shows that the God of Jesus is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob even if it does not talk about any father there.

OK. That's a fair assessement.

No, His Father is not different, it is just that the Father is His Father in a different way to the way He is the Father of others.
John 20:17 “Do not cling to Me,” Jesus said, “for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go and tell My brothers, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.’”

Excellent! That resolves the issue. I retract my previous statement. Thank you!