Why do Christians worship Mary?

[MaddLlama]

KC, I have another question for you. I know this sounds off topic but just go with me..

Do you have a problem with Christians believing that your Gods are really demons in disguise?

 

[logician]

Aside from the myth of giving birth to the supposed Jesus, what did Mary ever do?

 

[Bishka]

Aside from the myth of giving birth to the supposed Jesus, what did Mary ever do?

That was the miracle, the giving birth of the Son of God by a Virgin.

 

[MaddLlama]

Aside from the myth of giving birth to the supposed Jesus, what did Mary ever do?

She gave birth to the "founder" of the religion, without breaking her hymen. What more does she have to do? Pull a rabbit out of her butt?

 

[Gentoo]

Aside from the myth of giving birth to the supposed Jesus, what did Mary ever do?

She gave birth, raised the child with her husband and was there for Jesus in life as well as in death because he was her son and she loved him based on that first. In other words, she was his mother, in all senses of the word.

 

[logician]

She gave birth, raised the child with her husband and was there for Jesus in life as well as in death because he was her son and she loved him based on that first. In other words, she was his mother, in all senses of the word.

Really, you were there, and saw all this, because besides the supposed birth story, none of this "good mother" stuff was ever recorded. Let's face it, the whole thing is just a story with no basis whatsoever in fact.

 

[Bishka]

Really, you were there, and saw all this, because besides the supposed birth story, none of this "good mother" stuff was ever recorded. Let's face it, the whole thing is just a story with no basis whatsoever in fact.

You cannot prove no more then I can prove that Christ exists. Its all about experience and what is true to the believer. You cannot disprove someones experiences with a deity no more then you can prove them.

It's fact for us.

 

[Gentoo]

Really, you were there, and saw all this, because besides the supposed birth story, none of this "good mother" stuff was ever recorded. Let's face it, the whole thing is just a story with no basis whatsoever in fact.

It's based on what I know a mother to be. If she was the mother to the son of God, then God must have known what he was doing, and chose HER specifically out of all the other women in the world. That says something to me.

 

[Mike182]

Really, you were there, and saw all this, because besides the supposed birth story, none of this "good mother" stuff was ever recorded. Let's face it, the whole thing is just a story with no basis whatsoever in fact.

now this is not fair. i have no problem with you debating Christian theology or practise, but to then shrug their beliefs off as being baseless anyway is in poor taste. if you ask a question based on faith, don't mock the answer :tsk:

 

[Kcnorwood]

First of all this is a debate fourm, it doesn't matter what my belifes are, if one of you are taking this personal then maybe you should not be in this fourm. It's for fun.

On to what Jeremiah 7:18: says your right it does sound like the bible is talking about the Pagan Goddess. However in the post I just put up it say's
she rules providentially with Christ, the King of Heaven I don't know of any Pagan Gods who call themselves christ, do you? Here again in this passage it says; Although Catholic theology attempts to draw a line between the worship offered to God and that offered to Mary, in practice these frequently become indistinguishable.
Rome may deny that Mary is worshiped as God. But to attribute to her powers which involve omniscience and omnipresence, if she is to hear [and answer] the prayers of millions, is to accord to her what belongs to God alone. Furthermore, the prayers themselves are phrased in such a way that it is hard to distinguish them from those offered to God. Read this prayer:

Immaculate Heart! Help us to conquer the menace of evil...From famine and war, deliver us...From sins against the life of man from its very beginning, deliver us. From hatred and from the demeaning of the dignity of the children of God, deliver us. From every kind of injustice in the life of society, both national and international, deliver us. From readiness to trample on the commandments of God, deliver us. From attempts to stifle in human hearts the very truth of God, deliver us. From the loss of awareness of evil, deliver us. From sins against the Holy Spirit, deliver us.
Jesus Christ, not Paul, nor any other biblical writer ever gave Mary the place or devotion the Catholic Church has given her for a thousand years.
Yes this is just one persons view of this, I'm sure there are more to support & deny this too.

Again, this is a place of debate it should not matter what my faith is, nor what yours is. I find it fun & insightful to hear peoples different views. I guess some of you don't & thats too bad.

 

[Kcnorwood]

You cannot prove no more then I can prove that Christ exists. Its all about experience and what is true to the believer. You cannot disprove someones experiences with a deity no more then you can prove them.

It's fact for us.

You're excatly right all belifes are faith based. Some people just do not understand that.

 

[Mike182]

First of all this is a debate fourm, it doesn't matter what my belifes are, if one of you are taking this personal then maybe you should not be in this fourm. It's for fun.

On to what Jeremiah 7:18: says your right it does sound like the bible is talking about the Pagan Goddess. However in the post I just put up it say's
she rules providentially with Christ, the King of Heaven I don't know of any Pagan Gods who call themselves christ, do you? Here again in this passage it says; Although Catholic theology attempts to draw a line between the worship offered to God and that offered to Mary, in practice these frequently become indistinguishable.
Rome may deny that Mary is worshiped as God. But to attribute to her powers which involve omniscience and omnipresence, if she is to hear [and answer] the prayers of millions, is to accord to her what belongs to God alone. Furthermore, the prayers themselves are phrased in such a way that it is hard to distinguish them from those offered to God. Read this prayer:

Immaculate Heart! Help us to conquer the menace of evil...From famine and war, deliver us...From sins against the life of man from its very beginning, deliver us. From hatred and from the demeaning of the dignity of the children of God, deliver us. From every kind of injustice in the life of society, both national and international, deliver us. From readiness to trample on the commandments of God, deliver us. From attempts to stifle in human hearts the very truth of God, deliver us. From the loss of awareness of evil, deliver us. From sins against the Holy Spirit, deliver us.
Jesus Christ, not Paul, nor any other biblical writer ever gave Mary the place or devotion the Catholic Church has given her for a thousand years.
Yes this is just one persons view of this, I'm sure there are more to support & deny this too.

Again, this is a place of debate it should not matter what my faith is, nor what yours is. I find it fun & insightful to hear peoples different views. I guess some of you don't & thats too bad.

but again i will mention that Mary is not given the same attributes as God, because in Christian theology God is Creator, Mary is created. even if i accept that it is implied that Mary is omniscient and omnipresent, she is not omnipotent or creator - thus from a Christian theological position, she is not Deity.

 

[Kcnorwood]

You might not consider her one but these people do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deity


A deity or god is a postulated preternatural being, who is usually, but not always, of significant power, worshipped, thought holy, divine, or sacred, held in high regard, or respected by human beings.

So I guess you'll have to take it up with them.

 

[Mike182]

You might not consider her one but these people do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deity


A deity or god is a postulated preternatural being, who is usually, but not always, of significant power, worshipped, thought holy, divine, or sacred, held in high regard, or respected by human beings.

So I guess you'll have to take it up with them.

but were not talking about them, we're talking about the Christian faith - which defines God in the theological terms of omnipotent, omnibenevolent, omniscient, omnipresent, and creator of all things - Mary is not put in that definition, Christians do not define her a Deity, and we are talking about Christianity!

 

[Kcnorwood]

Maybe it's just me but um.. how is she not? I'm confused on this one.

 

[Mike182]

Maybe it's just me but um.. how is she not? I'm confused on this one.

from the Christian standpoint, for God to be God, God must be all of the Omnis (as stated in the above post) and has to be the creator of everything.

so in the Christian traditions, it is simple - anything that is not all of these things is not God, and so should not be worshipped. Mary is not all of these things, even if i accept that it is implied she is omniscient and omnipresent.

so in the Chrisitan tradition, Mary is not a Goddess.

you did say that they pray to her, which is correct - some Christian denominations do pray to Mary. they ask her to recieve their prayers and thoughts, and present them to God. one of the articles you posted quoted one of the popes as stating Mary as mediator between them and God.

as i have said in a previous post, i can pray to an ancestor or a spirit for guidance, but that i paralel to me asking a friend or family member for guidance or help - only the being i am asking is dead - so i use the word pray instead of ask, but it means the same thing in this instance.

the prayer you quoted is asking some pretty hefty things of Mary, asking her to deliver the world from a lot of bads... she is claimed to be a miraculous figure, a figure of inspiration - if all the world were to take her as an example of how to live, the world would have a lot of bad stuff removed - just like if all the world were to take Mother Teresa as an example of how to live, or Gandalf. but you seem to be making the assumption that you can't pray (ask) a figure for help, or take a figure as an example, without worshiping them. i am saying that praying (asking) a figure for help, and taking said figure as an example does not necessitate worshiping them.

 

[Bishka]

Maybe it's just me but um.. how is she not? I'm confused on this one.

They don't worship her as a deity for one.

 

[dan]

She gave birth to the "founder" of the religion, without breaking her hymen. What more does she have to do? Pull a rabbit out of her butt?

Wait a minute. You actually believe she was a virgin for her entire life? What scripture supports this?

 

[Bishka]

Wait a minute. You actually believe she was a virgin for her entire life? What scripture supports this?

No, I think what MaddLlama was stating, was that she was a virgin when she gave birth to Christ. That's all.

 

[Kcnorwood]

from the Christian standpoint, for God to be God, God must be all of the Omnis (as stated in the above post) and has to be the creator of everything.

so in the Christian traditions, it is simple - anything that is not all of these things is not God, and so should not be worshipped. Mary is not all of these things, even if i accept that it is implied she is omniscient and omnipresent.

so in the Chrisitan tradition, Mary is not a Goddess.

you did say that they pray to her, which is correct - some Christian denominations do pray to Mary. they ask her to recieve their prayers and thoughts, and present them to God. one of the articles you posted quoted one of the popes as stating Mary as mediator between them and God.

as i have said in a previous post, i can pray to an ancestor or a spirit for guidance, but that i paralel to me asking a friend or family member for guidance or help - only the being i am asking is dead - so i use the word pray instead of ask, but it means the same thing in this instance.

the prayer you quoted is asking some pretty hefty things of Mary, asking her to deliver the world from a lot of bads... she is claimed to be a miraculous figure, a figure of inspiration - if all the world were to take her as an example of how to live, the world would have a lot of bad stuff removed - just like if all the world were to take Mother Teresa as an example of how to live, or Gandalf. but you seem to be making the assumption that you can't pray (ask) a figure for help, or take a figure as an example, without worshiping them. i am saying that praying (asking) a figure for help, and taking said figure as an example does not necessitate worshiping them.

I see what your saying & yes that prayer foes ask some pretty big things of Mary.

I ran across this site I thought it was intresting, please let me know what you think.
http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/omnip.htm


At some point I guess it really depends on how you wish to view her.

While Liguori and Catholics surely do not specifically claim that Mary is deity, you will see that they have indeed elevated her to a position that is second only to God, and at times materially indistinguishable from God. The do seem to have done just that even if they dont admit it.