Why do Jehovah's Witnesses change the meaning of John 10:17-18?From the kings james one?

[IndigoChild5559]

In reference to this point, I know you don't go along with the many Jews who believe that M. Schneerson is (was) the Messiah. But if he ever does come out of his grave, by this time what do you think his body is like under the soil in the casket?

The number of chabadnicks who believe that the rebbe will resurrect are a minority among Chabad, which is a minority in Judaism. So I wouldn't say "many" Jews believe it.

 

[YoursTrue]

The number of chabadnicks who believe that the rebbe will resurrect are a minority among Chabad, which is a minority in Judaism. So I wouldn't say "many" Jews believe it.

OK, only several thousand I suppose. I didn't take a count. And many Jews do not believe in the Torah. They do not believe what the Torah says. Among those that do believe the Tanach are distinct differences of opinion of application. Kind of like those claiming to be members of other religions, too, with distinct differences among themselves. By the way, in my area there is a Mochiach mobile with the rebbe's large picture and vocal adherents.

 

[YoursTrue]

JWs do say Jesus did not get His physical body back. I have even heard that some JWs say that the body was taken and is now in state in heaven to be viewed by the 144000 I guess.
I have also heard the JW argument that Jesus gave His body (Luke 22:19) as a ransom and so did not get it back. But the Bible also says that Jesus gave His life as a ransom, and He did get that back. So not getting the body back is not consistent.
When Jesus rose, He did rise as a man, that is what resurrection of a human is, they come back to life as a human.
The evidence of His resurrection given by the angel is that "Jesus is not here, He has risen, go and see the place where His body was."
The body that Jesus got back was His physical body which had been transformed into a spiritual body, not a spirit. He could do amazing things with His spiritual body, He could appear and disappear and go through locked doors etc.
But to answer your question, I do believe that Jesus laid down His life. And I also believe that He got that life back.

The "body" was taken? It is important to understand this: 1 Corinthians 15 -- "If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is worthless, and so is your faith. 15In that case, we are also exposed as false witnesses about God. For we have testified about God that He raised Christ from the dead, but He did not raise Him if in fact the dead are not raised." Please notice verse15, that it was testified that God raised Christ from -- the dead.

 

[YoursTrue]

LOL... Now you have me wondering... simple things in a mind can be so complicated.

Could you simply it for my complicated mind?

With pleasure. So -- what was Jesus referring to? Let's see the previous verse -- I'm using the Berean Study Bible for this one so we don't get into a big argument about words right now: Here is what it says: "The reason the Father loves Me is that I lay down My life in order to take it up again. 18No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of My own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from My Father.”
So then the question: what is he saying he is laying down? (Let's start there again. )

 

[IndigoChild5559]

OK, only several thousand I suppose. I didn't take a count. And many Jews do not believe in the Torah. They do not believe what the Torah says. Among those that do believe the Tanach are distinct differences of opinion of application. Kind of like those claiming to be members of other religions, too, with distinct differences among themselves. By the way, in my area there is a Mochiach mobile with the rebbe's large picture and vocal adherents.

73% of U.S. Jews are Jews by religion, while 27% are Jews of no religion. Jews in U.S. are far less religious than Christians and Americans overall, at least by traditional measures.

Yes, we have a handful of different movements in Judaism, all united by Torah and respect for the Talmud. Compare that to the 45,000 different Christian denominations worldwide.

You seem so fixated on Chabad. I'm not sure why.

 

[nPeace]

The question is always "is it correctly translated". Do you know who was in the group that translated your version?

Ken, that's like asking me, 'Do you know whom Jesus used to declare the most important message to all the nations of the world - including kings and wise men?'
Acts of the Apostles 4:13; 1 Corinthians 1:26-31
Hope you see why your question has no relevance here Ken.

Certainly would disagree here.

Well. What more can I say.

Combo...
Revelation 1:18 NIV
Revelation 1:18 - I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I a...
18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

You open the door because you have the keys.
Not sure what's significant here. You'll need to explain.

You can add a third combination...

Romans 8:11 The Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead. If the same Holy Spirit lives in you, He will give life to your bodies in the same way.

oops... we have the Holy Spirit there too... wait a minute, was it the Father? or was it the Holy Spirit or was it that Jesus had the authority to raise himself up

@Frank Goad

Gee Ken. I say it, but you guys do a better job at showing up how lacking you are even in reading text.

All the translations say the same thing.
Romans 8:11 And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit, who lives in you.
the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead

Perhaps Grammar is not the easiest thing for non-JWs.
Maybe you guys need a good translation to help you out. They are without charge.

Romans 8:11 - If, now, the spirit of him who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive through his spirit that resides in you.

Wait. It actually says the same thing!!! Shocking!
Or, we can give you a course in the rules of Grammar.
You'll have to pay though. I mean, JWs take education very seriously... even though people think they aren't very bright.

So, right. The spirit belongs to him - the one who raised Jesus up.
It even says it in the next sentence. He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit, who lives in you.

 

[nPeace]

Are you saying that their version does not conform to the JW teaching and beliefs?

That's exactly what I am saying.

That would be strange indeed.

Why would it be strange to you?

 

[nPeace]

I'm just saying that when it does, we can't put our spin on it. If it doesn't it will take a deeper look.

I'm trying to think of a time where it doesn't, and I can't think of any, except maybe prophecy.

I wish you didn't put your spin on it, but I think you are sincere... just man... so terribly blinded. because of clinging to your religion.

Would you let go of your religion for any reason at all?

 

[nPeace]

A more important question for a JW is "why did Jesus get His life back" when He gave it for a ransom, but JWs say that is a reason that He did not get His body back.
Just a thought.

Getting his life back (not the life he gave up) is righteousness on God's part.
That needs no explanation... unless you know absolutely nothing about God.

As regards the body, it is nothing but dust.
It served its purpose, and Jesus now has immortal life, in a spirit body, that is imperishable.
Paul explains this in 1 Corinthians 15.

 

[nPeace]

Actually I don't believe JW's say Jesus did not get his body back. He was transformed, I believe. He had a body and has a body now. But then -- do you believe that Jesus laid down his life?

Actually @Brian2 probably is thinking 'getting his life back', means his life went somewhere, and then he got it back from where it went. I'm not slapping my head.
So he thinks in that same way, he ought to get his body back. Okay. I might as well.

People in false religion just cannot seem to understand clear and simple. Everything must be complicated, and confusing - a mystery - for them to understand... and still they don't understand.

Life goes out. It's not something that goes somewhere.
God is the source of life, and he is the one that gives it.

Jesus died. His life was gone. God restored him to life again, and gave him a new body - an incorruptable, immortal body.
1 Corinthians 15 explains this very precisely... and simply.

 

[nPeace]

JWs do say Jesus did not get His physical body back.

True.

I have even heard that some JWs say that the body was taken and is now in state in heaven to be viewed by the 144000 I guess.

Sounds like you've been talking to the wrong people.

I have also heard the JW argument that Jesus gave His body (Luke 22:19) as a ransom and so did not get it back. But the Bible also says that Jesus gave His life as a ransom, and He did get that back. So not getting the body back is not consistent.

I thought as much. So you do think that Jesus gave up a life, which he received... as though it is a garment.

When a person is resurrected to everlasting life, how does he get it? The Bible explains, but I want to hear you explain it.

When Jesus rose, He did rise as a man, that is what resurrection of a human is, they come back to life as a human.

The evidence of His resurrection given by the angel is that "Jesus is not here, He has risen, go and see the place where His body was."

The body that Jesus got back was His physical body which had been transformed into a spiritual body, not a spirit. He could do amazing things with His spiritual body, He could appear and disappear and go through locked doors etc.
But to answer your question, I do believe that Jesus laid down His life. And I also believe that He got that life back.

This is not scriptural, Brian.
(1 Corinthians 15:42-44) 42 So it is with the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised up in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised up in power. 44 It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one.
(1 Peter 3:18)

To claim that Jesus was raise with the corruptible body he died with, is to declare the scriptures to be lies.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The number of chabadnicks who believe that the rebbe will resurrect are a minority among Chabad, which is a minority in Judaism. So I wouldn't say "many" Jews believe it.

Wait a second! Are you telling me a person that is not Jewish and has no ability to say what Jews believe? I will have you know that 40 years ago I had a housemate while going to college that was Jewish (though we never did discuss religion). Aah, ignorance is a wonderful thing!

 

[Brian2]

I just said I do not. The gospels mix up history with myth and legend. You cannot trust what the gospels say to be true. They were written by Chrisitans decades later, who added stuff to support their theology.

The events in the gospel came before the theology.

 

[Brian2]

The "body" was taken? It is important to understand this: 1 Corinthians 15 -- "If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is worthless, and so is your faith. 15In that case, we are also exposed as false witnesses about God. For we have testified about God that He raised Christ from the dead, but He did not raise Him if in fact the dead are not raised." Please notice verse15, that it was testified that God raised Christ from -- the dead.

You seem to be denying that some JWs said that the body of Jesus was taken to heaven where it is on display.
In the JW teaching no physical body is needed for a resurrection if the resurrection is a spiritual one for the 144000.
But of course the resurrection of Jesus was clearly a bodily resurrection in the gospels even if the body had been transformed and was a glorified and immortal and incorruptible body that ascended to heaven as the disciples watched.
If you believe only in a resurrection as a spirit for the 144000 where in the scriptures does it tell us about a bodily resurrection for the rest?
And yes 1Cor 15 says that God raised Christ from the dead. I have no problem with that.

 

[Brian2]

Getting his life back (not the life he gave up) is righteousness on God's part.
That needs no explanation... unless you know absolutely nothing about God.

As regards the body, it is nothing but dust.
It served its purpose, and Jesus now has immortal life, in a spirit body, that is imperishable.
Paul explains this in 1 Corinthians 15.

Where in 1Cor 15 does it say that resurrection is as a spirit?
It does say that the body that was sown is raised a spiritual body. So the body that is buried is raised and it is raised as a spiritual body, not as a spirit. (1Cor: 42-44)
The second Adam is a life giving spirit from heaven (He is in us as a Spirit and gives us life) and at the resurrection we bear His image, so our body is a spiritual one, but that does not mean it is a spirit. (1Cor 15:44-49) All we have to do is see what the gospels tell us about the body of the resurrected Jesus to know that.
Flesh and blood is perishable and so this perishable flesh and blood body must put on immortality and clothe itself in the imperishable. (1Cor 15:50-54) But it is our physical body which puts on immortality and imperishability.
Resurrection means that the man who died returns to life,,,,,,,,,,,,gets his life back.
You seem to want Jesus to get another life back. What does that even mean?
Jesus gave His body and life as a ransom for us and got both His life and body back because death could not hold Him (Acts 2:24) because He was sinless. God did not leave Him in the realm of the dead and did not let His body see corruption, how, by raising Him up in His body which had put on immortality and imperishability.
His eternal life is enough to give us eternal life because it never runs out.
The JW idea that the ransom has to be the same as the redemption price is not scriptural, sorry. But of course I digress.

 

[Kenny]

Ken, that's like asking me, 'Do you know whom Jesus used to declare the most important message to all the nations of the world - including kings and wise men?'
Acts of the Apostles 4:13; 1 Corinthians 1:26-31
Hope you see why your question has no relevance here Ken.

I was just wondering if there was a record.

Gee Ken. I say it, but you guys do a better job at showing up how lacking you are even in reading text.

Judging by below, I'm not sure who is the one you are speaking to

All the translations say the same thing.
Romans 8:11 And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit, who lives in you.
the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead

the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead. It was "him" it was the Spirit.

Next thing you will be suggesting is that the Holy Spirit is just a power and not part of Godhead.

 

[Kenny]

I'm trying to think of a time where it doesn't, and I can't think of any, except maybe prophecy.

I wish you didn't put your spin on it, but I think you are sincere... just man... so terribly blinded. because of clinging to your religion.

Would you let go of your religion for any reason at all?

You do have a wild imagination.

If prophecy is where it is interpreted, you got the gist of it. Every time it says "That it might be fulfilled" - it is interpreting itself.

PS...

I don't have a religion I have a relationship!!

 

[YoursTrue]

JWs do say Jesus did not get His physical body back. I have even heard that some JWs say that the body was taken and is now in state in heaven to be viewed by the 144000 I guess.
I have also heard the JW argument that Jesus gave His body (Luke 22:19) as a ransom and so did not get it back. But the Bible also says that Jesus gave His life as a ransom, and He did get that back. So not getting the body back is not consistent.
When Jesus rose, He did rise as a man, that is what resurrection of a human is, they come back to life as a human.
The evidence of His resurrection given by the angel is that "Jesus is not here, He has risen, go and see the place where His body was."
The body that Jesus got back was His physical body which had been transformed into a spiritual body, not a spirit. He could do amazing things with His spiritual body, He could appear and disappear and go through locked doors etc.
But to answer your question, I do believe that Jesus laid down His life. And I also believe that He got that life back.

1 Corinthians 15 has a nice description of bodies, physical and spiritual, I hope you will read it and think about it.
"44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being;” the last Adam a life-giving spirit.…"

 

[YoursTrue]

73% of U.S. Jews are Jews by religion, while 27% are Jews of no religion. Jews in U.S. are far less religious than Christians and Americans overall, at least by traditional measures.

Yes, we have a handful of different movements in Judaism, all united by Torah and respect for the Talmud. Compare that to the 45,000 different Christian denominations worldwide.

You seem so fixated on Chabad. I'm not sure why.

They are rather distinguished and prominent in their appearance, also publicity. Going back to the entire question, there are those claiming to be Christian and Bible believers that in my opinion are not in harmony with what God wants. Meantime, aren't you waiting for the Messiah to come? And assuming you and some others are, as I understand it, all Jews are to be back in Israel?? The Holocaust was certainly a terrible thing. I look forward to a world of peace and true rejoicing. (Isaiah chapter 65)

 

[YoursTrue]

Where in 1Cor 15 does it say that resurrection is as a spirit?
It does say that the body that was sown is raised a spiritual body. So the body that is buried is raised and it is raised as a spiritual body, not as a spirit. (1Cor: 42-44)
The second Adam is a life giving spirit from heaven (He is in us as a Spirit and gives us life) and at the resurrection we bear His image, so our body is a spiritual one, but that does not mean it is a spirit. (1Cor 15:44-49) All we have to do is see what the gospels tell us about the body of the resurrected Jesus to know that.
Flesh and blood is perishable and so this perishable flesh and blood body must put on immortality and clothe itself in the imperishable. (1Cor 15:50-54) But it is our physical body which puts on immortality and imperishability.
Resurrection means that the man who died returns to life,,,,,,,,,,,,gets his life back.
You seem to want Jesus to get another life back. What does that even mean?
Jesus gave His body and life as a ransom for us and got both His life and body back because death could not hold Him (Acts 2:24) because He was sinless. God did not leave Him in the realm of the dead and did not let His body see corruption, how, by raising Him up in His body which had put on immortality and imperishability.
His eternal life is enough to give us eternal life because it never runs out.
The JW idea that the ransom has to be the same as the redemption price is not scriptural, sorry. But of course I digress.

Question -- can you explain what you think this means, 1 Corinthians 15 "44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being;” the last Adam a life-giving spirit.…: The first man Adam became a living being. Who is the last Adam, and what is he, according to the scripture?