Why do Jehovah's Witnesses falsify the Bible?

[blü 2]

These were quotes that I used to undermine Trinitarians viewpoint of Christ all the time.

They indeed catch the eye.

The tricky thing about them is that how one interprets them is entirely dependent on how one views the nature of God. If a person is a Unitarian then it is obvious to them that Jesus is saying that the Father is the only true God, which excludes Jesus from being God. If one is a Trinitarian, then their view is that god split himself into three. So if he is split, and one part of him is in a human body, and it is saying that the Father is the only true God makes sense, but it doesn't exclude that the other two are also not the only true God.

Hmm. Trinitarians say the Father is one of the three persons of the Triune God; so if Jesus says the Father is the ONLY true God, τὸν μόνον ἀληθινὸν θεὸν then seems to me that Jesus can't be the true God and the Ghost can't be the true God. And besides, if Jesus is the ONLY true God in his own right, why would he need the Father to send him? And why would he take orders from him in heaven? (John 8:42 “I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.”)

The whole God worshipping himself though undermines Trinitarianism

Yes, it's plain silly.

I think that both Trinitarianism and Unitarianism is wrong though, as either side either ignores certain scriptures or use mental gymnastics to interpret these scriptures to anything other than what they explicitly say.

Really? What do the Unitarians ignore? Trinitarians are fond of

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."​

but the author of John categorically denies Jesus is God, while saying Jesus has been in heaven with God from the start (which arguably identifies Jesus with the gnostic demiurge ─ as does Paul's

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.)​

So proof texting back and forth doesn't help as it comes down to "my text vs yours".

That leaves out the other arguments against the Trinity in the NT: first, Paul says, and all four gospel writers attribute to Jesus, words that deny Jesus is God. Second, none of them ever has Jesus say, "I am God"; which if true would be the single most important thing he could possibly tell them, and left unsaid would be a huge deceit underlying his entire story. Third, although the political desire of Jesus' followers to elevate him to god status is evident earlier, the Trinity doctrine is the only mode of deifying Jesus that has ever been orthodoxy, and it didn't exist before the 4th century; so any claim that it's in the NT is anachrony and retrofitting. Fourth, the churches call the Trinity doctrine 'a mystery in the strict sense' which means that it 'can neither be known by unaided human reason apart from revelation, nor cogently demonstrated by reason after it has been revealed' ─ which is a bald confession that it's incoherent (each of the three 'persons' IS God, 100% of him, meaning 1+1+1 is said to equal 1, for a start).

each book in the bible is written by one author. Believers assume that all the books harmonize with each other. They should read each book individually to see what it says in its own context and not read into the book because another book or letter says the opposite of what the text clearly says.

Indeed. The Jesuses of Paul and of the authors of Mark, Matthew, Luke and John are all distinct from each other. Paul's and John's existed before coming to earth, and are easy to identify with the gnostic demiurge. Mark's Jesus is an ordinary Jew until JtB baptizes him and God adopts him as his son, just as he'd previously adopted David (Psalm 2:7). The Jesuses of Matthew and Luke are the genetic descendants of God ─ have God's Y-chromosome ─ but didn't pre-exist in heaven. Paul's Jesus has an earthly biography that in total will fit in two lines. The only bio of Jesus is Mark's (which can be very largely mapped unambiguously onto the Tanakh, meaning that it's composed from purported 'messianic prophecies' rather than historical data) and the authors of Matthew and Luke use it as the frame for their own views and theologies, as does, at a greater distance, the author of John.

And so on.

 

[Trailblazer]

You have to consider the Bible in context, then you will realize that Jesus is the God who came into the flesh.

You have to understand what Jesus said and then you will realize that Jesus NEVER claimed to be God in the flesh.

Did the Jews Accuse Jesus of Claiming to Be “God” or “a God”?

(To see a titled list of over fifty, two-three page posts (easily accessible) about the Bible not saying Jesus is God, click here.)

It is the Church that made these false claims that Jesus is God, because they misinterpreted the Bible. God is Spirit. God manifested Himself in the flesh, but God did not become flesh. There is a difference.

“The Christian equivalent to the Bahá'í concept of Manifestation is the concept of incarnation. The word to incarnate means 'to embody in flesh or 'to assume, or exist in, a bodily (esp. a human) form (Oxford English Dictionary). From a Bahá'í point of view, the important question regarding the subject of incarnation is, what does Jesus incarnate? Bahá'ís can certainly say that Jesus incarnated Gods attributes, in the sense that in Jesus, Gods attributes were perfectly reflected and expressed.[4] The Bahá'í scriptures, however, reject the belief that the ineffable essence of the Divinity was ever perfectly and completely contained in a single human body, because the Bahá'í scriptures emphasize the omnipresence and transcendence of the essence of God….” Jesus Christ in the Bahá'í Writings​

And besides, it doesn't do any good to show any quotes from another religion book to me. I only believe in the Bible and not in Bahai.

Well, of course I know that.

With this faith you have, you'll never understand the bible. Leave it and start believing in the Bible.

If Christians understand the Bible so well, why do so many Christians disagree on what it means?

I understand the Bible because of my religion, since Baha’u’llah and His son explained what the Bible really means. Baha’u’llah was the Representative of God among men and Abdu’l-Baha was one of His appointed interpreters

“Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted. They who are its appointed interpreters, they whose hearts are the repositories of its secrets, are, however, the only ones who can comprehend its manifold wisdom. Whoso, while reading the Sacred Scriptures, is tempted to choose therefrom whatever may suit him with which to challenge the authority of the Representative of God among men, is, indeed, as one dead, though to outward seeming he may walk and converse with his neighbors, and share with them their food and their drink.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 175-176​

 

[Trailblazer]

Jesus is not only God, but Jehovah God!!

John 1:23 quotes Isaiah 40:3 as saying John the Baptist was to prepare the way for the LORD (Jehovah). John prepared the way before Jesus so Jesus must be LORD (Jehovah).

In Isaiah 44:8 God is the only Rock. Psalm 18:31 says, “Who is the Rock except our God”? I Corinthians 10:4, identifies Jesus as the Rock. Jesus must also then be God the Rock.

Isaiah 44:24 says that God (Jehovah) is the one who has made all things. Colossians 1:16, speaking of Christ, says that “all things were created by Him and for him”. Jesus must therefore be Jehovah God.

In Jeremiah 10:10 it says “the LORD (Jehovah) is the true God”. I John 5:20 states that Jesus is the “true God”. Jesus must be the true God.

Isaiah 43:10,11 says that “I, even I, am the LORD; and there is no savior besides Me. Jesus is the Savior (Matthew 1:21, Titus 2:13; 2 Peter 1:1, etc., etc.). Jesus must be God the Savior.

Jehovah knows all things (Psalm 147:5). Jesus knows “all things.” (John 16:30). Jesus must be Jehovah.

Jehovah alone is the only one who knows the hearts of all men. (1 Kings 8:39; Jeremiah 17:9-10). Jesus knows the hearts of all men. (John 2:24-25; Rev. 2:18, 23). Jesus must be God.

Jehovah is our sanctifier. (Exodus 31:13). Jesus sanctifies us (Hebrews 10:10). Only God is the sanctifier of men. Jesus must be God.

Jehovah is our peace (Judges 6:23). Jesus is our peace (Ephesians 2:14). Jesus must be Jehovah.

Jehovah is our righteousness (Jeremiah 23:6). Jesus is our righteousness. (Romans 3:21-22; 1 Corinthians 1:30). Jesus must be Jehovah.

Jehovah is the giver of life who will not allow His people to be delivered / snatched out of His hand (Deuteronomy 32:39). Jesus is the giver of life who will not allow His people to be “snatched” out of His hand. (John 10:28). Jesus must be Jehovah.

Jehovah’s voice is “like the roar of rushing waters” (Ezekiel 43:2). Jesus’ “voice was like the sound of rushing waters” (Revelation 1:15). Jesus must be Jehovah.

Jehovah is present everywhere.(Proverbs 15:3; Jeremiah 23:24; I Kings 8:27); Jesus is omnipresent (John 1:48; Matthew 18:20; 28:20). Jesus must be Jehovah.

Jehovah’s nature does not change (Malachi 3:6). Jesus’ nature does not change. (Hebrews 13:8).

Jehovah is the only God we are to “serve”(2 Kings 17:35); Jesus (identified as the Creator in Colossians 1:16-17) is to be served (Colossians 3:24). Jesus must be Jehovah.

Jehovah the Lord is to be set apart as holy (Isaiah 8:12b-13). Jesus, as Lord, is to be set apart as holy (1 Peter 3:14b-15a).

Jehovah’s glory is not to be given to another (Isaiah 42:8). Jesus shares Jehovah’s glory (John 17:5). Jesus must be Jehovah.

God’s name is Jehovah (or Yahweh—YHWH – Isaiah 42:8). Jesus has Jehovah’s name (John 17:11; John 16:14-15). Jesus must be Jehovah.

Jehovah is the “mighty God” (Jeremiah 32:17-18; Isaiah 10:20-21). Jesus is the “mighty God”
(Isaiah 9:6) who is “Almighty” (Revelation 1:7-8).

Jehovah is “the first and the last” (Isaiah 44:6; 48:12). Jesus is the “first and the last” (Revelation 1:17-18; 22:12-13, 20). Jesus must be Jehovah.

Jehovah is the “Alpha and the Omega” (Revelation 1:8; Revelation 21:6-7). Jesus is the “Alpha and the Omega” (Revelation 22:12-13, 20). Jesus must be Jehovah.

Jehovah’s title is “the Holy One” (Isaiah 47:4). Jesus is “the Holy One” (Acts 3:14; John 6:69). Jesus must be Jehovah, the Holy One.

Jehovah is the “stumbling stone” of Israel (Isaiah 8:13-15). Jesus is the “stumbling stone” of Israel (1 Peter 2:6-8). Jesus must be Jehovah.

Jehovah is the great Judge who gives life to whom he wishes and who renders to each man “according” to his “deeds” (Psalm 98:9; Deuteronomy 32:39; Jeremiah 17:9-10). Jesus is the only judge who gives life to whom he wishes and renders to each man “according” to his “deeds” (John 5:21-22; Revelation 2:18, 23). Jesus must be Jehovah.

Jehovah is the great “shepherd” who leads his people to “the spring of the water of life” (Psalm 23:1-2; Revelation 21:6-7). Jesus as the “shepherd” of His people, leads them “to springs of the water of life” (John 10:11-18; Revelation 7:17). THERE IS ONLY ONE SHEPHERD –John 10:16.

Jehovah is “Lord of Lords” (Deuteronomy 10:17). Jesus is “Lord of Lords.” (Revelation 17:14; 19:16). The Father is Lord of all (Matthew 11:25; Acts 17:24). Jesus is “Lord of all.” (Acts 10:36). THERE IS ONLY ONE LORD (Jude 4) .

Jehovah created the universe (Psalm 102:25-27). Jesus created the universe (John 1:3; Colossians 1:15-19; Hebrews 1:10-12). THERE IS ONLY ONE CREATOR. (Isaiah 44:24). Jesus must be Jehovah.

Jesus Must be Jehovah

You can use Bible verses to try to prove anything you want to try to prove, and the fact that other Christians believe differently than you do proves that there is more than one way to interpret Bible verses.

The hundred-dollar question is what makes you right and the others wrong?

 

[Trailblazer]

P.S.
You accused me of taking biblical quotes out of context and I asked you ─

So tell me why ─

John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”

John 20:17 “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”​

don't mean that Jesus acknowledges the Father as the only true god, and as the God that Jesus himself worships.​

but you must have overlooked it.

What's the answer?

Then there is this one that I like...

1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

 

[Deeje]

The hundred-dollar question is what makes you right and the others wrong?

LOL...I would call it the hundred million dollar question personally .....but 'what makes some right and others wrong'...? The truth. And judging by Jesus' encounter with those at the judgment who claim him as their "Lord" and then proceed to tell him all the things that they did "in his name"....many people are completely deluded because he point blank tells them that he "never knew" them. (Matthew 7:21-23) "Never" means "not ever", so Christ has never recognized a good proportion of those who thought that they were in good standing with him. And its not like God hasn't tried to tell them.....they just didn't want to know.

 

[Deeje]

1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

I have always liked that one because, if we needed a mediator between God and men.....if Jesus was God then why didn't we need a mediator between us and him?

 

[Trailblazer]

LOL...I would call it the hundred million dollar question personally .....but 'what makes some right and others wrong'...? The truth. And judging by Jesus' encounter with those at the judgment who claim him as their "Lord" and then proceed to tell him all the things that they did "in his name"....many people are completely deluded because he point blank tells them that he "never knew" them. (Matthew 7:21-23) "Never" means "not ever", so Christ has never recognized a good proportion of those who thought that they were in good standing with him. And its not like God hasn't tried to tell them.....they just didn't want to know.

I hear what you are saying, but try to put yourself in my shoes, a non-Christian who was never a Christian and knows very little of the Bible...

Okay, so I have all kinds of different Christians coming at me from every direction, all telling me that they alone have the right interpretation of the scriptures...

How can I know, given I have so little knowledge? I mean I cannot learn the Bible overnight, and I do not even have time to learn it at all right now.

 

[Trailblazer]

I have always like that one because, if we needed a mediator between God and men.....if Jesus was God then why didn't we need a mediator between us and him?

Logic 101 stuff.

One reason I like the JWs is because they are logical about Jesus and God.

 

[Samael_Khan]

They indeed catch the eye.
Hmm. Trinitarians say the Father is one of the three persons of the Triune God; so if Jesus says the Father is the ONLY true God, τὸν μόνον ἀληθινὸν θεὸν then seems to me that Jesus can't be the true God and the Ghost can't be the true God. And besides, if Jesus is the ONLY true God in his own right, why would he need the Father to send him? And why would he take orders from him in heaven? (John 8:42 “I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.”)
Yes, it's plain silly.
Really? What do the Unitarians ignore? Trinitarians are fond of

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."​

but the author of John categorically denies Jesus is God, while saying Jesus has been in heaven with God from the start (which arguably identifies Jesus with the gnostic demiurge ─ as does Paul's

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.)​

That leaves out the other arguments against the Trinity in the NT: first, Paul says, and all four gospel writers attribute to Jesus, words that deny Jesus is God. Second, none of them ever has Jesus say, "I am God"; which if true would be the single most important thing he could possibly tell them, and left unsaid would be a huge deceit underlying his entire story. Third, although the political desire of Jesus' followers to elevate him to god status is evident earlier, the Trinity doctrine is the only mode of deifying Jesus that has ever been orthodoxy, and it didn't exist before the 4th century; so any claim that it's in the NT is anachrony and retrofitting. Fourth, the churches call the Trinity doctrine 'a mystery in the strict sense' which means that it 'can neither be known by unaided human reason apart from revelation, nor cogently demonstrated by reason after it has been revealed' ─ which is a bald confession that it's incoherent (each of the three 'persons' IS God, 100% of him, meaning 1+1+1 is said to equal 1, for a start).
Indeed. The Jesuses of Paul and of the authors of Mark, Matthew, Luke and John are all distinct from each other. Paul's and John's existed before coming to earth, and are easy to identify with the gnostic demiurge. Mark's Jesus is an ordinary Jew until JtB baptizes him and God adopts him as his son, just as he'd previously adopted David (Psalm 2:7). The Jesuses of Matthew and Luke are the genetic descendants of God ─ have God's Y-chromosome ─ but didn't pre-exist in heaven. Paul's Jesus has an earthly biography that in total will fit in two lines. The only bio of Jesus is Mark's (which can be very largely mapped unambiguously onto the Tanakh, meaning that it's composed from purported 'messianic prophecies' rather than historical data) and the authors of Matthew and Luke use it as the frame for their own views and theologies, as does, at a greater distance, the author of John.

And so on.

Very informative.

I have asked the same questions about the Trinity since it doesn't actually make sense to me. If Jesus and the Father are creator then they are both worthy of equal worship, so why would the Son (the very title undermines the Trinity) have to worship the Father?

There are many texts that refute Trinitarianism but do not undermine some other interpretations that conclude Jesus is God. For instance, Trinitarians say that Jesus was eternal and equal to the Father. Yet nowhere does the text say he is eternal (Eternal Father cannot be used as the Son is NOT the Father and eternity can refer to immortality from a certain point) and he certainly is subject to God, so not equal (He even has to hand the Kingship back to God.

Certainly, when it comes the scriptures, it is likely that the gospels show an evolution of Christology.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Logic 101 stuff.

One reason I like the JWs is because they are logical about Jesus and God.

Depends on what viewpoint of God and Jesus being God one has. These days we follow a Greek understanding of the nature of God which is that a God has one body which cannot be split. The near east has a view of gods which is that a god can split themselves and have multiple bodies, which is logical depending on how one says God's body works. Jesus being mediator and God would work in the near eastern context.

Also consider that if God existed alone at one point, he had to make the world out of something rather than nothing, which would logically follow that god made everything in the world out of his own essence, as he was the only thing existing then. So in that sense, not only is Jesus God, but everything is God.

Consider that angels are mediators between God and man. But in many cases they are called YHWH, which is God himself. And in some cases God's voice walks in the garden of Eden and one of the three men who talk to Abraham are called YHWH and nothing else, not even an angel.

So the topic is way more complicated than what it seems. But certain views can be ruled out. I would rule out the Trinitarian view because that certainly does not make sense according to the text of the Bible.

 

[Samael_Khan]

I hear what you are saying, but try to put yourself in my shoes, a non-Christian who was never a Christian and knows very little of the Bible...

Okay, so I have all kinds of different Christians coming at me from every direction, all telling me that they alone have the right interpretation of the scriptures...

How can I know, given I have so little knowledge? I mean I cannot learn the Bible overnight, and I do not even have time to learn it at all right now.

If that is the case then don't bother with the Bible for the moment. You will only be able to get a better understanding of the Bible after multiple readings of it and researching many alternative views because I assure you that each view that I have come across have texts in the Bible that they avoid because it doesn't fit their viewpoint. Therefore they proof text which is not good.

And the Bible is a highly complicated book, which I am sure you can tell from our brief discussion on it.

 

[Samael_Khan]

I hear what you are saying, but try to put yourself in my shoes, a non-Christian who was never a Christian and knows very little of the Bible...

Okay, so I have all kinds of different Christians coming at me from every direction, all telling me that they alone have the right interpretation of the scriptures...

How can I know, given I have so little knowledge? I mean I cannot learn the Bible overnight, and I do not even have time to learn it at all right now.

Also, be careful of people who say that they have the right interpretation. It pretty much leaves them in a catch 22. If they aren't willing to budge from their reasoning even if a plausible alternative view is in front of them then they are fooling themselves. If they say they have the right interpretation, yet keep on changing their interpretations, then they are contradicting themselves. The question then is: at what point in their history is their interpretation right?

 

[Trailblazer]

So the topic is way more complicated than what it seems.

Ain't that the truth. It always gets complicated when you look at the Bible because it can mean so many different things.

But certain views can be ruled out. I would rule out the Trinitarian view because that certainly does not make sense according to the text of the Bible.

Yes, certain views can be ruled out. I rule out the Trinitarian view and the view that there are many gods.
The only view that makes sense to me is that there is only One True God and many Manifestations of God, also referred to as Messengers or Prophets.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Ain't that the truth. It always gets complicated when you look at the Bible because it can mean so many different things.

Yes, certain views can be ruled out. I rule out the Trinitarian view and the view that there are many gods.
The only view that makes sense to me is that there is only One True God and many Manifestations of God, also referred to as Messengers or Prophets.

The thing is that to understand any book, forget the Bible, even the Bahai'i Holy texts, one has to have read the book in order to understand it, and understand the limitations of what a sentence and context says. In many cases, people jump to conclusions beyond what a text says. In fact, the Bible has many open ended viewpoints in many cases, so acknowledging alternative views is a great and fun way of actually looking at it. I actually love the open endedness because it makes the bible a massive puzzle to fix.

When interpreting the Bible we should base our understanding of it on verses that have no dispute over interpretation of them.

And I STILL do not understand why many Gods existing doesn't make sense to you

 

[Trailblazer]

And I STILL do not understand why many Gods existing doesn't make sense to you

Well, the reason for that is that I have not been influenced by religions other than the Baha'i Faith, because my first and only religion was the Baha'i Faith, and I was never interested in other religions before or after that. Now, because I read and post a lot on forums, I have become interested in other religions, particularly Christianity, even though I am not looking for another religion...

Not only do I consider it illogical that we would NEED more than One God, since God is omnipotent and omniscient, there is NO question that according to the Baha'i Faith there is only One True God. I hope these passages drive my point home.

“God witnesseth that there is no God but Him, the Gracious, the Best-Beloved. All grace and bounty are His. To whomsoever He will He giveth whatsoever is His wish. He, verily, is the All-Powerful, the Almighty, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 73

“Regard thou the one true God as One Who is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. The whole universe reflecteth His glory, while He is Himself independent of, and transcendeth His creatures. This is the true meaning of Divine unity. He Who is the Eternal Truth is the one Power Who exerciseth undisputed sovereignty over the world of being, Whose image is reflected in the mirror of the entire creation. All existence is dependent upon Him, and from Him is derived the source of the sustenance of all things. This is what is meant by Divine unity; this is its fundamental principle.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 167

“Our purpose in revealing these words is to show that the one true God hath, in His all-highest and transcendent station, ever been, and will everlastingly continue to be, exalted above the praise and conception of all else but Him. His creation hath ever existed, and the Manifestations of His Divine glory and the Day Springs of eternal holiness have been sent down from time immemorial, and been commissioned to summon mankind to the one true God. That the names of some of them are forgotten and the records of their lives lost is to be attributed to the disturbances and changes that have overtaken the world.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 174

“Give a hearing ear, O people, to that which I, in truth, say unto you. The one true God, exalted be His glory, hath ever regarded, and will continue to regard, the hearts of men as His own, His exclusive possession. All else, whether pertaining to land or sea, whether riches or glory, He hath bequeathed unto the Kings and rulers of the earth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 206

“O friends! Help ye the one true God, exalted be His glory, by your goodly deeds, by such conduct and character as shall be acceptable in His sight. He that seeketh to be a helper of God in this Day, let him close his eyes to whatever he may possess, and open them to the things of God. Let him cease to occupy himself with that which profiteth him, and concern himself with that which shall exalt the all-compelling name of the Almighty.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 272

 

[Deeje]

I hear what you are saying, but try to put yourself in my shoes, a non-Christian who was never a Christian and knows very little of the Bible...

Okay, so I have all kinds of different Christians coming at me from every direction, all telling me that they alone have the right interpretation of the scriptures...

How can I know, given I have so little knowledge? I mean I cannot learn the Bible overnight, and I do not even have time to learn it at all right now.

Can I ask what your religious (or non-religious) background was before Baha'i? Is Baha'i the only religion you have ever had?

As far as Christianity is concerned I see it in quite simple terms....God chooses us as much as we choose him.

The apostle John wrote Jesus' words in John ch 6....this is an important factor in our search for God....

"44 No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him..."
"65 “This is why I have said to you, no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

If God is choosing us, then if he sees potential in a person, he will open their hearts to his truth...it will be a little like the Apostle Paul's conversion when he was struck blind and where something like scales fell from his eyes so that he could 'see'. Saul of Tarsus died that day and the Apostle Paul was anointed to begin his new life. He was chosen. All of Christ's followers are "chosen" by God to understand his truth. Jesus said "you will know the truth and the truth will set you free"....that is the overwhelming feeling you get when it happens to you. It gives you an appetite for spiritual things that is almost insatiable. Some people never realized that they were so hungry!

But I also believe that it works in reverse. If someone was once a faithful believer but has turned his/her attention to another 'truth', I believe that God will repel them.....they then join the other 'lost' ones who never quite find what they are looking for...probably because it doesn't exist.

So what happens to those whom God does not ever draw, and who have not been granted an understanding of the truth?

Paul explains that there would be much religious confusion, an apostasy from the truth with even some claiming to perform miracles and such.....but he said "the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness." (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12)

This is why people can be so certain that what they believe is the truth....even if it isn't....its a delusion of their own choosing that they are permitted to keep.

This is very confronting because it implies that if God considers us a lost cause because he sees a heart that cannot be reached with his truth, (no matter how many times they have heard it) then he will not bother to correct them or to draw them. They will still hear his message because it is being declared in all the earth, (Matthew 24:14) but they will not respond, so he allows them to believe whatever they wish.

If someone has the right condition of heart, then God will lead them to his truth...if not, then no amount of preaching will move them.

That is how I understand Christ's teachings.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Well, the reason for that is that I have not been influenced by religions other than the Baha'i Faith, because my first and only religion was the Baha'i Faith, and I was never interested in other religions before or after that. Now, because I read and post a lot on forums, I have become interested in other religions, particularly Christianity, even though I am not looking for another religion...

Not only do I consider it illogical that we would NEED more than One God, since God is omnipotent and omniscient, there is NO question that according to the Baha'i Faith there is only One True God. I hope these passages drive my point home.

“God witnesseth that there is no God but Him, the Gracious, the Best-Beloved. All grace and bounty are His. To whomsoever He will He giveth whatsoever is His wish. He, verily, is the All-Powerful, the Almighty, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 73

“Regard thou the one true God as One Who is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. The whole universe reflecteth His glory, while He is Himself independent of, and transcendeth His creatures. This is the true meaning of Divine unity. He Who is the Eternal Truth is the one Power Who exerciseth undisputed sovereignty over the world of being, Whose image is reflected in the mirror of the entire creation. All existence is dependent upon Him, and from Him is derived the source of the sustenance of all things. This is what is meant by Divine unity; this is its fundamental principle.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 167

“Our purpose in revealing these words is to show that the one true God hath, in His all-highest and transcendent station, ever been, and will everlastingly continue to be, exalted above the praise and conception of all else but Him. His creation hath ever existed, and the Manifestations of His Divine glory and the Day Springs of eternal holiness have been sent down from time immemorial, and been commissioned to summon mankind to the one true God. That the names of some of them are forgotten and the records of their lives lost is to be attributed to the disturbances and changes that have overtaken the world.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 174

“Give a hearing ear, O people, to that which I, in truth, say unto you. The one true God, exalted be His glory, hath ever regarded, and will continue to regard, the hearts of men as His own, His exclusive possession. All else, whether pertaining to land or sea, whether riches or glory, He hath bequeathed unto the Kings and rulers of the earth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 206

“O friends! Help ye the one true God, exalted be His glory, by your goodly deeds, by such conduct and character as shall be acceptable in His sight. He that seeketh to be a helper of God in this Day, let him close his eyes to whatever he may possess, and open them to the things of God. Let him cease to occupy himself with that which profiteth him, and concern himself with that which shall exalt the all-compelling name of the Almighty.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 272

I agree with you fully with the above. I do understand the One God according to your believe. So I understand the One God making sense according to the Bahai'i framework.

I am thinking more theoretically. So yes, ONLY one God is needed from our point of view. But that means bare minimum requirements. It doesn't exclude the possibility theoretically that other Gods exist.

So I am not talking about a each religions theory. I am just asking if it makes sense from a logical point of view regardless of religion.

 

[sooda]

Focusing on the pronunciation for a moment...






My sources report it is pronounced Elohim in Genesis, and Ail in Isaiah. Nothing I have indicates "AL".

But even if we disagree on precisely how the vowels are pronounced, are you proposing that the word "Aleph-Lamed" in Isaiah 45:22 is pronounced in a similar manner as "Alpeh-Lamed-Hei-Yud-Mem" in Genesis 1:1?

Here are multiple sources showing that there are different vowels for these words.

"Alpeh-Lamed" in Isaiah 45:22 ( the vowel is a Tzeireh )

Biblehub:

View attachment 30891

Sefaria:

View attachment 30892

Judaica Press:

View attachment 30894

"Aleph-Lamed-Hei-Yud-Mem" in Genesis 1:1 ( the vowel is a Chataf Segol )

Biblehub:

View attachment 30895

Sefaria:

View attachment 30896

Judaica Press:

View attachment 30897

@calm, Respectful question: Why do you think the Aleph-Lamed ( with a tzeireh ) in Isaiah 45:22 should be pronounced the same as the Alpeh-Lamed ( with a chataf segol ) in Genesis 1:1? Are all of these sources wrong that the vowels are different? Are the different vowels intended to be pronounced in the same manner?

Now you begin to see why the Ugaritic Tablets have been so helpful to scholars.

 

[sooda]

The Bible’s Many Gods | Gerald McDermott | First Things
Web Exclusivesthe-bibles-many-gods
Jan 20, 2014 · The idea that there are other “gods” who exist as real supernatural beings, albeit infinitely inferior to the only Creator and Redeemer, pervades the Bible. The Psalms fairly explode with evidence. “There is none like you among the gods, O Lord” (86:8); “For great is the Lord, and greatly ...

 

[Spartan]

You can use Bible verses to try to prove anything you want to try to prove, and the fact that other Christians believe differently than you do proves that there is more than one way to interpret Bible verses.

The hundred-dollar question is what makes you right and the others wrong?

That's a ton of scriptures you're conveniently trying to kick to the curb to satisfy your unbiblical bias. And those scriptures are in addition to all the other scriptures, titles, acts, divine abilities, etc., of Jesus that go along with them.