Why do Christians worship Mary?

[Kcnorwood]

Have you been paying attention at all? Or do you keep jumping into the thread just to be argumentative?

By the way, did you read my post to you several pages back about Mary not being a goddess?

Sorry you can't see it...

 

[logician]

Do Catholics pray TO saints?
We pray with saints, not to them.


?

For the umpteenth time , praying to or WITH anything is an act of worship, according to the definition. If you don't like the definition, talk to Webster.

"prayer1
–noun 1.a devout petition to God or an object of worship. 2.a spiritual communion with God or an object of worship, as in supplication, thanksgiving, adoration, or confession. 3.the act or practice of praying to God or an object of worship.
"

If it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, it's probably a duck.

 

[MaddLlama]

Sorry you can't see it...

Can't see what?

 

[chlotilde]

For the umpteenth time , praying to or WITH anything is an act of worship, according to the definition. If you don't like the definition, talk to Webster.

"prayer1
–noun 1.a devout petition to God or an object of worship. 2.a spiritual communion with God or an object of worship, as in supplication, thanksgiving, adoration, or confession. 3.the act or practice of praying to God or an object of worship.
"

praying is a verb not a noun...and not everyone follows the same dictionary gods as you do, my dictionary god (Merriam Webster) states

Main Entry: pray
Pronunciation: 'prA
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French prier, praer, preier, from Latin precari, from prec-, prex request, prayer; akin to Old High German frAga question, frAgEn to ask, Sanskrit prcchati he asks
transitive verb
1 : [SIZE=-1]ENTREAThttp://www.m-w.com/dictionary/entreat, [SIZE=-1]IMPLORE[/SIZE] -- often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea <pray be careful>
2 : to get or bring by praying
intransitive verb
1 : to make a request in a humble manner
2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving[/SIZE]

I pray that this dictionary crusade ends soon.

 

[Mike182]

there is an assumption that you can only pray to something if you respect that thing as a deity - this is a false assumption. i pray to my Gran, doesn't mean i percieve her to be a goddess

Edit: in my system of beliefs, i believe spirits and ancestors can guide us and help us - that's why i pray to my Gran, in case anyone was wondering.

i could be wrong, but i see praying to the dead (Mary, Saints) and just like asking people who are living for guidance... only they are dead, so i can't *ask* them in the traditional sense.

 

[MaddLlama]

It's because you are trying to tell them what they believe, when they don't believe what you are accusing them of. It's really that simple. You are imposing your beliefs on them by telling them what they have told you isn't really their doctrine and belief. It's a pathetic way to tear someone down.

Didn't you know? Anybody who used to be a Christian knows more about it than those that still are.

 

[Bishka]

there is an assumption that you can only pray to something if you respect that thing as a deity - this is a false assumption. i pray to my Gran, doesn't mean i percieve her to be a goddess

Edit: in my system of beliefs, i believe spirits and ancestors can guide us and help us - that's why i pray to my Gran, in case anyone was wondering.

i could be wrong, but i see praying to the dead (Mary, Saints) and just like asking people who are living for guidance... only they are dead, so i can't *ask* them in the traditional sense.

Excellent words mike!

 

[Kcnorwood]

No, I am not trying to tell them what to believe none of us are. Wander has showed you all what the defintion of the word means. With no religous overtones what so ever. Secondly this is a debate I don't know why some people are taken it so personally.

 

[Bishka]

No, I am not trying to tell them what to believe none of us are. Wander has showed you all what the defintion of the word means

Yet Wanderer isn't Catholic, they are. You would think that a Catholic understand their meaning of the word a little more then an atheist, wouldn't you?

 

[MaddLlama]

So, KC, I don't suppose you're ever going to answer me about that Jerimiah quote you posted?

 

[Kcnorwood]

I can't find it post it again & I'll respond to it.

 

[Kcnorwood]

I found this I thought it was intresting,

http://www.johnankerberg.org/Articles/_PDFArchives/roman-catholicism/RC3W1204.pdf

But here's hte line I thought was most intresing..


Mary now glorifed in body and soul reigns in heaven toghether with her son.

I'm sure you'll turn that around somehow.

 

[Mike182]

No, I am not trying to tell them what to believe none of us are. Wander has showed you all what the defintion of the word means. With no religous overtones what so ever. Secondly this is a debate I don't know why some people are taken it so personally.

we have given examples of how you can pray to something without worshiping it, or giving it Godlike status... yet you maintain that Christians worship Saints and Mary. i don't see any debate here myself

 

[MaddLlama]

Fine.

Talking about Jerimiah 7:18

You're wrong.

In that verse the "queen of heaven" they are referring to is an actual Pagan goddess, namely, Ashtoreth - God is expressing his anger that some of the Isrealites are adopting Pagan worship instead of worshiping him.

Yes, later on the church did use the term and apply it to Mary, but that point has absolutely no relevence to this quote whatsoever. Jerimiah is part of the Old Testament, which if you remember your church history so well came before Jesus and the virgin birth. It was only after the event (actually, likely years after the book was compiled, which was hundreds of years after it supposedly happened) that Christians began calling Mary the "queen of heaven". How could the Isrealites be pouring libations to Mary when the virgin birth that made her worthy of reverence had not happened yet?

Ashtoreth (who, if you didn't know is a Phoenician fertility goddess) was called "the queen of heaven" by the people who worshipped her (the Canaanites), which is why that term is being used in the verse cited. And, it's also not the first time God got angry that his people were worshiping the gods and goddesses of the area instead of him....there is mention of Ashtoreth and others in several books in the OT; namely Samuel, Judges and Kings.

And, before you say it again, I am not a Christian, I am a Pagan.

 

[Mike182]

I found this I thought it was intresting,

http://www.johnankerberg.org/Articles/_PDFArchives/roman-catholicism/RC3W1204.pdf

But here's hte line I thought was most intresing..


Mary now glorifed in body and soul reigns in heaven toghether with her son.

I'm sure you'll turn that around somehow.

i like the third paragraph of that article... it clearly explains Catholic teaching that Christ (God) works his power through Mary - the power is not of Mary, because that would be giving her Godlike status and making her an Idol of false worship.

 

[MaddLlama]

BTW....if there are some Catholics who do worship Mary against the offical doctrine of the Catholic church....why do you as a Pagan care? What does it matter to you? Are you on a fluffy crusade to show the world how evil and wrong Christianity is?

 

[Kcnorwood]

I'm just talking about Mary, for me I don't pray to anything but my Gods.I can't seeing praying to anyone like say my grandfather although I love & miss him dearly, I guess I don't see the point. I found this too.

Rome may deny that Mary is worshiped as God. But to attribute to her powers which involve omniscience and omnipresence, if she is to hear [and answer] the prayers of millions, is to accord to her what belongs to God alone. Furthermore, the prayers themselves are phrased in such a way that it is hard to distinguish them from those offered to God. As Queen of Heaven, she rules providentially with Christ, the King of Heaven. Although views in the Roman Church vary, Mary has usually been elevated above all the prophets, apostles, saints, popes, and even the Catholic Church itself. In the words of Pope Paul VI, "...The place she occupies in the Church [is] 'the highest place and the closest to us after Jesus.= A
Heres the website http://home.insightbb.com/~cathiadenham2/Facts%20on%20Roman%20Catholicism/Roman%20Catholicism%20--%2013.htm

 

[Gentoo]

BTW....if there are some Catholics who do worship Mary against the offical doctrine of the Catholic church....why do you as a Pagan care? What does it matter to you? Are you on a fluffy crusade to show the world how evil and wrong Christianity is?

Because some people like to fit everything into pre-existing boxes or labels and can't take it when something doesn't fit in them.

 

[MaddLlama]

I'm just talking about Mary, for me I don't pray to anything but my Gods.I can't seeing praying to anyone like say my grandfather although I love & miss him dearly, I guess I don't see the point. I found this too.

Rome may deny that Mary is worshiped as God. But to attribute to her powers which involve omniscience and omnipresence, if she is to hear [and answer] the prayers of millions, is to accord to her what belongs to God alone. Furthermore, the prayers themselves are phrased in such a way that it is hard to distinguish them from those offered to God. As Queen of Heaven, she rules providentially with Christ, the King of Heaven. Although views in the Roman Church vary, Mary has usually been elevated above all the prophets, apostles, saints, popes, and even the Catholic Church itself. In the words of Pope Paul VI, "...The place she occupies in the Church [is] 'the highest place and the closest to us after Jesus.= A
Heres the website http://home.insightbb.com/~cathiadenham2/Facts%20on%20Roman%20Catholicism/Roman%20Catholicism%20--%2013.htm

So you agree then, that the verse you quoted earlier in the thread is not in fact referring to the worship of Mary as a goddess?

And, again, why do you care?

 

[Mike182]

I'm just talking about Mary, for me I don't pray to anything but my Gods.I can't seeing praying to anyone like say my grandfather although I love & miss him dearly, I guess I don't see the point. I found this too.

Rome may deny that Mary is worshiped as God. But to attribute to her powers which involve omniscience and omnipresence, if she is to hear [and answer] the prayers of millions, is to accord to her what belongs to God alone. Furthermore, the prayers themselves are phrased in such a way that it is hard to distinguish them from those offered to God. As Queen of Heaven, she rules providentially with Christ, the King of Heaven. Although views in the Roman Church vary, Mary has usually been elevated above all the prophets, apostles, saints, popes, and even the Catholic Church itself. In the words of Pope Paul VI, "...The place she occupies in the Church [is] 'the highest place and the closest to us after Jesus.= A
Heres the website http://home.insightbb.com/~cathiadenham2/Facts%20on%20Roman%20Catholicism/Roman%20Catholicism%20--%2013.htm

and yet, they still recognise her as created, and not creator - which is attributed to God alone.