Why do I only see this in Islam?

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Listen, the climate here on RF especially among those who criticize Islam is very hostile and at times the arguments go beyond simple constructive criticism. Speaking about arguments, there have been arguments made here by RF'ers concerning Islam by associating fanaticism with the Holy Qur'an along with the actions of Muslims (good or bad) so in essence my comment about Muslims being synonymous with Islam, in essence it does make sense because this environment (On RF) has done that.

So what about the times when people have explained to you this isn't what they're doing and that they don't think all or most Muslims believe x, y or z? At least half the time saying people on RF are stereotyping most Muslims when they criticise Islam or parts of Islam is putting words in their mouths and creating strawmen. It's actually quite disingenuous. Take my thread on statue of Guan Yu in Indonesia being covered up under threat of destruction by a relative handful of Indonesian Muslims for instance. In that thread I correctly identified the culprits as being followers of Islam. When someone said they thought I was accusing most Muslims there of being behind this I said I wasn't because, well, that's not what the source I used said. Even after I explained this I still had people accusing me of tarring all or most Muslims with the same brush. These strawmen also do nothing to address the fact aniconism is an Islamic belief which has a tendency to progress into iconoclasm.

When I talk about not all Muslims are bad is because I take confounding variables when it comes to behavior. When Palestinians attack Jews I do not take them as doing such acts in the name of Islam, but a historical socio-political conflict that has spanned for decades.

Fair enough. Saying Islam is the only factor would be massively disingenuous. That said, can you at least admit it's a partial factor in motivating the conflict?

When I see Indonesian Muslims Chinese Buddhist, I do not take it as something that is commanded to them to do such things, I consider not only the cultural climate, but socio-political factors as well.

Okay, that's fair enough. So does this mean you admit that Islamic belief regarding 'idols' is also a factor in the situation with the Guan Yu statue?

There are a lot of ignorant and impressionable people in all faiths who are easily swayed by so called "clerics" who they themselves can convince a large swath of a population that such and such action is mandated in a Holy book. Similarly, you have non-Muslims ignorant of the Arabic language and the different times Muhammad received revelation, yet will pick up an English language copy of the Qur'an and will read a verse like "kill them wherever you find them" and would assume that verse is the summation of Islam. So my point is people need to consider various factors and not simply look at things in relation to the actions of Muslims or Islam itself for face value. If that were the case then I could judge humanity as one evil virus that needs to be wiped out if I were to judge everything I see for face value.

You make a fair point here. Though I have noticed you go out of your way to dismiss Islamic belief as a valid contributing factor (along side these others) to problems when claiming so is valid. Do you think that's fair, honest or reasonable?

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

You cannot find one incident where Muslims spit on Christians but you can find countless incidents where Orthodox Jews spit on Christians. Has the American press ever covered the above-?

We can find plenty of instances where Muslims have done much worse to Christians than spitting on them.

Instance #1
Instance #2
Instance #3
Instance #4

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Haven't you heard of the Inquisition??

Haven't you heard of temporal context? Citing events that happened centuries ago as whataboutery to excuse events which are happening now doesn't make any sense at all.

 

[columbus]

There's something else about this that isn't always obvious to modern people.
For most of history, there wasn't a clear distinction made between the aristocracy(government) , the religion, and the culture. The political powers supported the religious powers, and vice versa. So when the political powers wanted to go on a conquest to expand their wealth and power, of course the religious authorities helped by making the conquest about God and "defeat of the infidel" and that sort of thing. And when the conquest was successful, the aristocracy gave Thanks to God by making the priests rich and powerful. It was a cozy arrangement.

Today that isn't so much the norm. It obviously still happens. There's more Zionists in Texas than Israel. But it seems that of western cultures, it's Islam where that attitude is most prevalent.

Perhaps that's because Islam is inherently more conservative, the term "innovation" considered a bad thing. As a result, the primitive morality of olden days is more hardened into the cultures. This makes it more difficult to compromise with others who don't believe, to "Live and let live". Not that individuals cannot do that, mostly they do. But when individuals don't want to, there is better justification for responding in a primitive way to problems or provocations than most other big ideologies.
Tom

 

[Epic Beard Man]

So what about the times when people have explained to you this isn't what they're doing and that they don't think all or most Muslims believe x, y or z? At least half the time saying people on RF are stereotyping most Muslims when they criticise Islam or parts of Islam is putting words in their mouths and creating strawmen. It's actually quite disingenuous. Take my thread on statue of Guan Yu in Indonesia being covered up under threat of destruction by a relative handful of Indonesian Muslims for instance. In that thread I correctly identified the culprits as being followers of Islam. When someone said they thought I was accusing most Muslims there of being behind this I said I wasn't because, well, that's not what the source I used said. Even after I explained this I still had people accusing me of tarring all or most Muslims with the same brush. These strawmen also do nothing to address the fact aniconism is an Islamic belief which has a tendency to progress into iconoclasm.




Fair enough. Saying Islam is the only factor would be massively disingenuous. That said, can you at least admit it's a partial factor in motivating the conflict?




Okay, that's fair enough. So does this mean you admit that Islamic belief regarding 'idols' is also a factor in the situation with the Guan Yu statue?




You make a fair point here. Though I have noticed you go out of your way to dismiss Islamic belief as a valid contributing factor (along side these others) to problems when claiming so is valid. Do you think that's fair, honest or reasonable?

To summarize my point while acknowledging your response, yes I acknowledge people use Islam as a justification for ignorance, because that has been clear for centuries, and I've seen some Muslims make things up as if it came from the Qur'an but it is their own conjuring of what they perceive as "Islamic." There are Muslims that are wrong so yes although I defend Islam, there is a healthy room of constructive criticism, but the criticism must be constructive otherwise it is just another form of hate. Unfortunately there aren't a lot of intellectual Muslims on the internet that can discuss Islam from a scholastic point of view. Unfortunately, and this is just my own personal experience, there are some Muslims that are "culturally Muslim:" as opposed to religiously Muslim (by religion I mean abide by the actual laws, laws that permit more about peace than being destructive).

 

[LuisDantas]

Is it just me, @Epic Beard Man , or are you taking as a premise that the Qur'an is necessarily at least as defensible as the conceptions and misconceptions that people make of it?

It is no coincidence that there are so few skillful defenses for that book, despite it being sacred for over a billion people.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Is it just me, @Epic Beard Man , or are you taking as a premise that the Qur'an is necessarily at least as defensible as the conceptions and misconceptions that people make of it?

It is no coincidence that there are so few skillful defenses for that book, despite it being sacred for over a billion people.

It's just you.

 

[james dixon]

We can find plenty of instances where Muslims have done much worse to Christians than spitting on them.

It saddens me to read those articles. But frankly two wrongs do not excuse the third..,etc
You are welcome to post articles where people abuse Christians and I will make comments about Orthodox Jewish "leaders"; who set the example, SPITTING ON CHRISTIANS.

I THINK IT IS TIME FOR THE New York Times to publish an article on this spitting. Not just the NYT but MSNBC as well. Americans are oblivious of these hideous acts.

May you choke on your spit!!

 

[columbus]

It's just you.

No.
No it isn't.
Tom

 

[james dixon]

There's more Zionists in Texas than Israel.

Not for long; the clock is ticking.,.,,.,

According to a 2002 study by the Jewish Agency, "the number of Jews in the world is declining at an average of 50,000 per year." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population

 

[Epic Beard Man]

No.
No it isn't.
Tom

Okay Mr. Tom tell me why it isn't.

 

[LuisDantas]

It's just you.

Could have fooled me.

 

[columbus]

Not for long; the clock is ticking.,.,,.,

According to a 2002 study by the Jewish Agency, "the number of Jews in the world is declining at an average of 50,000 per year." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population

Zionists are not necessarily Jews.
The number of Christians who are fine with violence in the middle east because Jesus is coming back is enormous. Israel helps keep the violence going.
Hallelujah!
Tom

 

[columbus]

Okay Mr. Tom tell me why it isn't.

Because it isn't just LuisDantas who is unimpressed with the Quran and the various cultures it inspires.
Tom

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Because it isn't just LuisDantas who is unimpressed with the Quran and the various cultures it inspires.
Tom

Well I'm quite unimpressed by the non-intellectuals with the bashing of Islam. It is quite annoying and tiresome. I see more people here whine about Islam than I do outside the internet. I've said several times people need to get off the internet and go to a mosque and have a discussion with a Muslim Imam or someone learned. Like really every other thread about Islam from non-Muslims is really stupid. When I first came back my first thread regarding my disagreement on Islamic theology was regarding pre-determinism. These threads bashing Islam truly demonstrates the pathetic behavior some of ya'll exhibit and it shows heavily...

You know what I think? I think the reason why some of you wont ask Muslims outside the internet but come here to bash is because you guys are afraid. you're afraid to share the bigoted views you share here with the outside world. I get it, it is the same when people bash black people online nobody shares there views with the very people they demean. I just find the whole bashing annoying and unintellectual and downright stupid.

I suggest you and @LuisDantas crate a thread on why you dislike Islam and I'll go there and pick a part the idiotic claims you'll make...There I challenge you both!

 

[Dawnofhope]

Well I'm quite unimpressed by the non-intellectuals with the bashing of Islam. It is quite annoying and tiresome. I see more people here whine about Islam than I do outside the internet. I've said several times people need to get off the internet and go to a mosque and have a discussion with a Muslim Imam or someone learned. Like really every other thread about Islam from non-Muslims is really stupid. When I first came back my first thread regarding my disagreement on Islamic theology was regarding pre-determinism. These threads bashing Islam truly demonstrates the pathetic behavior some of ya'll exhibit and it shows heavily...

How about explaining a modern Islamic approach to human rights and helping us better understand how Islam should approach the problem with religious minorities it sees as heretical like the Baha'i Faith?

 

[Epic Beard Man]

How about explaining a modern Islamic approach to human rights and helping us better understand how Islam should approach the problem with religious minorities it sees as heretical like the Baha'i Faith?

I'm not Muslim, ask a Muslim the modern Islamic approach to human rights.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I'm not Muslim, ask a Muslim the modern Islamic approach to human rights.

I responded to two Muslims on this thread yesterday (posts #116 and #17) in a manner that I thought was respectful and well considered. I'm yet to receive a reply, and its fine if I don't.

I agree we need to avoid prejudice and hatred in our discussions with Muslims, but it works both ways.

 

[LuisDantas]

I'm not Muslim, ask a Muslim the modern Islamic approach to human rights.

And yet you feel free to take sides, presumably just because. Because, you have to keep reminding us, you are totally not a Muslim.

Yeah, that is very impressive. In a certain way.

 

[columbus]

I've said several times people need to get off the internet and go to a mosque and have a discussion with a Muslim Imam or someone learned.

I did.
Back in the very late 90's. I realized that I knew more about ancient Egypt than modern Muslims. I read books. I went to lectures. I started attending gatherings at the mosque in Bloomington Indiana.
I am not interested in Muslim bashing. But I do find that lots of RF members don't distinguish between pointed criticism and Islamophobia.
You are one of them.
I don't really have a problem with what people believe in the way of the unknowable. What I care about is what they do, which includes what they teach.

I will criticize any ideology that teaches things I believe to be wrong. That includes the PC thought police, Stormfront, LDS, Islam, etc.
Frankly, it includes LBGTQQIS****. It includes white USA Christian males complaining about being discriminated against. I try very hard to be nuanced about the problems we, as humans, face. When somebody tries to tell me that their problems are somebody else's fault I get less sympathetic. That includes Muslims.

Tom