1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Why do "evolutionists" pretend that science matters to creationists?

Discussion in 'Evolution Vs. Creationism' started by Jose Fly, Jun 17, 2017.

  1. Jose Fly

    Jose Fly Fisker of men

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2007
    Messages:
    2,679
    Ratings:
    +803
    One common theme in these debates is creationists pretending that this is all about the science and data for them, and then getting the rest of us to buy into that myth. A lot of "evolutionists" do buy into it and try to discuss, explain, and debate the science and data, but it always follows the same pattern......creationist challenges us to "show the evidence", we make the effort to find it and post it, the creationist makes some silly excuse and waves it away, we respond, the creationist ignores most of what we said and then goes to someone else and starts all over again.

    This pattern can only continue as long as everyone goes along with the creationist's charade that the data and science matter to them, and assumes that if only they were presented the right data set and/or had it explained to them in just the right way, they might change their minds.

    Obviously that assumption is wrong, and many times creationists will show it right up front. For example, very early on in the "Just Accidental" thread Deeje tells Valjean "I assure you that you will never impose your view on me". Then a bit later when AndromedaRXJ suggests that Deeje needs to understand the science better, she responds "Save your breath". Then a bit later Deeje says "I have heard it all before. I dismissed it years ago. Nothing in modern science has been produced that makes me want to change my opinion". And after AndromedaRXJ posts a detailed response, Deeje dismisses it all with "You are free to believe whatever you wish...No one will ever convince me that the billions of amazing lifeforms on this planet evolved from a single organism that somehow sprang to life in some primordial soup billions of years ago.".

    So as we can see, Deeje was very clear from the beginning that she cannot and will not be persuaded by any appeals to the science. Yet people in that thread still spent hundreds of posts and countless hours trying to persuade her by appealing to the science.

    My question is......why?

    Why do so many of us buy into the myth that creationists can be persuaded by the data? Why do so many of us spend considerable amounts of time finding, posting, and explaining scientific data to people who rarely even look at it, and when they do they just look for something they can use as an excuse to dismiss it ("Oh look, they used the word 'likely', therefore the entire thing is speculation")? And why do we ignore the unambiguous signals creationists give us right up front that clearly show our appeals to science will be a waste of time?
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Useful Useful x 2
    • Winner Winner x 1
  2. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2005
    Messages:
    42,009
    Ratings:
    +6,927
    You cannot reason someone out of something he or she was not reasoned into.
     
    • Like Like x 5
    • Winner Winner x 3
    • Useful Useful x 1
  3. Jose Fly

    Jose Fly Fisker of men

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2007
    Messages:
    2,679
    Ratings:
    +803
    Yet people keep trying. It's fascinating.
     
  4. sunrise123

    sunrise123 Darkness will pass. Dawn is almost here.
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2014
    Messages:
    13,866
    Ratings:
    +3,615
    Religion:
    Love
    • Like Like x 2
    • Informative Informative x 1
  5. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2005
    Messages:
    42,009
    Ratings:
    +6,927
    Boredom?
    Curiosity as to just how far some people are willing to go to deny reality in favour of they beliefs?
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Funny Funny x 1
  6. The Holy Bottom Burp

    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Messages:
    148
    Ratings:
    +88
    Religion:
    None
    Just to add a little yin to the yang the former head of the Human Genome Project, Francis Collins, is a Christian. He is (obviously) a strong advocate of the fact of evolution, he says it can be demonstrated to be true by the genetic evidence alone, you don't need fossils. I suppose young Earthers would say he is being "unbiblical" in his beliefs, but I'd say that beats being irrational in his beliefs.
    Some theists try to use science to 'prove' that a god(s) exist, some theists deny science and look for anything that might contradict an established theory. Whatever, evangelical theists are salespeople, they want to sell you a message and recruit you into their club. They come at you from different angles, but the objective is the same, gain another recruit, another sale. They often don't care about your beliefs, they just want to deal with any objections you might have to their religion so they can sign you up, just like any good salesperson.
    Personally I don't like to discuss science with religious people, science and religion are two different animals. I've no problem with correcting erroneous views a religious person has about a scientific theory, but outside of that the two things really don't mix.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  7. Sartre

    Sartre Trying to find what I can on Irish Folklore

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2015
    Messages:
    3,280
    Ratings:
    +2,436
    Well in practice it has worked.
    It really just needs more discretion.

    If they merely don't understand it can yield results in the future if one corrects the incorrect ideas.

    If they think that Darwin caused the Holocaust and was friends with Hitler, move on.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  8. Jaiket

    Jaiket Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Messages:
    7,471
    Ratings:
    +1,330
    Cause we're evangelical about our perspectives. We like to compare our understanding to ones we suspect are inferior - it makes us feel better about ourselves. We like to argue.

    Sometimes people can be surprised out of certainty by an unexpected result or finding and minds can be changed slowly.
     
  9. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Kissed by fire

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    37,229
    Ratings:
    +9,438
    Religion:
    Book of Heavy Metal
    Just the very fact they came up with "evolutionist" nonsense is proof enough they really don't care about science. Even those among them who are electricians, I very strongly doubt any of them would even think about or consider calling themselves an "Ohmist."
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. SabahTheLoner

    SabahTheLoner I'm here too

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    180
    Ratings:
    +84
    Religion:
    Satanic Pagan. Both atheist and theist. Syncretic.
    Many people just want others to "know they're right" while not considering the fact they're just as likely to be wrong. With religion, who can prove right or wrong, especially if given lack of evidence? We don't even know if things like the Big Bang actually happened, yet many scientists subscribe to that theory, because they linked things like the movement of the universe to the theory. But you can just as easily say the Big Bang happened because that was God making the first light. And the movement of the universe probably doesn't have anything to do with the Big Bang. How do we know who is right when it's all theory and claim? I think that's what most arguments boil down to: a want to be right, but most people forget that they could be equally mistaken.
     
  11. The Holy Bottom Burp

    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Messages:
    148
    Ratings:
    +88
    Religion:
    None
    Hey Wolfy, I say three ohms before my yoga class begins, frankly I think you're a bit of a bigot. Ohmists forever!
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  12. Nietzsche

    Nietzsche The Last Prussian
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2010
    Messages:
    6,672
    Ratings:
    +6,883
    Religion:
    Heathen King
    I would argue that's not a problem relating to being a Christian, that's a problem relating to be a dumb ***.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  13. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2010
    Messages:
    17,889
    Ratings:
    +4,433
    Religion:
    Agnostic
    I agree with you that the creationist agenda is bent on disparaging evolution as much as possible, and by using a number underhanded ploys that, put up against their professed christian ethic, would be otherwise roundly condemned. But being able to rope off their ethics from their goal of disparagement, they forge on with deceit, purposeful ignorance and misunderstandings, and fallacious logic. It's hardly cricket by any definition, but they see their mission as being far more important than the deceits they engage in, so they're able to salve any pangs of conscious that may arise. The rallying cry that justifies all this then is one of "SAVE THE TRUTH OF THE BIBLE AT ANY COST. ALL COSTS"

    Confronted with such dangerous hogwash---dangerous in it's ability to lead people astray and away from the truths of science--we good people of conscience take them on. Not so much (at least in my case) to convince them, but to keep their insidious blather from gaining ground in the minds of others, and perhaps to change a mind or two already taken in by the camp of creationist claptrap.

    Then, of course, there's the satisfaction of showing up creationists for what they are [​IMG] . . . . . . and in front everyone else no less. :D

    .
     
    #13 Skwim, Jun 17, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2017
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Looncall

    Looncall Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2010
    Messages:
    2,271
    Ratings:
    +313
    Not as easily at all. Scientific conclusions are based on, you know, actual observations, while religious ones are not. You cannot honestly dismiss the science without giving explicit reasons why.
     
  15. SabahTheLoner

    SabahTheLoner I'm here too

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    180
    Ratings:
    +84
    Religion:
    Satanic Pagan. Both atheist and theist. Syncretic.
    So religion automatically dismisses science? Science cannot prove a religious observation to be true or false? Not even in theory? By "actual" observations, I assume you mean testable ones. So stuff like dreams aren't directly testable and not an "actual" observation. I guess that's fine, but some people want to fill the gap between the explained and the unknowable. An infinitely small point suddenly creating light sounds quite a bit like some sort of magic, not to mention too awesome to be possible. How would that be the absolute beginning, in theory and plausibility? Just because we can look into the sky and do calculations on where things once were doesn't mean it always was or will be that way. It's just what we know. That changes all the time.
     
  16. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man.

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2009
    Messages:
    11,409
    Ratings:
    +2,767
    Religion:
    Zen Buddhism
    It dosent appeal because it dosent have any effect on disposition. If there isn't any relevance to the matter at hand, why bother changing disposition? Even when it's wrong or in error.
     
  17. Jose Fly

    Jose Fly Fisker of men

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2007
    Messages:
    2,679
    Ratings:
    +803
    That's a neat story, but it's 1) a bit short on details, and 2) involves a pretty unique set of circumstances (how many creationists meet both Michael Behe and Francis Collins).

    But it does show one thing......whenever I first encounter a creationist I always give them the benefit of the doubt and I will take time to show them some of the science. But once it becomes clear that it's not going to make any difference, I stop. And my point with this thread is to ask those who will just keep on trying to show them science, even after it's clear they aren't open to it......why?
     
  18. Jose Fly

    Jose Fly Fisker of men

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2007
    Messages:
    2,679
    Ratings:
    +803
    Now that I can understand and relate to. Sometimes I will show certain creationists scientific information, for no other reason than to see what goofy excuse they'll make to deny it. For those who are students of human behavior, it's pretty entertaining.
     
  19. Jose Fly

    Jose Fly Fisker of men

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2007
    Messages:
    2,679
    Ratings:
    +803
    What specifically are you referring to?

    Have you ever encountered a creationist for whom it was merely a matter of not understanding the subject?
     
  20. Jose Fly

    Jose Fly Fisker of men

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2007
    Messages:
    2,679
    Ratings:
    +803
    So again, it's more about the entertainment factor....the sheer sport of debate.

    I've been doing this in one form or another for almost 20 years, and in all that time I've personally seen one creationist change his mind, and even that was a unique circumstance.