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Why do i have to believe?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Dodds®, Jul 27, 2005.

  1. Melody

    Melody Well-Known Member

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    No, the baby will not. Those who do not hear the message of Christ are not punished for the not hearing. I don't have time to look up the verse but will if necessary.


    No...you don't come into this world with sin. You come into this world with a human (aka sinful) nature which means you *will* sin before all is said and done. If you don't believe that, then please give me the name of the one perfect person who never sinned. Oh wait....that's right...it was Jesus Christ.

    Exactly. You may not like the choice and it may seem unfair to you....but it's still your choice.
     
  2. Jensen

    Jensen Active Member

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    Who wouldn't be confused, considering that it is said that we are born sinners, although at birth we haven't done any wrong yet. As for choice, where was the choice? We are all born not of our own doing, not because we asked to be, we weren't consulted by God first, yet Christianity has us born sinners, then has God setting rules and commandments so severe that only one man ever was able to remain sinless, expects us to obey these near impossible commandments, and when we fail punishes us in a fiery hell forever? Is this a fair and judge God being that none of us asked for this before conception, if we could have been asked?

    So what we have here is the belief that God has us to be born, sets rules that are near impossible to obey and burns us in hell for being unable to obey these rules forever, unless we constantly repent and bow to his commandments...that can't be followed? What sort of God is that?:banghead3

    Jensen
     
  3. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    [PART QUOTE=The Truth].............." what if a beautiful little baby was born and he died before they take him to the church?

    will he go to hell ?

    and how anyone would born with his/her sin ?? is it fair to come to this world holding your sin?".............................

    [/PART QUOTE]

    An Excerpt from:-http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/faq_hhs.shtml#children

    When Jesus walked the Earth, He showed his love for kids and stated that people needed to be like them to be suitable for heaven. See Matthew 18:1-14* (an awesome passage). Notice what Jesus says:

    • “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.”
    • “Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven.”
    • “Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.”
    The message is clear that children have a special “connection” to God through angels. Although not directly stated, from these and other verses it is apparent that any children who die before they reach the age of accountability will go to heaven. For more information about this subject, go to our baptism page and read the section titled “Does a person’s age make a difference?”

    The above is just a small extract, you might do well to go to the site itself, and have a look at frequently aked questions.:)
     
  4. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    thanks michel :)

    Is that mean any child will not hold the original sin? regarding to Adam and Eve " you know " !!!
     
  5. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    I think you will find that in the article to which my post had a link - it also talks about people who are insane, or who never have heard of God.....:)
     
  6. MagickIsFun

    MagickIsFun Member

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    *sigh* I just thought we were here to give advice to a guy who asked a question, not discuss one religions rules and regulations. No offence and not to argue with or to anger you but, could you please take this discussion to an Abrahamic religions thread? I think we have gotten off topic...
     
  7. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    Well, study on your own, with an open mind, searching honestly, sincerely, diligently, and truly, and you may just find the answers to the questions in your head. The key is diligence and honesty, and the willingness to put a lot of time and effort into it. We do have a spiritual dimension to our lives, perhaps even pray to 'whatever' might be out there, to give you guidance. Seek and Ye shall find! PEACE!
     
  8. Fascist Christ

    Fascist Christ Active Member

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    Why do you have to believe?

    They might tell you that disblief gets you a punishment after you die. Do not worry, they are only trying to scare you so that they may convert you. If you are interested in religion, you might ask yourself, is/was there a Creator? I say yes, but I cannot come up with a single reason that he would make an afterlife. If we all die and return to the Earth, "dust to dust" as they say, then that means we are all equal in the eyes of god. Rather than punishment and rewards later, we get our punishment and rewards now. Like said before, if you have sex with your sister, you can get a deformed child. If we dont get punished until later, we will continue to make the same mistakes until we die. Instead, we have been given the ability to Reason, and with that we are able to determine that it is not advisable to have sex with your siblings.

    You do not need a book, just your own reasoning. If that leads you to determine that there is no god, then so be it. I am sure he would be pleased with your effort to understand his creation, and not insulted at all. Besides, he hasn't made it blatantly obvious, so why should he care what you believe?

    And stay cautious of those chruches and priests. They were made when people were mostly illiterate, and have a reputation for fabricating lies that we cannot verify. People today are much more educated than they were back then.
     
  9. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    Hi, you are a deist, good. I just wanted to add that Jesus, who's statements were so amazing even to today, told the sadduccees, who did not believe in a ressurection of the dead, (they were very sad, you see?) that they were greatly in error, that there is an afterlife, he warned us about it, and comforted us with it. Now, you may not respect Jesus teachings, so you may do so, but I will stick with him, I know of no other with his great wisdom and understanding, to me anyway, so I will listen to him. PEACE!
     
  10. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Not to butt-in, but we teach what we call the Age of Accountability. A time when a person becomes accountable for their Sin Nature. Until then...

    Matthew 18:3 ...VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, EXCEPT YE BE CONVERTED, AND BECOME AS LITTLE CHILDREN, YE SHALL NOT ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.
     
  11. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    And herein is a good point. Jesus didn't die on the Cross to save us from mistakes, He died to save us from sin.

    I love the story a missionary once told us when he visited our church. He said that he went on hospital visitation one night, and when he was leaving the hospital, with his Bible in his hand, he met a woman who was smoking a cigarette.

    When she saw the Bible in his hand, she asked him if he was a preacher, and he said that he was a missionary.

    She then asked him if he would pray that God would take her "nasty habit" of smoking away.

    He told her, "No, Mam, I won't do that."

    She got upset and asked him WHY, since that was his job.

    Whereupon he replied: "God can't do anything for you until you admit that it's a SIN, not a HABIT."

    Christ died for our SINS, not our HABITS.
     
  12. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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  13. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Thank you very much, Joe! Ditto for you, too!
     
  14. mr.guy

    mr.guy crapsack

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    So jesus died so i could smoke?
     
  15. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    No ... the point of the story is that since smoking is a sin ... don't call it a habit and then ask Jesus to deliver you from a nasty habit.

    Not all habits are sins, and not all sins are habits. Jesus died for sins.
     
  16. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    guys, i guess you are talking about sins again !!!

    anyone should believe first and have a faith rather than believe in sins and stuff isn't it !!!

    because i'm still seeing everybody talking about sin and Jesus and he died for us again ( for sin ) !!! i asked you all over again .. is it because of the sin of Adam and Eve and michel said read and you will understand and all over again i see it's just also about the original sin which was found around 400 AD by a man named Augustine who came up with the idea of “original sin.” This basically said that everyone inherits the sin of Adam at birth and is therefore separated from God from the beginning of their life.

    Nevertheless i found at the same website this verse which neglect the original sin:

    1. The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
    1. that means no one shall hold any sin or inherits it from anyone isn't it !!!​

      it's the as we have in the Quran:​


      (إِن تَكْفُرُوا فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ غَنِيٌّ عَنكُمْ وَلاَ يَرْضَى لِعِبَادِهِ الْكُفْرَ وَإِن تَشْكُرُوْا يَرْضَهُ لَكُمْ وَلاَ تَزِرُ وَازِرَةٌ وِزْرَ اُخْرَى ثُمَّ إِلَى رَبِّكُم مَرْجِعُكُمْ فَيُنَبِّئُكُم بِمَا كُنتُمْ تَعْمَلُونَ إِنَّهُ عَلِيمٌ بِذَاتِ الصُّدُورِ) (الزمر/7)



    please i'm talking in general and don't say start another thread :D
     
  17. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Truth, We are not sinners because we sin; we sin because we're sinners.

    In Genesis 3, Adam and Eve plunged the whole universe into sin. Everyone born after that is born with, for lack of a better term, a Sin Nature. In other words, they are born spiritually separated from God. Because the heart is DECEITFUL ABOVE ALL THINGS, AND DESPERATELY WICKED - (Jeremiah 17:9) - we sin on a daily basis. Whether we're born again or not. Jesus came and delivered us from our sins, but we'll still carry the Sin Nature until after death and we receive a new body (which won't have the Sin Nature).


    That is correct.

    This passage is from Ezekiel 18, and talks about physical death, not spiritual death.​

    Ezekiel 18:1-2 = THE WORD OF THE LORD CAME UNTO ME AGAIN, SAYING, WHAT MEAN YE, THAT YE USE THIS PROVERB CONCERNING THE LAND OF ISRAEL, SAYING, THE FATHERS HAVE EATEN SOUR GRAPES, AND THE CHILDREN'S TEETH ARE SET ON EDGE?​

    [note: the word YE is always plural]​

    What this proverb means is that the children will pay for the sins of the parents, and God nixed that idea. This is something, I believe, that Sigmund Freud taught, too; and it's not supported by Scripture.​

    I hope this clarifies!​
     
  18. Fascist Christ

    Fascist Christ Active Member

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    Another classic gimmick! See how they guilt-trip you into believing their lies! There is no such thing as "sin," I do not see any justification for such a supposition in the scripture called Creation.
     
  19. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Interesting remark. What then would you call what Hitler, Pol Pot, and Saddam Hussein committed? (Not to mention Jack the Ripper or the Boston Strangler.)
     
  20. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    Augustine's original sin idea brought forth the catholic sacrament of baptizing infants, as if that would save them from original sin. I believe we all are born with a sinful nature, inherited from Adam and Eve, and that we do sin because of it. Children (of such is made the kingdom of Heaven), have an age of accountability, when they can understand the gospel and be saved. I did so at age 8. Moved to another town, and at 14, I told the church I believed and even prayed the prayer I prayed at the age of 8, accepting Christ into my heart, and was baptized as a believer as an outward profession of my faith, symbolizing that I was dead in Christ, buried with him in baptism, and ressurected a new creation in him. I have been growing ever since, and now I am 40.
    As for sin, if you believe in the Bible, you must surely believe in sin. If you do not believe the Bible then you may have your own opinions. According to the Bible, God is Holy, Just, Pure, Good, Light, a consuming fire, and many other things. Sin cannot be in his presence, the sinner would be consumed. He gave the commandments, written in our hearts, to show us our sin, and he that breaks one point of the law is guilty of all. Example, if u ever told a lie, u r a liar, if u ever stole, u r a thief, lusted after a woman/man? an adulterer, ever used the Lord's name in vain, a blasphemer, hated a brother without cause, a murderer according to I John, so right there, this person is a lying, thieving, adultering, blaspheming, murderer at heart, and is doomed on judgement day when he stands before Almighty God.
    But that doesn't have to be now does it? Christ paid for all the sins of all the world with one sacrifice and offers salvation as a free gift, to any who will believe that he did so, and trust in his death alone to pay for their sins. So he is our cloak of righteousness, our advocate, our mediator, our saviour. He has already paid the price for all to be saved, and rose again giving us power over sin, and gave us the Holy Spirit to lead us and show us where we need to change to grow in his grace, secure in his hand. Some folks listen and work and grow more than others, and others do not, but each will have his reward, some folks saved and not much to show, others with great reward. But one day, this mortal shall put on immortality, this corruption shall put on incorruption, and we will sin no more, Praise God, Halleluia! PEACE!
     
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