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Featured Why do Jehovah's Witnesses falsify the Bible?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by calm, Jul 8, 2019.

  1. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    Well, here I am again. I did not forget about you, I was just super busy, but I have a little while so I will at least try to answer one of your posts. I have several of them saved in Word documents so I would not forget. :)
    Of course Baha’u’llah knew about the importance of sacrifices, it is me who has the problem with them because I am not well-versed in the Bible so I do not know their true significance…. Also, I am an animal lover so I cannot stand the thought of killing any animal.

    Baha’u’llah wrote about sacrifices, and this is just one passage I am familiar with”

    “That which thou hast heard concerning Abraham, the Friend of the All-Merciful, is the truth, and no doubt is there about it. The Voice of God commanded Him to offer up Ishmael as a sacrifice, so that His steadfastness in the Faith of God and His detachment from all else but Him may be demonstrated unto men. The purpose of God, moreover, was to sacrifice him as a ransom for the sins and iniquities of all the peoples of the earth. This same honor, Jesus, the Son of Mary, besought the one true God, exalted be His name and glory, to confer upon Him. For the same reason was Ḥusayn offered up as a sacrifice by Muḥammad, the Apostle of God.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 75-76
    I think the cross sacrifice was necessary and even essential to Christianity because of what Baha’u’llah wrote.

    “Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.”
    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86


    But I do not believe that the resurrection was necessary and I do not believe it was a bodily resurrection. Rather, it was a resurrection of the Cause of Christ after three days, after He died and the disciples had become disheartened. I know the significance to Christians, that if Christ was not resurrected their bodies would not be able to resurrect when Jesus returns, but I think this a false belief. The Bible never meant that bodies would be raised from graves, resurrection means that souls would rise up from the body after it died and take on a spiritual body, in which case the body would come back to life again, in a new form.
    Here is a logical argument Baha’u’llah makes for the Messengers of God (Prophets) in general, not speaking about Himself, and He also makes a case for the next world (afterlife)...

    “Wert thou to ponder in thine heart the behavior of the Prophets of God thou wouldst assuredly and readily testify that there must needs be other worlds besides this world. The majority of the truly wise and learned have, throughout the ages, as it hath been recorded by the Pen of Glory in the Tablet of Wisdom, borne witness to the truth of that which the holy Writ of God hath revealed. Even the materialists have testified in their writings to the wisdom of these divinely-appointed Messengers, and have regarded the references made by the Prophets to Paradise, to hell fire, to future reward and punishment, to have been actuated by a desire to educate and uplift the souls of men. Consider, therefore, how the generality of mankind, whatever their beliefs or theories, have recognized the excellence, and admitted the superiority, of these Prophets of God. These Gems of Detachment are acclaimed by some as the embodiments of wisdom, while others believe them to be the mouthpiece of God Himself. How could such Souls have consented to surrender themselves unto their enemies if they believed all the worlds of God to have been reduced to this earthly life? Would they have willingly suffered such afflictions and torments as no man hath ever experienced or witnessed?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 157-158
    No, I have not read that but now that you mention it I will try to. Baha’u’llah wrote that the Jews were punished for a terrible sin of rejecting Jesus this turning away from the Face of God Himself. He chastised them for it.
    That is interesting. I did not know that about the early Christians, but I think they were spot on about many things that got distorted later.
    Well, I am glad you are starting to understand my thought process when it comes to God, as not many people do, but then I mostly post to nonbelievers who keep telling me “God is omnipotent so God can do anything” which really translates to “God should do what I think God should do.” Ironically, that thought process is not much different than Christians who believe that God can do anything so God should do everything for humans, which is ludicrous given God gave humans free will to do our own work.
    The Manifestations of God recreate the world when they appear, as that passage about the Son of Man above says about Jesus: “By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things.” It is not a scientific thing, it is a spiritual thing. Here it is described again:

    “One who does not know God’s Messengers, however, is like a plant growing in the shade. Although it knows not the sun, it is, nevertheless, absolutely dependent on it. The great Prophets are spirits suns, and Bahá’u’lláh is the sun of this “day” in which we live. The suns of former days have warmed and vivified the world, and had those suns not shone, the earth would not be cold and dead, but it is the sunshine of today that alone can ripen the fruits which the suns of former days have kissed into life.”
    Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 72

    Thank you for your patience in waiting for me to respond. :)

    I will try to get to your other posts in the next few days, barring any more unforeseen circumstances. My life is like that, very stressful and complicated.
     
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  2. Sandra Jayne

    Sandra Jayne Member

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    I don't believe I did 'cherry pick' I suggested a number of verses not just one.
    When Lazarus was resurrected after being dead for four days he made no mention of having gone to heaven, something one would have expected him to be rather excited about and to have at least made some mention of.
    Daniel 7:10 A stream of fire was flowing and going out from before him.a A thousand thousands kept ministering to him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him.
    Revelations 5:11 And I saw, and I heard a voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders, and the number of them was myriads of myriads* and thousands of thousands..
    There are countless numbers of angels in heaven.

    Ascended can also mean to go up.
     
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  3. Sandra Jayne

    Sandra Jayne Member

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    Sorry but I disagree with pretty much everything you claim and being agnostic I try to be objective. Much in the New Testament is for teaching and a warning for our time, I reiterate there can only be one truth.
    For example just imagine if God said "On January 20th 2022 all My people must draw a star on their door so they won't be destroyed for disobeying my law."
    Over time the truth becomes corrupted by many for various reasons so on January 20th 2022 some draw a circle on their door, others a triangle or a cross and so forth but those who believed and remained true to the one God put a star on their door.
    Whilst all these people believed in God and indeed may even have worshiped Him but nevertheless they will die because they corrupted the word of God and lost sight of the truth.
     
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  4. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    I do not see any point trying to figure out if there is a heaven by looking at various Bible verses, because Bible verses can be used to prove whatever people want to prove.

    Yes, there are angels in heaven because all humans who lived a good life and were close to God died and went to heaven. That's why there are countless numbers of angels in heaven.

    I suggest you read this book if you want to know about heaven. It is based on the scriptures.

    Heaven and Hell
     
  5. Sandra Jayne

    Sandra Jayne Member

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  6. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    If you are saying that only one religion or holy book can be the truth that is illogical. God is All-Powerful, so God can reveal a new holy book whenever he wants to, and He does. If these holy books contradicted each other that would be a problem, but that is not what we see. We see additional truth being revealed in every new age. The new holy books reiterate former spiritual truths and add to them. Since mankind and the world he lives in are continually evolving, he needs new truth revealed in every new age.
    You are right. That is exactly what happened, according to my religion. The truth from God gets corrupted by humans over time, and that is one reason God has to send a new Messenger in every new age. The other reason is because we need a new message in every new age, since people and their world change over time.

    “This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth. Their falsity hath, in some cases, been exposed when 172 the intervening veils were rent asunder. They themselves have acknowledged their failure in apprehending the meaning of any of the words of God.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 171-172
     
  7. Sandra Jayne

    Sandra Jayne Member

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    What makes you doubt? I really can't answer this question, I want to believe and maybe that concerns me, do I believe because I know there is a god or because I want it to be true?
    I ran away from a horrible home life when I was only 15yrs so have always relied on myself, maybe I find it difficult to 'let go' and rely entirely on someone else, in this case God. Nevertheless I get the sense I am being 'called' for want of a better word because it is constantly on my mind. Strangely Jehovah's Witnesses always seem to cross my path, holiday in Portugal they knocked on my door, same when I was in Cyprus and have come into contact with them a couple of times in New Zealand they are most certainly preaching about the Kingdom all over the world.:)
     
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  8. Sandra Jayne

    Sandra Jayne Member

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  9. Sandra Jayne

    Sandra Jayne Member

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    Why would an all powerful god need more than one book containing his word.
    Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 14:6
    So if one uses your argument Jesus must have been lying here.

    For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
    And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Revelation: 22:18-19
     
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  10. Sandra Jayne

    Sandra Jayne Member

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    As I said I love Ecclesiastes so I do understand the context and whilst I agree with what you say nevertheless if taken with other scriptures I think it is clear we do not 'have' a soul that drifts of to heaven when we die despite many people wanting this to be the case.
    Perhaps one needs to go back in time to find out what is true, God promised Adam and Eve eternal life on Earth so why would He have given them a soul when it is obvious it was never His intention that humankind would 'live' in heaven.
     
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  11. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    That was true for the Dispensation of Jesus, Jesus was the Only Way, because in every religious dispensation the Messenger of God who appears is the Way, and He is the Only Way in the sense that He is the Way God wants us to choose.

    The Dispensation of Jesus Christ ended when Muhammad came. Muhammad was then "the Way" to come to the Father. People can still come to the Father by way of Jesus, but Jesus is not the Only Way.

    Do you think that nobody could get to God before Jesus appeared? What about the Jews? They had Moses, and the Hindus and other religions also had other ways to God.
    That is absolutely true. Nobody should add to any holy book after it has been completed. But the Qur'an and the Writings of Baha'u'llah are not additions to the New Testament, they are new revelations from God.

    The Old Testament also says that nothing can be added,

    Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

    However, the New Testament is a separate revelation from God, so it is not an addition.
     
  12. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Jehovah is calling you, it seems! He sees something "desirable" in you (Haggai 2:7). That should give you a wonderful feeling, that you are being found by the Angels in different places! Jehovah is actually noticing you...in a good way!
    Just come to a meeting, there's no obligation!
    Don't expect to find perfect people, but do expect to learn some wonderful teachings!

    There is somebody else on here, who studied for a while, then moved way out in the country. But he prayed to Jehovah, and he said the next day, JW's were knocking at his door!

    I wish you the best, and hope I can call you, my sister, one day.
     
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  13. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    That goes for me too @Sandra Jayne. :)

    If Jehovah is "drawing" you, then he sees great potential in you. He found you in all those places.....that should be enough to convince you to give him a chance to prove himself to you. He provides the means....we provide the will. ;)
     
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  14. Desert Snake

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    The Spirit is both present via Spirit of God, and is literally related to God interacting with Believers. That is in the OT also.

    The Christian Bible already has a usage of 'gods' for Elohim, actually more than one, however in a basic literal sense. Some of these would be called 'gods of the nations', and often actually just called Angels.

    James 1:27
    'God and the Father'

    That 'translation' isn't direct at all; the kjv has a few instances of non direct translation, however the words are interchangeable, by their methodology. The translating method you are saying is legitimate is only by so if one agrees with the word change methodology. The KJV is pretty good at maintaining direct correlation, however as mentioned, isn't entirely word specific all the time.
    That being said, entirely reinventing of what a word signifies, isn't there.

    Personally, I don't really like the modern method , version, of writing LORD, and Lord, elsewhere, however the KJV does maintain methodology in that it doesn't necessarily change direct quote references where that is found, Old Testament, to New Testament.
    Matthew 22:37
    Matthew 22:42
    Matthew 22:45
     
    #414 Desert Snake, Jul 29, 2019
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  15. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    As I understand it, the ruach is a manifestation of God, not a different 'person'. In the Trinity doctrine, the Father is not Jesus or the Ghost, and Jesus is not the Ghost. (The doctrine's incoherence arises from the claim that each of them is nonetheless 100% of God and that only one God exists.)
    The evolution of Yahweh from one of many tribal gods to the only god can be traced from the Torah to Isaiah and beyond. The god of the NT is (says Paul) both the god of the covenant with the Jews and the god of everyone else, too. The triune God is not invented till around the 4th century CE.
    The TR is [παρὰ] τῷ θεῷ καὶ πατρὶ, which is 'god and father', two titles for one being, rather than than two beings. Two beings would be [παρὰ] τῷ θεῷ καὶ τῷ πατρὶ.
    Ahm, the translation I set out back in #70 is literal and direct; in line 1 is the Greek from the TR and in line 2 each English word is placed directly under the Greek word it translates. I invite you to go back and have a(nother?) look.
     
    #415 blü 2, Jul 29, 2019
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  16. Desert Snake

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    Here is a an example, of what one type of translation, differs from another.

    Theo=God, Theo=God, Theo=God
    Three different verses

    As opposed to

    Theo=God, Theo=a g-d, Theo=Zeus

    Notice how in the first example, although 'god' can mean another god, sometimes, like in the OT, examples of that, the word is the same
    Elohim=God
    Eloah or elohim, gods, Angels, gods of the nations

    Notice how without Specification, and talking about the Biblical God, it means 'the Biblical God', however with specification, such as 'Baal', or 'false god', so forth, it doesn't.
    What you seem to unaware of, is that the methodology that changes a 'god' reference, by word, to the Tetragrammaton, does not even claim to be 'direct', it maintains a theory or belief that the Tetragrammaton was actually replaced with the 'god' word, and thusly should be "changed" in the Scripture.
    I really doubt you understand the methodology of either the standard translations, or more interpretive translations, or the claimed reasoning for such.
     
  17. Desert Snake

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    Wonderful. You do realize that in context, Jesus being 'a god' makes Him the Tetragrammaton, and 'G-d', a separate God, ie not the Tetragrammaton. Of course you didn't realize that, because you keep saying that Jesus worshipped the Tetragrammaton.
    In other words, Jesus correlates to the Tetragrammaton aspect of God, the Lord who helped Joshua, so forth.

    That's why Jesus is called Lord.
     
  18. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    The Trinity doctrine did not exist when the NT was written and was not invented till the 4th century CE. I really doubt you understand the influence it has nonetheless had on the word choices of even the most careful translators.

    If you want to write 'God' in koine Greek, you write ὁ θεὸς.

    If you want to write 'a god' in koine Greek, you write θεὸς.
     
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  19. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    No, I didn't say that. Paul and Jesus said that eg

    1 Corinthians 8:6 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

    Luke 18:19 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”

    John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”​

    John 20:17 ... I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”​

    And of course as well as saying through Paul and in all four gospels that he wasn't God, Jesus never once says, I am God ─ meaning that were he indeed God then his entire ministry was one long deceit.

    Incidentally, my interest is historical, and it's of zero concern to me whether Paul or any of the gospel writers thinks Trinitarian or not. I simply point out that none of the Jesuses they portray is a Trinitarian, not least because the doctrine doesn't exist before the 4th century CE. The Jesus of Paul pre-existed in heaven and created the material world (as the Gnostic demiurge does), hence is called Lord, and the Jesus of John pre-existed in heaven 'before Abraham' and on a number of occasions points out his lack of personal power and his subordination to the Father. By contrast, the Jesus of Mark is an ordinary Jew until God adopts him at his baptism on the model of Psalm 2:7, and the Jesuses of Matthew and Luke are the son of God by the divine insemination of their mother, but none of them has pre-existed. That's simply to observe the obvious, that the NT offers five or more Christologies, not one. But none of them is Trinitarian.
     
  20. RedhorseWoman

    RedhorseWoman Active Member

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    Actually, Deeje, I think that people would be VERY interested in any sort of counter arguments you could invent to show where those statements were lies and/or twisted half truths. A couple of them, in my opinion, seemed slightly exaggerated, but overall the statements are truthful and accurate. And, of course, highly embarrassing for JWs and are things that they don't want the "world" to know.
     
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