Why do I only see this in Islam?

[Epic Beard Man]

I responded to two Muslims on this thread yesterday (posts #116 and #17) in a manner that I thought was respectful and well considered. I'm yet to receive a reply, and its fine if I don't.

I agree we need to avoid prejudice and hatred in our discussions with Muslims, but it works both ways.

So were you asking me this so I can answer on behalf of Muslims? If so, then again, I cannot because I cannot speak for a community nor for a faith to which I do not belong.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

And yet you feel free to take sides, presumably just because. Because, you have to keep reminding us, you are totally not a Muslim.

Yeah, that is very impressive. In a certain way.

Have you not seen me participate in every diverse thread? Have you not seen me post in the Judaism DIR? I've spoken privately to others of different faiths and most surely if I was Muslim I'd have no shame in saying so here. My main thing is I don't like bullies. If we cannot have an intellectual discussion even if we disagree what is the damn point of complaining? Again for the millionth time I am not Muslim why would I take a hiatus from this place, come back and question Islamic theology concerning pre-determinism? Freewill is the core of Islamic thought so why would I come back after all this time to question it? I maybe drunk sometimes but not that damn confused.

 

[Lyndon]

Haven't you heard of temporal context? Citing events that happened centuries ago as whataboutery to excuse events which are happening now doesn't make any sense at all.

Th OP was citing events that happened two centuries ago

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Th OP was citing events that happened two centuries ago

In this case "two centuries" means a little over 150 years. You're citing events that happened 400 or more years ago which have no connection to the persecution of Bahais whatsoever. The persecution of Bahais is still ongoing today - particularly in Iran but across the wider Islamic world. The Inquisition is not ongoing. So therefore the OP cannot see it. It only seems to be Muslims who have a problem with Bahais existing; not Christians or Jews although the latter are often blamed (no surprises there) for Bahaism in the Islamic world.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

I responded to two Muslims on this thread yesterday (posts #116 and #17) in a manner that I thought was respectful and well considered. I'm yet to receive a reply, and its fine if I don't.

I agree we need to avoid prejudice and hatred in our discussions with Muslims, but it works both ways.

Blimey! The Bahai users of this forum are some of the most laid back posters I've ever seen. If we're now getting Bahais saying 'Yeah, respect is great but it'd be better if the respect we show Muslims were reciprocated' then there must be something wrong.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Blimey! The Bahai users of this forum are some of the most laid back posters I've ever seen. If we're now getting Bahais saying 'Yeah, respect is great but it'd be better if the respect we show Muslims were reciprocated' then there must be something wrong.

The Baha'is are laid back its true, and I consider myself easy going. We all need to draw lines in the sand sometime and the rights of my fellow Baha'is hit a raw nerve at some stage in this thread, probably when the issue was completely avoided by those who I had hoped would acknowledge it. Ce la vie...back to my chilled out self...

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

It saddens me to read those articles. But frankly two wrongs do not excuse the third..,etc
You are welcome to post articles where people abuse Christians and I will make comments about Orthodox Jewish "leaders"; who set the example, SPITTING ON CHRISTIANS.

I THINK IT IS TIME FOR THE New York Times to publish an article on this spitting. Not just the NYT but MSNBC as well. Americans are oblivious of these hideous acts.

May you choke on your spit!!

My point wasn't to excuse one by pointing out the other. My point is that one is not equivalent to the other. If you're being spit on for your faith, that's one thing. But Christians in the Islamic world regularly face problems of several magnitudes greater in severity. While we can agree both are persecution, they're not on the same level. If the only persecution you face is being spat at/on then, frankly, you're lucky in comparison to the Copts or Christians in Iraq or Syria.

 

[FearGod]

I was reading that 20,000 Baha'i were killed for being heretics. "Thus Bahá'ís are seen as apostates from Islam, and, according to some Islamists, must choose between repentance and death."[3Persecution of Bahá'ís - Wikipedia
When was the last time you heard of Christians or Pagans killing a fraction of that many people for heresy? Baha'is are peaceful and they accept the Koran as the word of God. Why kill them?

I'm trying to overcome my negative views towards Islam, but all this cutting off of heads dates back to the behavior of the prophet himself who cut off enormous amounts of Jewish, Christian, and Pagan heads. People who do such things can look to the behavior of Muhammad to justify it.

Why is martyring people for heresy something you hear about in the Muslim world so often and not in the Christian or Pagan world?

I'm sure most Muslims are good people, but this bigotry and intolerance is sickening and has to stop! I don't see any Christian nations or predominately polytheistic nations killing people by the thousands for heresy. I only see this today in Islam. Why is that?

How Jews live in Iran? why not executing all of them?

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

The Baha'is are laid back its true, and I consider myself easy going. We all need to draw lines in the sand sometime and the rights of my fellow Baha'is hit a raw nerve at some stage in this thread,

I completely agree and I empathise. It gets under my skin when my fellow Pagans are denied the same rights other religions currently enjoy. Fortunately it's not a common occurrence. Well, not in Europe, at least.

probably when the issue was completely avoided by those who I had hoped would acknowledge it.

Yeah, it's funny isn't it how people will turn a blind eye when other Abrahamic religions are being persecuted but when Muslims are being persecuted they're ready to defend their corner to the death?

To summarize my point while acknowledging your response, yes I acknowledge people use Islam as a justification for ignorance, because that has been clear for centuries, and I've seen some Muslims make things up as if it came from the Qur'an but it is their own conjuring of what they perceive as "Islamic." There are Muslims that are wrong so yes although I defend Islam, there is a healthy room of constructive criticism, but the criticism must be constructive otherwise it is just another form of hate. Unfortunately there aren't a lot of intellectual Muslims on the internet that can discuss Islam from a scholastic point of view. Unfortunately, and this is just my own personal experience, there are some Muslims that are "culturally Muslim:" as opposed to religiously Muslim (by religion I mean abide by the actual laws, laws that permit more about peace than being destructive).

So what would you consider to be "constructive criticism"? Because so far it seems like you've labelled every criticism levelled at Islam, aspects of it or the conduct of Muslims motivated by their faith as 'hate'.

Well I'm quite unimpressed by the non-intellectuals with the bashing of Islam. It is quite annoying and tiresome. I see more people here whine about Islam than I do outside the internet. I've said several times people need to get off the internet and go to a mosque and have a discussion with a Muslim Imam or someone learned. Like really every other thread about Islam from non-Muslims is really stupid. When I first came back my first thread regarding my disagreement on Islamic theology was regarding pre-determinism. These threads bashing Islam truly demonstrates the pathetic behavior some of ya'll exhibit and it shows heavily...

You know what I think? I think the reason why some of you wont ask Muslims outside the internet but come here to bash is because you guys are afraid. you're afraid to share the bigoted views you share here with the outside world. I get it, it is the same when people bash black people online nobody shares there views with the very people they demean. I just find the whole bashing annoying and unintellectual and downright stupid.

I suggest you and @LuisDantas crate a thread on why you dislike Islam and I'll go there and pick a part the idiotic claims you'll make...There I challenge you both!

My main thing is I don't like bullies. If we cannot have an intellectual discussion even if we disagree what is the damn point of complaining?

Okay, I'm going to assume you've not read any of Luis' posts because he's easily the most articulate user on here when it comes to explaining what he dislikes about Islam and why. I strongly suggest you read through his posts on a variety of threads because you'll find out that your thinly-veiled attempts to associate criticism of Islam with anti-intellectualism have missed the mark by a mile.

 

[Dawnofhope]

completely agree and I empathise. It gets under my skin when my fellow Pagans are denied the same rights other religions currently enjoy. Fortunately it's not a common occurrence. Well, not in Europe, at least.

Western Europe and Australasia where I come from are much the same. We have complete freedom to follow our faiths, pagan and Baha'i included. It is abhorent to consider in this modern day, that there should be restriction and persecution, yet that is the history of both our faiths.

Yeah, it's funny isn't it how people will turn a blind eye when other Abrahamic religions are being persecuted but when Muslims are being persecuted they're ready to defend their corner to the death?

That is true. I suppose we all have a blind spot to some degree. Sometimes people just don't want to see.

 

[james dixon]

If the only persecution you face is being spat at/on then, frankly, you're lucky in comparison to the Copts or Christians in Iraq or Syria.

We invaded Iraq & Syria. We bombed their homes and cities killing men, women and children for no apparent reason. If the table was turned and they invaded us you know what that outcome would be.

Our approach to the Middle East is all wrong. What we offer them is death and destruction; not a helping hand.

as I see it -

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Bahai users of this forum are some of the most laid back posters I've ever seen

You haven't interacted too much with them, have you?

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

You haven't interacted too much with them, have you?

Admittedly not, no.

 

[shunyadragon]

You haven't interacted too much with them, have you?

I most definitely am not a laid back Baha'i, though I avoid insulting and personally attacking others. The reality is like all religions personality and approach to dialogue is very diverse,

 

[shunyadragon]

I was reading that 20,000 Baha'i were killed for being heretics. "Thus Bahá'ís are seen as apostates from Islam, and, according to some Islamists, must choose between repentance and death."[3Persecution of Bahá'ís - Wikipedia
When was the last time you heard of Christians or Pagans killing a fraction of that many people for heresy? Baha'is are peaceful and they accept the Koran as the word of God. Why kill them?

I'm trying to overcome my negative views towards Islam, but all this cutting off of heads dates back to the behavior of the prophet himself who cut off enormous amounts of Jewish, Christian, and Pagan heads. People who do such things can look to the behavior of Muhammad to justify it.

Why is martyring people for heresy something you hear about in the Muslim world so often and not in the Christian or Pagan world?

I'm sure most Muslims are good people, but this bigotry and intolerance is sickening and has to stop! I don't see any Christian nations or predominately polytheistic nations killing people by the thousands for heresy. I only see this today in Islam. Why is that?

In the broader scope of history this is not a problem only in Islam. In history Judaism and Christianity have been guilty of religious cleansing, and persecution of other belief systems.

 

[LuisDantas]

How Jews live in Iran? why not executing all of them?

Pretty good questions, particularly the first one. But what I find most interesting is that you raise the questions for no particularly clear reason, and yet does not offer your answers.

Apparently there are around 9000 Jewish People in Iran, raising to perhaps 12 thousand with their spouses and children

Jewish population by country - Wikipedia

And they seem to live in a controlled, heavily censored environment that is perhaps not too remarkable for the current Iranian regime.

History of the Jews in Iran - Wikipedia

 

[whirlingmerc]

I was reading that 20,000 Baha'i were killed for being heretics. "Thus Bahá'ís are seen as apostates from Islam, and, according to some Islamists, must choose between repentance and death."[3Persecution of Bahá'ís - Wikipedia
When was the last time you heard of Christians or Pagans killing a fraction of that many people for heresy? Baha'is are peaceful and they accept the Koran as the word of God. Why kill them?

I'm trying to overcome my negative views towards Islam, but all this cutting off of heads dates back to the behavior of the prophet himself who cut off enormous amounts of Jewish, Christian, and Pagan heads. People who do such things can look to the behavior of Muhammad to justify it.

Why is martyring people for heresy something you hear about in the Muslim world so often and not in the Christian or Pagan world?

I'm sure most Muslims are good people, but this bigotry and intolerance is sickening and has to stop! I don't see any Christian nations or predominately polytheistic nations killing people by the thousands for heresy. I only see this today in Islam. Why is that?

Many stories of people dying for not towing the line during the reformation

 

[OtherSheep]

But I must know, what is the cutoff point to the point for when an occupier is no longer considered an occupier?? Like in the British Isles, do we need to kick all ethnic Englishmen out of Scotland and Wales?? Do we take everyone with a Norman or Norse-Gael surname in Ireland and ship them back to Norway where they belong?? Do we send all of those descended from Saxons back to Saxony?? Do we evict the Gaels and Welsh themselves because of the original Celtic Invasion of Britain?? How far back do we take this, man??

Umm, about as far back as language matches body type.
The same universities that pretend Celtic-Speaking means Celtic-People are teaching 2nd languages. ;-)

Your theory is also fatally flawed, btw.

An example of what you're saying... :--

"Let us grant that some large estate is still in the hands of the
successors of one who originally acquired it by force. Let us
pretend that it was wrested by a fierce Norman baron from
some good kind Saxon occupier, whose only aim was to culti-
vate his land and live at peace with all men; is this a
sufficient reason for dispossessing the present owner without
compensation? Again, suppose that some swindler, well known
to history, long ago contrived to amass a large fortune and to
invest it in Government securities; will it be contended that
his descendants of a century later should be compelled to dis-
gorge? Or to take a wider view; even admitting that English-
men appropriated the land of Ireland by conquest, wrongfully
dispossessing the then owners, is that a valid reason for ex-
propriating the successors of the conquerors, three, five, or
seven centuries later? The Welsh, we are told by these
spouters, are the "natural owners" of Wales, whatever that
may mean. But who are the Welsh? how did they come by
Wales? We shall soon find, if we are consistent, that we
English have no rightful footing in this country."
--Donisthorpe, Individualism A System of Politics.

[And within that quote are several more fatal flaws.]

Might Makes Right only works as long as you're the badest and youngest and/or richest.
After that, Karma happens. I'm guessing the Saxons are figuring this out. So are the Normans.

The Welsh according to Rhys, Davies, Dawkins, Skene, Tacitus, Solinus, etc., are the small dark people called Silurians. These are the ones who had Druidism and Bardism as their religion. Rhys had to be dragged kicking and screaming to acknowledge this fact... because the Germanics had a completely different theology.

Now, since the aboriginals of Great Britain were small dark people from Iberia, what language must the Iberians have spoken? Where are the Spanish/Basque-named mountains and rivers of Britain? In Spain, many many things are Celtic place-named. So are things in Europe. The Germanic-type is supposed by Caesar to be Celts only because they'd learned the language of the country they'd invaded. But when the invaders brought their wives who continued on teaching their children their native Germanic language, Britain began to be called England.

Even Boudet who wrote The Real Celtic Language (in French) gives you a clue you can use, when he pretends that Celtic is English--simply because the so-called big-blonde-"Celtic" actually speaks Germanic. ProtoEnglish is being set in place of Celtic for the same reason: pseudo-nationalist people choose to confuse language with ethnology.

========================

Land-Theft MULTICULTURALISM IS EVIL because it removes landmarks and ends true order.

If someone comes to your country with different religion and laws, and demands that you allow them to practice their religion according to their laws, they need to be shown the door. Their demands seek to overthrow the rights of the people to whom the your country belongs. In effect, their culture replaces yours. In the end multiculturalism becomes a lie, because your culture no longer exists, and all that remains is the alien and those who choose to become alien-acting.

Each man into his own country was the plan of God. Multiculturalism is anti-God.
The 7-Headed Red Dragon of Babylon called Tiamet is primordial Chaos. Her son is Enki who is portrayed exactly the same as Seth-Typhon of Egypt. Typhon, returned, is Typhoea the Chimera. Revelation describes this Beast, and tells what will happen to the religion/woman who rides it. The Chimera is several animals all rolled into one alien life-form.

 

[OtherSheep]

Then again, it is at least as remarkable that the Moors managed to be distinguishable from the natives after so many generations.

"XVIII. ... Of its constituent troops, the Medes, Persians, and Armenians, having sailed over into Africa, occupied the parts nearest to our sea. ... The Medes and Armenians connected themselves with the Libyans, who dwelled near the African sea; while the Getulians lay more to the sun, not far from the torrid heats; and these soon built themselves towns, as, being separated from Spain only by a strait, they proceeded to open an intercourse with its inhabitants. The name of Medes the Libyans gradually corrupted, changing it, in their barbarous tongue, into Moors."--Sallust, Jugurtha

 

[shunyadragon]

Bigotry is just as ugly when it comes from Christians. I see it all the time and it drives me nuts and leads me to resent the Scriptures they quote to condemn and judge others.

But I don't see Christians cutting off thousands of heads and stoning adulterers in our enlightened civilised age.

We've come a long way

The Spanish did the job on the Native Americans, The English did almost as bad. Nonetheless the brutality of tribal cultures against those outside the 'tribe' has been equally or greater in the Christian and Ancient Jewish history.