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Why do Jehovah's Witnesses change the meaning of John 10:17-18?From the kings james one?

Brian2

Veteran Member
Sounds like you've been talking to the wrong people.

That the body of Jesus was in state in heaven is an idea that some JWs had. I don't know if was an official teaching. It is not scriptural after all. Now it seems that the teaching is that the body was disposed of in some way. But of course that is not scriptural either.
What is scriptural is:
John 2:19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”
20 They replied, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?” 21 But the temple he had spoken of was his body. 22 After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.
Matt 28:6 He is not here; He has risen, just as He said! Come, see the place where He lay.
Luke 24:39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”

I thought as much. So you do think that Jesus gave up a life, which he received... as though it is a garment.

I think that Jesus became a man and died as a man and came to life as a man with an immortal and imperishable body,,,,,,,,,,,a spiritual body.

When a person is resurrected to everlasting life, how does he get it? The Bible explains, but I want to hear you explain it.

Jesus is not just any person, He is the sinless person, the one whom death had no hold over.
Acts 2:24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.
Jesus broke the curse of death that had a hold on mankind for us and gives us His eternal life. In that way He is our Eternal Father. (Isa 9:6)
Isa 53:10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.

This is not scriptural, Brian.
(1 Corinthians 15:42-44) 42 So it is with the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised up in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised up in power. 44 It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one.
(1 Peter 3:18)

To claim that Jesus was raise with the corruptible body he died with, is to declare the scriptures to be lies.

I do not say that Jesus was raised with a corruptible body, you do not listen to what I say.
The scripture you quote (1Cor 15:42-44) tells us that the body that is sown will die, but will be resurrected also, but incorruptible. It is sown in dishonour but raised in glory. It is sown in weakness but raised in power. It is sown a physical body but raised up a spiritual body.
The same body is raised as a spiritual body, not as a spirit.
We can see what that means partially by noticing the body of Jesus after it was raised.
1Peter 3:18 does not say that Jesus was raised as a spirit.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
1 Corinthians 15 has a nice description of bodies, physical and spiritual, I hope you will read it and think about it.
"44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being;” the last Adam a life-giving spirit.…"

I have read that many times. The same body is raised up incorruptible and imperishable. It is sown in dishonour and raised in power.
It is a spiritual body, not a spirit. We can see something of what a spiritual body is and can do by looking as Jesus resurrection body in the gospels.
Adam became a living being and we inherit a natural body like his. Jesus IS a life-giving spirit. He is the Spirit that is in all Christians to make them children of God and give them eternal life. He is the man from heaven and we inherit also what He is. We are still human, with our likeness of the first Adam and we also take after the second Adam with a spiritual body, and incorruptible and imperishable one.
Notice that it does not say that the last Adam became a life giving spirit. In fact He was in heaven before coming to earth as a life giving Spirit. That is why we are given a spiritual body. And those who in JW theology inherit the earth also have this spiritual body or it would die and rot.
Notice that those who inherit the earth inherit it along with Jesus who inherits it. (Psalm 2) I guess that makes those who inherit the earth children of inheritance with Jesus.
Romans 8:17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Question -- can you explain what you think this means, 1 Corinthians 15 "44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being;” the last Adam a life-giving spirit.…: The first man Adam became a living being. Who is the last Adam, and what is he, according to the scripture?

I already answered that and pointed out that it does not say that He became a life giving spirit.
But you should read the verse 44 and others and ask why it is the same body that is raised but changed by putting on immortality and incorruption. It is a spiritual body not a spirit. It is like the one Jesus was raised in.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
You seem to be denying that some JWs said that the body of Jesus was taken to heaven where it is on display.
In the JW teaching no physical body is needed for a resurrection if the resurrection is a spiritual one for the 144000.
But of course the resurrection of Jesus was clearly a bodily resurrection in the gospels even if the body had been transformed and was a glorified and immortal and incorruptible body that ascended to heaven as the disciples watched.
If you believe only in a resurrection as a spirit for the 144000 where in the scriptures does it tell us about a bodily resurrection for the rest?
And yes 1Cor 15 says that God raised Christ from the dead. I have no problem with that.
So yes, Jesus died, we agree there with the scriptures that say so. And then he was, of course, raised from the dead, or resurrected back to life again. So do you believe that Jesus was raised "a life-giving spirit."? And that he had a "spiritual" body? Remember, he was first born a human. With a fleshly human natural body. Then he, Jesus, died and was raised from the dead. There's something else in reference to that, but let's see if you agree that he was raised from the dead as a spirit with a spiritual body. There's more, but let's see so far if you agree.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I already answered that and pointed out that it does not say that He became a life giving spirit.
But you should read the verse 44 and others and ask why it is the same body that is raised but changed by putting on immortality and incorruption. It is a spiritual body not a spirit. It is like the one Jesus was raised in.
JESUS was raised. Not just his body. (Do you believe that/) Let me put it this way -- a lifeless body was not raised. Jesus was raised.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The JWs change the meaning? Where, and from what?
Could you point out where it is different from this.

To lay down is for no one in particular.

To sacrifice is for someone else.

People have sacrificed to their gods ie to someone else.

To lay down is for righteousness...for no one in particular which just means for everybody!
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Where in 1Cor 15 does it say that resurrection is as a spirit?
It does say that the body that was sown is raised a spiritual body. So the body that is buried is raised and it is raised as a spiritual body, not as a spirit. (1Cor: 42-44)
Did you really read those scriptures?
Just a quick copy paste.

The KJV puts it this way...1 Corinthians 15:35-38
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

Did you notice...
Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
thou sowest not that body that shall be
But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body


So, what goes into the earth is what dies, and is not what is made alive, or what will be, but God gives the person life, and a new body, of which there are two kinds - spirit, or flesh. (1 Corinthians 15:39-40)
The other scriptures all agree. Psalms 104:29-30

Let's see if you admit that your statement... the body that is buried is raised and it is raised as a spiritual body, not as a spirit... is directly contrary to 1 Corinthians 15:35-38
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
I was just wondering if there was a record.
I never looked into it. In my earlier days as a JW, I read that the brothers did not take glory or honor for their work, and remained anonymous.

:D Judging by below, :D I'm not sure who is the one you are speaking to :D :D

the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead. It was "him" it was the Spirit. :D

Next thing you will be suggesting is that the Holy Spirit is just a power and not part of Godhead. :D
The 'him' there refers not to the spirit, but God. Do you disagree with that? God is a spirit (Matthew 4:24), but God is not the holy spirit. Nor is Jesus.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
The 'him' there refers not to the spirit, but God. Do you disagree with that? God is a spirit (Matthew 4:24), but God is not the holy spirit. Nor is Jesus.

That wouldn't quite be correct because it would be redundant.

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

If the Spirit means God that it is saying "But if the (Spirit) God of him (God)... no.. that doesn't fit.
Again "by his (God) Spirit (God) that dwells in you" - doesn't fit either

So, is it God that dwells in us or is it His Holy Spirit that dwells in us.

Jesus said it was the Holy Spirit that was going to live in us.

So, as you can tell, your narrative doesn't flow.

Therefore we have scripture that says the Father raised Jesus, the Holy Spirit raised Jesus and Jesus had the authority to lay it down and take it back up. :) There's that Godhead again :)
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
So yes, Jesus died, we agree there with the scriptures that say so. And then he was, of course, raised from the dead, or resurrected back to life again. So do you believe that Jesus was raised "a life-giving spirit."? And that he had a "spiritual" body? Remember, he was first born a human. With a fleshly human natural body. Then he, Jesus, died and was raised from the dead. There's something else in reference to that, but let's see if you agree that he was raised from the dead as a spirit with a spiritual body. There's more, but let's see so far if you agree.

I don't agree that He was raised as a spirit. But His spirit/soul came back to His physical body and it was raised as a spiritual body. We can see from the body that Jesus was raised with (in the gospels) that Jesus was not a spirit. Jesus said that He was not a spirit but was flesh and bone. (notice that it was not flesh and blood) The blood is the life of the body and flesh and blood is an idiom for corruption in 1Cor 15. IMO the life of the resurrection body is the spirit only and in Vines New Testament word book we can see from the uses of "spiritual" (as in spiritual body) that it does not mean "spirit". It is said to mean a body controlled by the spirit,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,that would be instead of controlled by our carnal nature, and if Jesus body is anything to go by it can do amazing things.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Did you really read those scriptures?
Just a quick copy paste.

The KJV puts it this way...1 Corinthians 15:35-38
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

Did you notice...
Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
thou sowest not that body that shall be
But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body


So, what goes into the earth is what dies, and is not what is made alive, or what will be, but God gives the person life, and a new body, of which there are two kinds - spirit, or flesh. (1 Corinthians 15:39-40)
The other scriptures all agree. Psalms 104:29-30

Let's see if you admit that your statement... the body that is buried is raised and it is raised as a spiritual body, not as a spirit... is directly contrary to 1 Corinthians 15:35-38

I have read them and parts of 1Cor 15 used to confuse me.
1Cor 15:35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?”
36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies.
37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else.
38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body.
39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another.
40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another.
41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.
42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;
43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

I go past verse 38 and see that not only does the body that is sown die but IT is raised. Same physical body (as Jesus resurrection body was) but with different qualities.
It is good to have a theology where the scriptures don't have to contradict each other for that theology to be true. I don't have to deny the obvious, that Jesus was raised with a physical body.
I don't have to deny the obvious, that Jesus said that He would raise His body back to life. (John 2:19-21).
It all goes to show that a spiritual body does not mean a spirit.
If you want to speak more on this part of 1Cor 15 or other parts I'll let you know that I will be away for a week so you may not get an answer straight away.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
You do have a wild imagination.
I think that's your wild imagination running away with you Ken. :D

If prophecy is where it is interpreted, you got the gist of it. :) Every time it says "That it might be fulfilled" - it is interpreting itself.
Well Joseph said, 'Interpretation belongs to God', and Daniel said, "there is a God in the heavens who is a Revealer of secrets".
So we do not interpret, but Jehovah reveals the secrets - he gives understanding to his people. :)

PS...

I don't have a religion :) I have a relationship!! :)
You don't have a religion Ken!!! :openmouth::dizzy:
What do you say to a young one who asks if James 1:26-27 does not apply to you?

James 1:26-27 (King James Version)
26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
I have read them and parts of 1Cor 15 used to confuse me.
1Cor 15:35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?”
36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies.
37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else.
38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body.
39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another.
40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another.
41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.
42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;
43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

I go past verse 38 and see that not only does the body that is sown die but IT is raised. Same physical body (as Jesus resurrection body was) but with different qualities.
It is good to have a theology where the scriptures don't have to contradict each other for that theology to be true. I don't have to deny the obvious, that Jesus was raised with a physical body.
I don't have to deny the obvious, that Jesus said that He would raise His body back to life. (John 2:19-21).
It all goes to show that a spiritual body does not mean a spirit.
If you want to speak more on this part of 1Cor 15 or other parts I'll let you know that I will be away for a week so you may not get an answer straight away.
When verse 38 says, 'But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body.', what is "it"?
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
That wouldn't quite be correct because it would be redundant.

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

If the Spirit means God that it is saying "But if the (Spirit) God of him (God)... no.. that doesn't fit.
Again "by his (God) Spirit (God) that dwells in you" - doesn't fit either

So, is it God that dwells in us or is it His Holy Spirit that dwells in us.

Jesus said it was the Holy Spirit that was going to live in us.

So, as you can tell, your narrative doesn't flow.

Therefore we have scripture that says the Father raised Jesus, the Holy Spirit raised Jesus and Jesus had the authority to lay it down and take it back up. :) There's that Godhead again :)
Romans 8:11 And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit, who lives in you.

The spirit of God is what dwells in his people Ken. What are you saying... that that is not true?
I'm not following you. Is it not your beliefs that are confusing this, since you believe the holy spirit is God?
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
When verse 38 says, 'But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body.', what is "it"?

. 1Cor 15:37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body.

The "it" is the seed that is sown, the body that is dead and buried. Most people are not raised up without rotting away, but Jesus was raised up without decay and so His body was transformed to a spiritual body.
It is going to be the same with those who are left till the end when Jesus returns at the resurrection of the dead.
1Cor 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

Those who have decayed away or have been minced up or burned and spread into the ocean will still be raised up in the body that God has determined for them and that will depend on whether they are to inherit eternal life or not I would say. Even those from the nations who are raised up at the end of the 1000 years for judgement will be given by God, a body suitable for their destiny. Some will probably have the same sort of body as Jesus had, a spiritual body like He had after the resurrection, and some will probably have a natural body that is not immortal or imperishable.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Romans 8:11 And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit, who lives in you.

The spirit of God is what dwells in his people Ken. What are you saying... that that is not true?
I'm not following you. Is it not your beliefs that are confusing this, since you believe the holy spirit is God?

How can the Spirit of God dwell in someone unless it is alive, a living Spirit.
There is ONE Spirit and so the Spirit of God is the Spirit of Christ and both the Father and Son come and make their home in those who love Jesus and keep His word, which is the word of the Father.
John 14:22Judas (not Iscariot) asked Him, “Lord, why are You going to reveal Yourself to us and not to the world?” 23Jesus replied, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

Jesus reveals Himself to us when His Spirit, the Spirit of God, comes to dwell in those who love Him.
As KenS said, the 3 in one God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
As a JW you should also take notice of the fact that Jesus said this happens to anyone who loves Him and keeps His word. IOWs, not just to 144000 anointed Christians.
All Christians who love Jesus and keep His word are therefore children of God and heirs along with Jesus (see Romans 8)
 
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nPeace

Veteran Member
The "it" is the seed that is sown, the body that is dead and buried.
Here is your reading.
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth the body that is dead a body as it hath pleased him, and to every body that is dead his own body.

You are happy with that... imo, ridiculous beyond any reason whatsoever, belief.
I will stick with what is a reasonable Bible teaching.

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they [the dead] come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest [the (dead) person] is not quickened, except it [the person] die:
37 And that which thou sowest , thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it [the person that has died] a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed [the person that has died] his own body.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It [the dead] is sown in corruption; it [the dead] is raised in incorruption:
43 It [the dead] is sown in dishonour; it [the dead] is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It [the dead] is sown a natural body; it [the dead] is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

The person that has died, is the dead.
So let's see if you are still not going to admit your belief is contrary to scripture.

The scriptures say, it is not the body that is sown, but it is the dead.
You say it is the dead body that is sown, and that body is given a body.
Which is correct? The scriptures, or you?

The scriptures say it is the dead that are raised up.
You say it is the body that is raised up.
Which is correct? The scriptures, or you?
 
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IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
They are rather distinguished and prominent in their appearance, also publicity. Going back to the entire question, there are those claiming to be Christian and Bible believers that in my opinion are not in harmony with what God wants. Meantime, aren't you waiting for the Messiah to come? And assuming you and some others are, as I understand it, all Jews are to be back in Israel?? The Holocaust was certainly a terrible thing. I look forward to a world of peace and true rejoicing. (Isaiah chapter 65)
There are Chabadnicks that refer to the Rebbe as "deity." These are heretics. But they are OUR beloved heretics. :) The mission of Chabad is to lovingly support Jews coming into deeper observance, and that is a very very good thing. I have often attended Chabad in my past, and find them to be a wonderful bunch. But they are a small minority of the Jewish world. You cannot judge Judaism by Chabad.

Yes we are still waiting for the messiah to come. We will know the Messiah because he will fulfill ALL the prophecies. So far, no one has managed to do that. Yes, one of the things the messiah will do is bring all the Jews back to Israel.
 
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