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Featured Why do not some understand that the Bible teaches that Jesus is God?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by calm, Jul 4, 2019.

  1. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    The oldest known Jewish work not included in the canon of Constantine’s universal church, is the Book of Enoch. This is a complex work, the known COPIES of which were written in the third (or perhaps even the late fourth) century BCE, after the return from the Babylonian Exile and the establishment of the Second Jewish Commonwealth (6th-5th centuries BCE) and before the Maccabean revolt in 172 BCE.

    The oldest COPIES of the Book of Enoch, dating from the third century BCE, were discovered among the Dead Sea Scrolls

    Among the Dead Sea Scrolls were a number of manuscripts of the Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha, including ten manuscripts of the Book of Enoch in the original Aramaic (until then COPIES were extant only in an Ethiopic translation of a Greek translation of a Semitic original), which were vital to answering many questions about its origins. Dating of the manuscripts by their script shows that certain parts of Enoch are at least as old as the third century BCE.

    I believe, and will later reveal, that there is ample evidence to support the belief that the original Books of Enoch, the latest COPIES of which were discovered among the Dead Sea scrolls, date back much earlier than the 5th century, and that the originals were taken from Egypt, the land of first born, by Moses.
     
  2. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Genesis 5: 23; Enoch was 365 and had spent his life in fellowship with God when he disappeared because God had Taken him.

    Hebrews 11: 5; "By faith Enoch was Translated (To change from one form to another) so that he should not experience death; and he was not found, because God had Translated him.

    Enoch, the most important man in the OT and the NT, and yet he has been rejected by both the Jewish church and the Roman church of Emperor Constantine.

    "The Book of the Secrets of Enoch" 22: 8; "And I fell prone and bowed down to the Lord, and the Lord with his lips said to me: "Have courage, Enoch, do not fear, arise and stand before my face into eternity."

    And the archistratiege Michael lifted me up, and led me before the Lord"s face.

    [Archistratege. Or, "the commander of the armies of the nations, named Michael."]

    Hebrew 12: 24; “You have come to Jesus, who arranged THE NEW COVENANT, and the sprinkled blood that promises much better things than does the blood of Abel.”

    And the Most-High, (who held the ransom blood of righteous Abel, which could save but one man) said to the glorious creatures that surrounded him, tempting them: "Let Enoch stand before my face into eternity," and the glorious creatures bowed down to the Lord, and said: "Let Enoch go [Or be released] according to Thy word." Enoch, was the first to be released.

    It was to the living spirit of Enoch, that the righteous spirits of his post-flood descendants were gathered in the creation of the Great and glorious simulacrum at the ends of time, which Simulacrum is the sacrifice that God has prepared for us, and is the blue-print of the new Temple of God [The glorious incorruptible bodies of Light] which are to replace his old temporary earthly tabernacle/tent [The Body of Mankind] as the ruler of the creation, of which Enoch was the chosen cornerstone, and that Simulacrum, which is born of the spirits of man, “THE SON OF MAN”, dies in the process of involution, to be the saviour of we in evolution.

    This he does by releasing all the righteous spirits that are He, from the least to the greatest, and the man Enoch from the old world that was destroyed by water was the first to be released, but not until he had learned through suffering to become perfect in his ascension and evolution, and after being within the spiritual dimension that co-exists within our three dimensional world for three days (Three thousand years) he was born again as the man Jesus.

    The Book of Jubilees 4: 30; And he (Adam) lacked seventy years of one thousand years; for one thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree of knowledge: "On the day that ye eat thereof ye shall die." For this reason he did not complete the years of this day; for he died during it.

    After Enoch in his ascension to the ends of time, had been in the valley of man for three days (Three thousand years) he was reborn on earth and revealed as the man Jesus in who were the spirits of the righteous, over whom death had no more power.

    1 Peter; 1: 20-21; He was chosen by God before the creation of the world. (Not before the world that was destroyed by water, but before this world which is destined to be destroyed by fire, after which, God creates for us a new heaven and a new earth) and he was revealed in these last days for your sake. Through him you believe in God, who raised him from death and gave him glory; and so your faith and hope are fixed on God.

    And the Lord said to Michael: "Go take Enoch from out his earthly garments, and anoint him with my sweet ointment, and put him into the garments of my glory." [Enoch, is the one who was anointed as the successor to the Godhead: CHRIST=The anointed one]

    And Michael did thus as the Lord told him. He anointed me, and dressed me, and the appearance of that ointment is more than the great light, and his ointment is like sweet dew, and its smell mild, shining like the sun’s rays, and I looked at myself, and was like one of his glorious ones.

    365, is the number of days in a calendar year. The Lamb of God who takes on the sins of the world is to be a one-year old unblemished Lamb. Enoch the ANOINTED one, who was taken to the throne of the MOST HIGH in the creation at the age of 365 is the unblemished Lamb of God.
     
    #62 The Anointed, Jul 7, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2019
  3. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Scraps of Enoch.. The only complete version is from the Ethiopian Coptic church.. and I think it was found in the 17th century AD. They think it was written by the Essenes ..

    The five books of Enoch were written between 300 BC and 150 AD.

    You may want to look at Lutheran School of Theology in Chicago. Enoch claims the angels made a deal on Mt Herman before the flood.

    See Book of Enoch by RH Charles 1912.
     
    #63 sooda, Jul 7, 2019
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  4. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    @ oldbadger
    @ the Anointed

    The five different "books" of Enoch are subdivided like this:

    1. The Book of the Watchers (Chapters 1- 36) 3rd century B.C.

    2. The Book of Parables (37- 71) 1st century B.C.

    3. The Book of Heavenly Luminaries (72-82) 3rd century B.C.

    4. The Book of Dream Visions (83- 90) 2nd century B.C.

    5. The Book of the Epistle of Enoch (91- 107) 2nd century B.C.
     
  5. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    All COPIES of the originals, from which Moses received much of his teachings, and from which Jesus and his apostles taught .
     
  6. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    No.. Sorry.. Enoch was likely written by the Essenes who had a lot of pagan ideas.

    Let me see if I can find something with sufficient source material for you to study.
     
  7. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Have you read John 1:1 in Greek? The Interlinear will reveal something that most people miss.....the word "god" in Greek is "theos". Since the Greeks had a multitude of gods, they identified each one by name. Collectively, they were just called "the gods". The one God of the Jews had a name but the Jews had stopped using it, therefore they had a dilemma. When they spoke about the Lord YHWH , they had no way of differentiating him from the Lord Jesus, both of whom fitted the description of a "god" in Greek (a divine mighty one).

    To make it clear who was being spoken about, they used the definite article "ho" (the) so that when YHWH was the subject, "ho" was used with "theos" (THE God)...in much the same way as we would identify a famous person with the same name as someone else. (e.g. if a guy named Brad Pitt was having lunch with a group of friends and he was introduced to a stranger, they might say "this is Brad Pitt....but not THE Brad Pitt)

    Here is the Interlinear translation of John 1:1....
    "In en the beginning archē was eimi the ho Word logos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi with pros · ho God theos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi God theos."

    You will notice that "the Word" (ho Logos) was "with "ho theos" (THE God) and the Word was "theos" (God)
    There are two with the title "God" in that verse....but only one is "THE God".

    So if the Greeks had used the divine name in John 1:1 it would have read...

    "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with YHWH and the word was a god".

    If you understand that "theos" is a description of a divine and powerful personage, then Jesus and his Father both fit that title. But only one is the "Almighty"..."THE God".

    Verse 14 says that "the Word became flesh"...NOT that "YHWH became flesh". God never needed to become a human to save mankind. He sent his son to do that. (John 3:16) Jesus is a divine mighty one, but he is not Almighty God and never was.

    Turn to John 1:18...

    "No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him." (NASB)

    If no one has seen God at any time, how many thousands of people saw Jesus?

    If Jesus is begotten, then he is a product of his begetter...his Father YHWH. Almighty God is not begotten but his son was, so before he was begotten, the son did not exist. He is a creation of his God.
    "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation." (Colossians 1:15)

    In Revelation 3:14 Jesus is called "the Beginning of the creation of God".
    He is the first and only direct creation of God....all other things were created through the agency of the son. (Colossians 1:15-17)

    And after his return to heaven, Jesus still addresses his Father as "my God" (Revelation 3:12)....is one part of God worshipping an equal part of himself? Why does he never call the holy spirit "my God"?

    To appreciate this passage you need to quote the whole thing...

    "Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." (Philippians 2:5-11)

    So Jesus, before his human birth, existed in God's "form". What form is God? The Bible says he is "a spirit" and so are all the angels who inhabit the spirit realm. This is saying that Jesus was a spirit being before coming to be born as a human on earth....and that he "did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped". He declined to be thought of as having any equality with his Father. Something that could have been construed by the fact that he could perform miracles. The people who witnessed Paul and his companions performing miracles, thought that they were gods (Acts of the Apostles 14:8-18)

    Though Jesus was formerly a mighty spirit being, he humbled himself and voluntarily took on human form so that he could offer his life on behalf of Adam's children, whom he loved.

    As a reward for his faithful service to God and to mankind, his father bestowed on him a name that is higher than every other name, except of course his own. YHWH is "the Most High over all the Earth". (Psalm 83:18)

    "Every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord"......not to his glory, but "to the glory of God the Father."

    It is always about the Father....Jesus did not seek glory for himself on earth, but sought always to reflect his Father's glory to others.

    Jesus never needed to be God to rescue mankind.....to do so would have been like paying 100 trillion dollars for a 10,000 dollar ransom. A trillion cans of bug spray to kill one mosquito. :confused:
     
    #67 Deeje, Jul 7, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2019
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  8. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Don't bother cutting and pasting the words of your biblical ignorant scholars any more old girl.

    Crucifixion was a rite in the mysteries of many countries and especially those of Egypt, See ‘The Secret Doctrines,’ vol. 11, p. 558. The initiated adept, who had successfully passed all the trials, was tied to a cross, deep inside a Temple Crypt or cave, he was then drugged and plunged into a deep sleep in which state, in the darkness of the bowels of the earth, he remained for three days and three nights, during which time his spirit=mind, is said to have descended into Hades to communicate with the Gods.

    Moses, who was the adopted grandson of Pharaoh and who would have been afforded the best education in the country, may have been initiated into the circle of the guardians of the sacred secrets.

    Moses took the bread or the sacred teachings of Egypt [The land of First Born] and removed the yeast and gave to the children of Israel the regulations, rules and laws, that the Israelites were to keep for all time. --------- In one of the religious regulations established by Moses, Aaron would place his hand upon the head of a scapegoat, symbolically transferring the sins of Israel to the goat, which was then sent out into the wilderness to Azazel. What or who, is this Azazel?

    In the margins of the Good News Catholic Study Bible, Leviticus 16: concerning “Azazel” it is written by the Catholic authors of the GNB; [‘AZAZEL’ “The meaning of this Hebrew word is unknown: it may be the name of a desert demon.” ‘Azazel’ see Leviticus16: 8. ]

    According to the ancient writings, it was in the days of Enoch’s Father ‘Jared’, which name means ‘Descending,’ that 200 Sons of God, who Enoch describes as watchers or rather OBSERVERS, descended and introduced into the primitive culture of mankind, technology that was about equivalent to that which had been achieved three thousand years in the future.

    The Orthodox religious organisations are ignorant as to who Azazel is, because they have rejected the books of Enoch, The chosen cornerstone to who all the spirits of the righteous are gathered in the creation of God's glorious Temple of Light, which is to replace his old tabernacle/tent 'The body of mankind' as the ruler of all creation, and the stone that has been rejected by the builders of the universal church of Emperor Constantine has turned out to be the most important Stone of all.

    The books of Enoch from which Jesus and his apostles taught, were cherished by the early Christians and were held in great reverence by many of the early church fathers, including Irenaeus, Tertullian and Origen, until the early 4th century when, under the ban of dogmatic religious authorities such as Jerome, Hillary and Augustin, they finally passed out of circulation and were thought lost for millennia.

    In the Epistle of Jude, who is also called Thomas Didymus Jude [The Twin], and who was born to the house of Mary the mother of Jesus and her husband, the carpenter, See Matthew 13: 55; Jude quotes verbatim from the book of Enoch.

    Concerning Azazel, we read in the Book of Enoch the prophet, chapter 9 to chapter 10; “And Michael said to the heavenly Lord, "Seest what Azazel hath done, who hath taught all unrighteousness on earth and has revealed the eternal secrets which were preserved in heaven, which men were striving to learn. And Semjaza, to whom you have given authority to bear rule over his associates (The other 199 sons of God) and they have gone to the daughters of men upon the earth and have slept with them and revealed to them all kinds of sin etc.

    Semjaza, the leader of the observers, taught enchantments, and root cutting, among other sons of God who revealed to the women all kinds of sin, were Armaros, who taught the resolving of enchantments, Baralqual taught astrology, Kokabel the constellations, Ezeqeel the knowledge of the clouds, Araqiel the signs of the earth, Shamsiel the signs of the sun, and Sariel the course of the moon, etc.

    But Azazel taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals of the earth and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antimony, and the beautifying of the eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all colouring tintures etc.

    Tubal-Cain, was from an age of man prior to Seth the first in the line of descendants from Adam according to the genealogy recorded in Genesis 5: and Tubal-Cain had been an instructor of every artificer in brass and iron, which knowledge was stored in heaven when that age came to its end)

    The Lord, through his only begotten prophet Enoch, then passed judgment on the angels who had forsaken their own original habitat and came down and defiled themselves with the daughters of men, saying to them; “You have been in heaven, but all the mysteries had not yet been revealed to you, and you knew only worthless ones, and these in the hardness of your hearts you have made known to the women, and through these mysteries women and men work much evil on earth.”

    They were then to be bound and cast into the valley of the earth until seventy generations had passed, (Jesus was seventy generations from Enoch, see Luke 3: 23-38) but Azazel was punished separate from the others, See the Book of Enoch the Prophet 10: 4-9; “And again the Lord said to Raphael: Bind Azazel hand and foot, and cast him into the darkness: and make an opening 5) in the desert, which is in Dudael, and cast him therein. And place upon him rough and jagged rocks, and cover him with darkness, and let him abide there for ever, and cover his face that he may 6,7) not see light. And on the day of the great judgement he shall be cast into the fire. And heal the earth which the angels have corrupted, and proclaim the healing of the earth, that they may heal the plague, and that all the children of men may not perish through all the secret things that the 8) Watchers have disclosed and have taught their sons. And the whole earth has been corrupted 9) through the works that were taught by Azazel: to him ascribe all sin.

    Enoch was the 7th from Adam and Jesus was the 70th from Enoch, making Jesus the 11th of the seventh born sons from Adam. 10 completes the cycle, the 11th is the first and beginning of the new cycle.

    It was from the records of Enoch that Moses received the regulations, rules and laws, of the new religion, which included the religious regulation where Aaron would place his hand upon the head of a scapegoat, symbolically transferring the sins of Israel to the goat, which was then sent out into the wilderness to Azazel, the Son of God, 'TO WHOM ALL SIN IS ASCRIBED.'
     
  9. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    This wouldn't be my first choice, but it has a lot of sources.

    The Book of Enoch Debunked
     
  10. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Grief, you have misconstrued many of those Scriptures!
    The very second one you posted, Matthew 28:18...how do you get support for 'Jesus is God' from that?

    It quotes Jesus saying, "All authority has been given me in heaven and on earth."

    If he was God, he would've had the authority from jump 1!

    Wow...the hoops y'all go through!
     
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  11. calm

    calm 12/9/2019

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    "The most well-known of all the New World Translation perversions is John 1:1. The original Greek text reads, “the Word was God.” The NWT renders it as “the word was a god.” This is not a matter of correct translation, but of reading one's preconceived theology into the text, rather than allowing the text to speak for itself. There is no indefinite article in Greek (in English, "a" or "an"), so any use of an indefinite article in English must be added by the translator. This is grammatically acceptable, so long as it does not change the meaning of the text.

    There is a good reason why theos has no definite article in John 1:1 and why the New World Translation rendering is in error. There are three general rules we need to understand to see why.

    1. In Greek, word order does not determine word usage like it does in English. In English, a sentence is structured according to word order: Subject - Verb - Object. Thus, "Harry called the dog" is not equivalent to "the dog called Harry." But in Greek, a word's function is determined by the case ending found attached to the word's root. There are two case endings for the root theo: one is -s (theos), the other is -n (theon). The -s ending normally identifies a noun as being the subject of a sentence, while the -n ending normally identifies a noun as the direct object.

    2. When a noun functions as a predicate nominative (in English, a noun that follows a being verb such as "is"), its case ending must match the noun's case that it renames, so that the reader will know which noun it is defining. Therefore, theo must take the -s ending because it is renaming logos. Therefore, John 1:1transliterates to "kai theos en ho logos." Is theos the subject, or is logos? Both have the -s ending. The answer is found in the next rule.

    3. In cases where two nouns appear, and both take the same case ending, the author will often add the definite article to the word that is the subject in order to avoid confusion. John put the definite article on logos (“the Word”) instead of on theos. So, logos is the subject, and theos is the predicate nominative. In English, this results in John 1:1 being read as "and the Word was God" (instead of "and God was the word").

    The most revealing evidence of the Watchtower's bias is their inconsistent translation technique. Throughout the Gospel of John, the Greek word theon occurs without a definite article. The New World Translation renders none of these as “a god.” Even more inconsistent, in John 1:18, the NWT translates the same term as both "God" and "god" in the very same sentence.
    The Watchtower, therefore, has no hard textual grounds for their translation—only their own theological bias. While New World Translation defenders might succeed in showing that John 1:1 can be translated as they have done, they cannot show that it is the proper translation. Nor can they explain the fact that that the NWT does not translate the same Greek phrases elsewhere in the Gospel of John the same way. It is only the pre-conceived heretical rejection of the deity of Christ that forces the Watchtower Society to inconsistently translate the Greek text, thus allowing their error to gain some semblance of legitimacy in the minds of those ignorant of the facts."

    Source: Is the New World Translation a valid version of the Bible?


    Jesus is not once identified as an Angel. The Bible even makes a clear distinction between Jesus and the angels.
    Hebrews 1: 5-8
    For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son, today I have begotten you”? Or again, “I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son”?
    And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all Gods’s angels worship him.”
    Of the angels he says, “He makes his angels winds, and his ministers a flame of fire.”
    But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
     
  12. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    when a prophet, and yes jesus referred to himself as a prophet, messenger, speaks the words of god that doesn't make him exclusively God. god is greater than a man. the bible tells you this.

    jesus claimed to be the son of god and we know there was others that were called sons of god.


    Numbers 23:19
    God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?


    we also know that god is not a respecter of persons. he loves all his children. malachi told you so
     
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  13. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    It seems very obvious to me that the major English translations of the Bible came out of Christendom, a man made institution that translated the Bible with their own bias, long before anyone realised that they had one.

    A classic example is in the KJV in John 1:1 and John 1:18.....

    "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

    "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

    The word "theos" is used in both verses and yet in verse 18 it says "son" not "God"...why? Both are the same word in Greek.
    So if verse 18 renders the word "theos" as "son", then John 1:1 should also render it "son" making that verse say...
    "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was the Son."

    You want inconsistencies and bias in translation...there is a major one, right there.

    I don't know why people go to such lengths to make Jesus into God. Not once did Jesus ever say that he was God or even equal to his Father. He called himself "the son of God" but never did he claim to be "God". The Jews were going to stone him for blasphemy even though all he claimed to be was "the son of God".......imagine what they would have done if he'd claimed to God!? :eek:

    Jesus identified the Father as "the only true God" without including himself. (John 17:3)
    He said that the Father knew things that he didn't know, (Matthew 24:36)...that God's will could be different from his own (Matthew 26:39) How are they one God? Where will I find a trinity in the Bible?

    And why don't the Jews believe in a trinity? Jesus was Jewish, so he would never have even thought of such a thing. (Deuteronomy 6:4) But it's amazing how many trinities there are in all sorts of non-Christian religions....

    Trinities date back to Nimrod.
    [​IMG]

    Trinities are found in Egypt, Asia, Europe and Scandinavia.....they predate Christianity by centuries.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Northern hemisphere pagan trinity symbols which all predate Christianity.

    [​IMG]

    The apostles were in no doubt about who Jesus was....(Matthew 15:16)

    "For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him." (1 Corinthians 8:5-6)

    To put another God in place of the Father is a breach of the First Commandment. Ask those in Christendom whom they believe God is, and see how many answer "Jesus Christ". That is blasphemy.

    Hmmmm....and the source of your information is (from your link)...."S. Michael Houdmann....the Founder, President, and CEO of Got Questions Ministries, the parent ministry for GotQuestions.org. We rarely receive questions about S. Michael Houdmann, and that is a good thing. He does not want GotQuestions.org to be about him. He does not want people to accept or reject the answers given at GotQuestions.org because of name recognition. Rather, his hope is that people will accept or reject GotQuestions.org answers because they have read them, compared them with the Word of God, and prayed about them – and determined them to be true and biblical."

    Now I see a really interesting bit of hypocrisy in Mr Houdmann's request not to be named as the one responsible for the content of the answers given on GotQuestions.org because of name recognition? Yet apparently its OK to criticize Fredrick Franz for not putting his name or the names of other committee members who produced the NWT, using Westcott and Horts manuscripts.

    FYI, Fredrick Franz was not the only one responsible for translating the NWT even though he was well versed in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek, he traveled extensively, addressing audiences around the world, often reciting large portions of the Bible without notes. The committee who produced the translation was a group, and it was the result of much careful study of original language words and prayerful research. They did not want any name recognition either.

    A quick Google search will reveal that Mr Houdmann has as many detractors as we do.

    When asked what he least liked about contributions to his GotQuestions website, he said....

    "The Haters. There are some incredibly rude and demeaning people out there who will say nasty and hateful things about us. As much as I know such things are to be expected (Matthew 10:22; John 15:18), it still hurts sometimes."

    This quote from him is a bit ironic considering that here you are.....seemingly a hater just like the ones he criticized. If your only purpose here is to dish dirt, then be careful about glass houses.

    All of your "proof-texts" are assumptions based on interpretation that favors the trinity. There are just as many if not more verses that disprove it. Our belief that the pre-human Jesus was, and returned to being Michael the Archangel, is not a doctrine because we have no proof...all we have is deduction. It is a belief which does not matter to us one way or the other. Nothing changes......because Jesus is not God and the Bible itself says that he has a God whom he said should be given exclusive devotion. (Luke 4:5-8) When he returned to heaven the Father was still his God. How does God worship an equal part of himself? (Revelation 3:12)
     
    #73 Deeje, Jul 10, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2019
  14. calm

    calm 12/9/2019

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    the problem is you don't understand the Trinity, I'm trying to explain.
    We people are a trinity too. We people consist of a body, a soul and a spirit. And yet we are not each 3 people but only one human. It is the same with God, he consists of a body, a soul and a spirit. And yet it is not three God but only one God. The body of God is Jesus, the soul of God is the Father and the Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit. But the difference between us and God is that he can share himself and we can not. Now you ask yourself what Jesus was before he became human (body). The answer is, he did not exist and did exist anyway. Jesus as a person did not exist but his nature(God) was always there. It's like people. If somebody asks a human, how long do you exist? Then you have 2 answer possibilities. The first one is: since my birth. The second is: Since Adam and Eve. The first answer is related to the person himself, the second is related to the nature. All people are one nature, namely: human. So it is with God the Father, God the Son and God the spirit, they are one nature, namely: God. So, if you ask Jesus, how long do you exist? then he also has several answer possibilities, but there are 2 differences with Jesus, the first is, he has 3 answer possibilities, the second is, he consists of 2 beings, he is the son of a human and the son of God, he is 100% human and 100% God at the same time. So, if you ask him: How long do you exist? Then he have 3 possible answers, the first one is: Since my birth (as the person himself) the second is: Since Adam and Eve (as human), the third is: I have no beginning (as God).

    Does man have a soul and a spirit?
    Yes he has.
    The Bible mentions and differentiates spirit, soul and body.
    1 Thessalonians 5:23
    Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Hebrews 4:12
    For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

    Matthew 10:28
    And do not fear those who kill the body but can not kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

    What is the difference between body, soul and spirit?
    The body is the physical part, you can touch it and see it. If someone hits you in the stomach then you feel pain. The soul is your personality (will, conscience, mind, thoughts ...) you can not touch or see the soul and yet it feels pains like the body. The difference to the body is that one can not hurt the soul with blows but with insulting words. With the spirit, you can communicate with God.

    Is the Holy spirit a person?
    Yes it is a person.
    The Bible shows in many places that the Holy Spirit is acting, and that can only be said by one person.
    The Holy Spirit ...
    • teaches the disciples (Luke 12:12, John 14:26, 1 Corinthians 2:13)
    • leads the sons(Romans 8:14, Galatians 5:18)
    • witnesses the forgiveness of sins to Christians (Hebrews 10:15)
    • convict the world of sin, justice and judgment (John 16:8-11)
    • leads believers into the whole truth (John 16:13)


    The Scriptures not only show that the Spirit of God is acting, but are also presented as someone with whom something happens.
    The Holy Spirit can ...
    • to be blasphemed (Mark 3:29, 30)
    • be lied to (Acts 5: 3)
    • be tried, that is, put to the test (Acts 5: 9)
    • to be fought (Acts 7:51)
    • be saddened (Eph 4,30)

    ...............
     
  15. calm

    calm 12/9/2019

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    ................
    Is the holy spirit God?
    Yes he is God.
    Many of the quoted scriptures already make it clear that the mind is not just a person but also God. But because this point is so important, I would like to shed some light on it.
    First of all, the Spirit is explicitly called the Spirit of God in Holy Scripture (Gen. 1:2, Mt 3:16).
    Acts 5: 3-4 (emphasis added) is very clear: "And Peter said, Ananias, why did Satan fill your heart, that you lied to the Holy Ghost and took away the proceeds of the field? ... You have not lied to humans, but to God. "
    more:
    • omnipresent (Ps 139,7)
    • omniscient (Isa 40,13, 1 Cor 2:11)
    • Almighty (Job 26:13)
    • sovereign (Jn 3: 8, 1 Cor 12: 4-11)
    • eternal (Heb 9.14)

    Is Jesus God?

    Yes he is.
    God became man, not an angel. The archangel Michael is one of several archangels. An archangel is a commander, each commander has his own troop with his own special task. But Jesus is the "captain" of all troops. He is the Lord of all angels, because he himself is God and all angels worship him. (Hebrews 1:6)
     
  16. Marco Mara

    Marco Mara "Do What Thou Wilt"

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    Its clear that the bible is false and brings no evidence to support anything.
    https://listverse.com/2009/04/13/10-christ-like-figures-who-pre-date-jesus/
     
  17. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    In what year did the Shepherd kings depart Egypt? When was Solomon's Temple destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar's troops? When was the final destruction of the old city of Jericho? How long did Solomon's temple stand after its construction?
     
  18. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    LOL.....I was raised with the trinity.....I understand that it is completely incomprehensible. The more people try to explain it, the further they have to depart from scripture in their explanation, as you have done in your post.

    Since it was originally formulated in Roman Catholicism, perhaps this admission from the Catholic Encyclopedia might be helpful...

    “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.

    So the trinity did not even officially exist until almost 400 years after Jesus died. This means that Jesus never taught it and why the Jews never believed it. Do you really understand the trinity and why it is blasphemous?

    People are a trinity? That's something new. Where will I find in the scriptures that God needed to become a human being? Can you tell me what was accomplished in that scenario? What are the mechanics of the "ransom"? (Matthew 20:28) How does redemption work?

    In their original languages, what do the words, "body, soul and spirit" mean?

    Going back to man's creation in Eden, how did they apply to Adam?
    God formed his "body" from the elements of the earth. He then breathed "the breath (spirit) of life" into Adam's lungs and he "became" a "soul". (Genesis 2:7) He wasn't given one. "Breathing made him a "soul", just like the animals.

    It's the words "spirit" and "soul" that create confusion because of beliefs that crept into both Judaism and Christianity in the early centuries. The concept of an immortal soul was borrowed from Greek Platonism, and the definition of these words got completely skewed.

    The Hebrew word ruʹach and the Greek word pneuʹma, often translated “spirit,” have a number of meanings. All of them refer to things that are invisible to human sight and give evidence of force in motion.

    The Hebrew and Greek words are used with reference to...
    (1) the wind,
    (2) the active life-force in earthly creatures,
    (3) the impelling force that issues from a person’s figurative heart and causes him to say and do things in a certain way,
    (4) inspired expressions originating from an invisible source,
    (5) spirit persons.
    (6) God’s holy spirit.
    (Exodus 35:21; Psalm 104:29; Matthew 12:43; Luke 11:13)

    From the Greek word "pneu'ma" we get the words "pneumonia" and "pneumatic" in English. Both are related to "air, wind or breath". So not really anything to do with being a spirit or having some invisible part of you that can have an independent existence apart from the body.

    The word "soul" used for Adam in Hebrew is neʹphesh and the Greek word is psy·kheʹ.
    In contrast to the way that the term “soul” is used in many religious contexts, the Bible shows that both neʹphesh and psy·kheʹ, in connection with earthly creatures, refer to that which is material, tangible, visible, and mortal. It literally means "a breather". Both humans and animals are referred to by this word in Genesis. But nothing in the animal Kingdom is promised eternal life.

    So "body, soul and spirit" in the original languages, no not refer to a trinity of any sort that I am aware of.

    Jesus in his pre-human existence was God's 'only-begotten', 'firstborn son'. He was "with God" in the beginning, according to John 1:1....so, we have to ask..."the beginning of what?" because God had no beginning.....yet Jesus did.
    Paul called him "the firstborn of all creation." (Colossians 1:15) And Jesus told the apostle John in Revelation that that he was "the beginning of God's creation" (Revelation 3:14)
    That makes Jesus a 'creation' of his God and Father. If Jesus is "begotten" then he needed a 'begetter'. He taught us to pray to "our Father in heaven" so Jesus was addressing his Father too.....is God his own Father? How does Jesus call his Father "the only true God" but exclude himself? (John 17:3)

    Since God is immortal, trinitarians have a dilemma. If Jesus was 100% God, then he could not have died. Humans cannot kill God. And if Jesus did not really die, then the redemption price was not paid, forgiveness of sins did not take place, and we are still condemned.

    Paul was addressing the congregation collectively. The whole spirit, soul and body of the congregation was what he was asking to be kept blameless. Each individual would contribute to that outcome.

    Speaking about the power of God's word in 'dividing of soul and spirit' is about the difference between life and death, since a "soul" (person) deprived of "spirit" (breath) is dead, either physically or spiritually. Joints and their marrow, and thoughts and intentions of the heart, also go hand in hand....you can't have one without the other. It is a metaphor for the dividing power of God's word. (Matthew 10:34-39)

    You will notice that body and soul are "destroyed" in "Gehenna" which is erroneously translated as "hell" in many Bibles. Gehenna is the place of eternal death....not eternal suffering. That is a whole topic all by itself.

    No. The holy spirit is the power that emanates from God that he uses to accomplish his will. It can empower others to do extraordinary things. Again, this is another whole topic by itself.
    If the holy spirit was a person, it would have a name like God and his son do.

    In all of the scriptures that speak of Jesus at his Father's right hand, can you give me a single scripture that puts the holy spirit at his left? Can you do that?

    Not even sure what you are saying here....?

    This is how I see scripture demolish the trinity.
     
  19. Vaziri

    Vaziri Islamic Philosopher

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    John 14:28: "...the Father is greater than I."

    If Jesus is God then why does he get down on the ground and pray to God?

    Your verse sum ups do nothing to support your claim.
     
  20. calm

    calm 12/9/2019

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    I've answered you, as you can see here. I have explained everything to you, but if you still think you are right, then so be it. @Deeje
     
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