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Featured Why do Christians side with Jews more than Muslims?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Epic Beard Man, Nov 6, 2018.

  1. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    Misquote? Did I not use the words you, yourself, or people you were referring to did? All I know is, you nay-say anyone with an opinion counter to your own (or refuse to even respond to - saying "I already refuted you" - a hallmark statement of someone who knows they can't actually back up their words and is looking to simply dodge the situation - which I highly suspect is true), and the moment someone backed you up by calling Christians "tantrum throwing babies" you thanked them like they had just solved world hunger.
     
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  2. Shiranui117

    Shiranui117 Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
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    What's interesting is that Church Fathers contemporaneous to the initial Islamic expansions into Byzantine territory thought of Islam as some weird version of Arianism or other kinds of Christian heresy. My guess is they thought that eventually the Arabs would convert to Orthodoxy just as the Goths had before.
     
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  3. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

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    I think that is the problem you're having here. The conflict you're referring to isn't really rooted in theology, it's mostly about political culture.

    Judaism is predominantly defensive. The ancient Israelites were surrounded by much more powerful neighbors. Like the Assyrians and Chaldeans and Egyptians.
    Christianity and Islam were both primarily shaped by warlords and their followers, Constantine and Muhammad et al. They were designed as instruments of domination. Weapons for empire building.

    And they worked superbly. Although EuroChristian culture invented better seafaring technology and weaponized gunpowder first, which enabled them to go on the global looting and pillaging spree known as EuroColonialism.

    So they are now the dominant culture on the planet.

    They generally feel about Islam the way Trump feels about Clinton. And they feel about Judaism about the way Clinton feels about Sanders.
    Tom
     
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  4. Notanumber

    Notanumber A Free Man

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    There is a country full of fanatics in Pakistan and more besides. How many fanatics does it take before it becomes an issue of concern?
     
  5. Notanumber

    Notanumber A Free Man

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    Because Jews tend to turn the other cheek if they are insulted instead of turning to violence.
     
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  6. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    Er, right.

    That response, you see, illustrates quite well why I'm not really interested in your opinions on Islam - or much else, in fact.
     
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  7. BSM1

    BSM1 Who's a good boy?

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    Not sure you can separate the theology from the theologian..
     
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  8. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    I didn't spit on those monks with the black robes and the big cross necklaces when I saw them.
     
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  9. Shiranui117

    Shiranui117 Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
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    I by no means meant to imply that all hasidic Jews do this, but it does happen. I know you, Tumah; you're a good man. :)
     
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  10. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    I am a good man.

    Also, you probably don't mean hasidic, but haredi. I reckon you couldn't tell the difference between a hassidic and non-hasidic haredi, but you can maybe tell the difference between a haredi and non-haredi.
     
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  11. Shiranui117

    Shiranui117 Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
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    Yeah, I'll be the first to admit that I know basically nothing about the various groups within Judaism. I know of Reform, Conservative and Orthodox, and I know the Orthodox have a lot of different groups within that, and one of them is called Hasidic, but that's about as far as my knowledge base goes. And then there's the Karaites, but we don't talk about the Karaites.
     
  12. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    Ixnay on the araites kay.
     
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  13. dianaiad

    dianaiad Well-Known Member

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    With all due respect, truth remains truth no matter who speaks it.
     
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  14. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein Pyrphóros ⚡ Lux Aeterna
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    With that in mind, why should Christians support either one? In traditional Christian teaching, both Islam and Judaism are false religions and one must believe in Christ, be Baptized, etc. to be saved. So both Jews and Muslims would be in the same boat as any other non-believer. So you might as well ask why Christians don't support Hindus or people who practice witchcraft. It's all the same in view of the Gospel - false religions. It doesn't mean that you can't respect people as human beings, but you can also disagree with their religion and think yours is the right one. There are civil and polite ways to do this. You can support people as himan beings but not endorse or support their religion. Honestly, I wish the churches would speak plainly on this issue and stop being so spineless and PC.

    As for Zionism, I don't think Christians have any business supporting Zionism. It has nothing to do with them. It may also actually be sinful as the teaching is that God scattered them the land of Israel as a punishment and only God can give that land back to them. Regardless, Christians should support their brothers and sisters in Christ foremost and that includes Palestinian Christians.
     
    #94 Saint Frankenstein, Nov 7, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2018
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  15. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

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    It began as a sincere question but if immediately people commenting about what Muslims do instead of answer the OP itself then my response has to liken the responses that I receive. These are garbage answers because people aren't addressing what I'm writing in my original position. I'm clearly talking about the theological differences that exist between Christianity and Judaism and the Judaic opinion on Christian theology. I made this clear in the beginning! I never mentioned anything about the historical position between Islam and Christianity this is not what its about I clearly stated the fundamental differences and opinions of Jews concering Christianity. I even stated that it is permissible for Jews to pray in a mosque and not a church I made that clear.

    Considering the Christian position concerning the deity Allah, Christians ought to wonder why a Jew is praying in an environment in the home of a supposed moon-god deity as some Christians had professed Allah is. In the "Epistle to Yemen" the Jewish philosopher Maimonides wrote about this.

    Which Muslims? Which government? What does this have to do with what I originally said that specifically was addressing the theology between all three?

    I'm specifically talking about the 10,000 Franks that capture Jerusalem killing Muslims and Jews (innocent ones at that).

    But the object of the thread is to not discuss history because we can discuss the Crusades in depth elsewhere, but to answer your question, I'm referring to several of the Muslim dynasties that had different agendas. You're speaking as if in the entire history of Islam Christians were persecuted. Sure, there were Caliphs that did very bad things. Sure, there were Muslims that have terrorized other people but there are also good aspects of history that you are conveniently forgetting just as you conveniently aren't addressing the theological issue at hand. Judaic philosophical thought, holds you faith as Avodah Zara. Christianity is tri-monotheism and heretical according to the Jewish opinion and holds Islam more monotheistic than Christianity why can't you address that issue?

    Why is that so hard because I'm right? Would you like proof?

    "For Maimonides, Christianity and Islam are related to Judaism. Maimonides's practical view of Christianity was usually assumed to be negative and he regarded Christianity as a form of proscribed polytheism, even for gentiles. In his code of Jewish law, Mishneh Torah, Maimonides basically restated his judgment about the idolatrous status of Christianity without repeating the reasons he gave in his earlier works. As a theologian, he took regularly strong exemption to Christian Trinitarianism. Maimonides ranked Islam superior than Christianity on theological grounds. For him, Christianity is the prime example of the error of such anthropomorphism in its original doctrine of the Incarnation and in its associated doctrine of the Trinity."

    Source:Jewish-Christian Dialogue: A Jewish Justification
     
  16. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

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    You misquoted me because I was talking to someone else some of the words in your original opinion I did not use.
     
  17. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

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    How so? Judaism holds Christianity polytheistic in nature and Maimonides (a famous Jewish thinker) concedes that Islam theologically is superior to Christianity. If Islam is absolutely wrong in the Christian eyes what does that say about the Jew who holds Islam as "more right" theologically?

    How can this be factual? For one Muhammad was never a soldier in anyone's army prior to his prophetic mission. He was a business man and did business with people in his time. Muhammad was called Al-Amin "the Trustworthy" due to his acts as a businessman I don't see any warlord development. People often mistake his post prophetic mission and the battles he was involved in and the decisions he has made as a commander as if he was a complete warlord. In addition you mentioned Constantine which came later after the creation of Christianity and most likely Christianity is very much associated with Paul who was neither a soldier in an army or a military leader so how could Christianity and Islam be built around that?

    The Qur'an or God, cannot help that empires came into existence through the advent of some prophet or leader this is the effect of people who believe in a unified message. I would liken this to Genghis Khan uniting all the Mongolian tribes under one banner. Coming together is the natural effect of people coming together for one common cause. Human beings have caused wars for centuries and people have manipulated scripture for centuries there is nothing new. But by no means does that make Judaism, Christianity and Islam's foundation to be a violent one.
     
  18. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

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    This thread isn't about fanatics though, this is about the theological differences that are infinitely obvious to which you are ignoring.
     
  19. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

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    Yeah, ok if you believe that.
     
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  20. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

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    Ok
     
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