Why do Jehovah's Witnesses change the meaning of John 10:17-18?From the kings james one?

[YoursTrue]

Very well said!!!!

thank you. But...my point is that Jesus - laid down his life. He laid down his life. That means -- ? (I'll let you take a guess at what I'm driving at...)
Example -- if I drive my car and someone sees it and likes it and makes me an offer for it -- starting from the beginning it means that I drove my car. Right? I know it sounds simple but I want to stick to the point that Jesus laid down his -- life.

 

[YoursTrue]

A more important question for a JW is "why did Jesus get His life back" when He gave it for a ransom, but JWs say that is a reason that He did not get His body back.
Just a thought.

Actually I don't believe JW's say Jesus did not get his body back. He was transformed, I believe. He had a body and has a body now. But then -- do you believe that Jesus laid down his life?

 

[YoursTrue]

In my opinion; they don't want it to say that Jesus has power to come back to life. So they make it say surrender instead of the more literal translation which is lay down my life.

I'm looking at another translation, the New Living Translation. Maybe you don't like that one either, I don't know, but here is what it says: "No one can take my life from me. I sacrifice it voluntarily. For I have the authority to lay it down when I want to and also to take it up again. For this is what my Father has commanded.”

So -- Jesus sacrificed his life. Do you believe that? Did he sacrifice his life? Let's start there, then perhaps we can go on.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

In my opinion; they don't want it to say that Jesus has power to come back to life. So they make it say surrender instead of the more literal translation which is lay down my life.

There is nothing in the verse in ANY translation that addresses the resurrection. And JW's do believe that Jesus resurrected, they only think it was a spiritual resurrection.

 

[YoursTrue]

There is nothing in the verse in ANY translation that addresses the resurrection. And JW's do believe that Jesus resurrected, they only think it was a spiritual resurrection.

Not true. HE was resurrected. I suppose some are waiting for Reb Schneerson to be resurrected?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Not true. HE was resurrected. I suppose some are waiting for Reb Schneerson to be resurrected?

The question is not whether Jesus resurrected. The verse in question has nothing to do with that topic. NOTHING

 

[74x12]

There is nothing in the verse in ANY translation that addresses the resurrection. And JW's do believe that Jesus resurrected, they only think it was a spiritual resurrection.

He says he has power to take his life back again. That is resurrection. In any case believing in a so called spiritual resurrection isn't enough as per 2nd John 1:7. According to John; you must believe Jesus came in the flesh. That would include resurrecting in the flesh. By denying this crucial point the JWs fail the test set by John.

2 John 1:7
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Jesus himself makes clear that he rose from the dead in the flesh in Luke 24:39 when he invites them to touch him in order to prove he's more than just a spirit.

So no offense to JWs but I must disagree with their doctrine on the spiritual resurrection and I've said the same for years.

 

[74x12]

I'm looking at another translation, the New Living Translation. Maybe you don't like that one either, I don't know, but here is what it says: "No one can take my life from me. I sacrifice it voluntarily. For I have the authority to lay it down when I want to and also to take it up again. For this is what my Father has commanded.”

So -- Jesus sacrificed his life. Do you believe that? Did he sacrifice his life? Let's start there, then perhaps we can go on.

Yes, but why not stick with a more literal translation for the purposes of debate? I think going by NLT or other translations which are admittedly interpretative rather than literal is the wrong idea for debates. Because interpretation can be mistaken even if well meant.

 

[YoursTrue]

The question is not whether Jesus resurrected. The verse in question has nothing to do with that topic. NOTHING

Yes it does. You just don't see the word resurrection there. There is the meaning of getting his life back, though. Perhaps you don't see that. Did he die? Did he "lay down his life"?
Not everyone believes that Jesus really existed. But it's obvious you can't take one verse and pull it out of context, because -- here's partially what it says:"The reason the Father loves me is that I lay down my life in order to take it up again. 18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.” 19Again there was division among the Jews because of Jesus’ message."
Like I say, even today Jews and some non-Jews may say maybe he never existed at all.
It's so clear that he was speaking of his future resurrection. He laid down his -- LIFE. Anyway, have a good night.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Yes it does. You just don't see the word resurrection there. There is the meaning of getting his life back, though. Perhaps you don't see that. Did he die? Did he "lay down his life"?
Not everyone believes that Jesus really existed. But it's obvious you can't take one verse and pull it out of context, because -- here's partially what it says:"The reason the Father loves me is that I lay down my life in order to take it up again. 18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.” 19Again there was division among the Jews because of Jesus’ message."
Like I say, even today Jews and some non-Jews may say maybe he never existed at all.
It's so clear that he was speaking of his future resurrection. He laid down his -- LIFE. Anyway, have a good night.

Not all Jews think that Jesus didn't exist. You'll find that there really isn't anything that all Jews agree on.

I for example am in the camp that says a historical Jesus existed, but not the Jesus of the gospels.

 

[YoursTrue]

He says he has power to take his life back again. That is resurrection. In any case believing in a so called spiritual resurrection isn't enough as per 2nd John 1:7. According to John; you must believe Jesus came in the flesh. That would include resurrecting in the flesh. By denying this crucial point the JWs fail the test set by John.

2 John 1:7
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Jesus himself makes clear that he rose from the dead in the flesh in Luke 24:39 when he invites them to touch him in order to prove he's more than just a spirit.

So no offense to JWs but I must disagree with their doctrine on the spiritual resurrection and I've said the same for years.

To clarify and reiterate, JESUS was resurrected. Angels, people, God, have bodies. When Jesus was resurrected, he had a b-o-d-y. That body could quickly disappear or move. It was his body. There are more scriptures about that, but it's late and hopefully I can show you more about that later. Really the important point in this discussion is, was Jesus raised from the dead?? I'm glad you do think he was speaking of his own resurrection, or coming back from the dead --

 

[YoursTrue]

Not all Jews think that Jesus didn't exist. You'll find that there really isn't anything that all Jews agree on.

I for example am in the camp that says a historical Jesus existed, but not the Jesus of the gospels.

If you believed that Jesus was as described in the Bible, I guess you'd believe that Jesus was the Messiah. Anyway have a good night.

 

[74x12]

To clarify and reiterate, JESUS was resurrected. Angels, people, God, have bodies. When Jesus was resurrected, he had a b-o-d-y. That body could quickly disappear or move. It was his body. There are more scriptures about that, but it's late and hopefully I can show you more about that later. Really the important point in this discussion is, was Jesus raised from the dead?? I'm glad you do think he was speaking of his own resurrection, or coming back from the dead --

So what happened to his earthly body? Explain that from JW perspective and I'll see if I agree or not.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

If you believed that Jesus was as described in the Bible, I guess you'd believe that Jesus was the Messiah. Anyway have a good night.

I just said I do not. The gospels mix up history with myth and legend. You cannot trust what the gospels say to be true. They were written by Chrisitans decades later, who added stuff to support their theology.

 

[Brian2]

Actually I don't believe JW's say Jesus did not get his body back. He was transformed, I believe. He had a body and has a body now. But then -- do you believe that Jesus laid down his life?

JWs do say Jesus did not get His physical body back. I have even heard that some JWs say that the body was taken and is now in state in heaven to be viewed by the 144000 I guess.
I have also heard the JW argument that Jesus gave His body (Luke 22:19) as a ransom and so did not get it back. But the Bible also says that Jesus gave His life as a ransom, and He did get that back. So not getting the body back is not consistent.
When Jesus rose, He did rise as a man, that is what resurrection of a human is, they come back to life as a human.
The evidence of His resurrection given by the angel is that "Jesus is not here, He has risen, go and see the place where His body was."
The body that Jesus got back was His physical body which had been transformed into a spiritual body, not a spirit. He could do amazing things with His spiritual body, He could appear and disappear and go through locked doors etc.
But to answer your question, I do believe that Jesus laid down His life. And I also believe that He got that life back.

 

[Kenny]

Ah. You mean the verse explains itself.

You cant say the Bible interprets itself. You are talking about a verse being self explanatory.

Two whole different things. But thanks for clarifying.

maybe it is just how we interpret what I said. What I said wasn't self explaining.

 

[Kenny]

thank you. But...my point is that Jesus - laid down his life. He laid down his life. That means -- ? (I'll let you take a guess at what I'm driving at...)
Example -- if I drive my car and someone sees it and likes it and makes me an offer for it -- starting from the beginning it means that I drove my car. Right? I know it sounds simple but I want to stick to the point that Jesus laid down his -- life.

LOL... Now you have me wondering... simple things in a mind can be so complicated.

Could you simply it for my complicated mind?

 

[firedragon]

maybe it is just how we interpret what I said. What I said wasn't self explaining.

Cheers.

 

[YoursTrue]

There is nothing in the verse in ANY translation that addresses the resurrection. And JW's do believe that Jesus resurrected, they only think it was a spiritual resurrection.

In reference to this point, I know you don't go along with the many Jews who believe that M. Schneerson is (was) the Messiah. But if he ever does come out of his grave, by this time what do you think his body is like under the soil in the casket?

 

[YoursTrue]

LOL... Now you have me wondering... simple things in a mind can be so complicated.

Could you simply it for my complicated mind?

Ah, thank you. I detect <smile> that you are humble. Take care and enjoy the day that God allows us to see.
P.S. There's more to it as the text shows, but since it melds into figuring out what it means, i.e., how it is to be understood, I'll wait and keep you in my prayers.