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Featured Why do Christians side with Jews more than Muslims?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Epic Beard Man, Nov 6, 2018.

  1. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    but even the least of servants is a reflection of the belief

    I suspect...strongly suspect...
    the angelic will sort through belief
    each and everyone of us

    What do you believe?
    Who told you that?
    and why did you believe it?

    if they can nod Their heads...you get to follow

    If not....They might draw sword and cut you down where you stand
    and then go looking for the mentor that told you so

    and it is written.....from His mouth proceeds a double edged sword

    unfortunately.....the Muslims believe the sword play belongs to them
     
  2. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

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    Does anyone read? The basis of this thread is in relation to the fundamental difference Jews and Christians have in relation to the similarities Jews and Muslims have. Are people’s biases are so apparent that it affects their reading? I appreciate some of the responses made by others that addressed the actual discussion.
     
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  3. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    Don't really care much about the thread topic myself, but found the responses pretty interesting and read on.

    Just thought it was particularly hilarious that the moment someone sided with you, you claimed they were the ones who "took time" and didn't "[post] garbage". Nearly all your words in this thread just drip with the ooze of bias.

    The funniest part is that you mention the posts against your position as being "emotionally drawn from biases instead of reason", and yet the post you are lauding within your quote above is this:
    So, describing someone as a baby throwing tantrums when they hold an opinion is simply "using reason" in your estimation? Are you joking?

    Besides this, there are problems with this "analogy" you seem to think is so grand. "Islam" proves nothing. Saying that Islam proves that Christianity wasn't "the last" (whatever you think that is supposed to mean) is exactly the same as saying "Scientology proves that Christianity wasn't the last." It means nothing, it has no bearing on anything. Believe me, I don't side with Christianity... don't side with Islam... don't side with Judaism... I think all of it is complete and utter crap and a gross waste of humanity's time and resources. So, as a particularly neutral party considering the thread topic - I can confidently state that you are being incredibly ridiculous.
     
    #63 A Vestigial Mote, Nov 7, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2018
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  4. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    No, I'd like to hear what a thoughtful Muslim has to say, thanks.

    As we all know, scripture requires interpretation and most serious religions also have a body of theology, derived from scripture, that one needs to understand as well.
     
  5. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    having been raised in a Christian country.....
    I can speak of this viewpoint

    but to compare it to a viewpoint I do not possess.......nope

    so....
    it does seem to me.....Islam is a bit to 'pushy'
    having sword in hand
    literally

    and if that doesn't work.....
    they use explosives
     
  6. BSM1

    BSM1 Who's a good boy?

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    Sooo...are you saying we should never judge the group by the actions of a few?
     
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  7. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    It's not "my" issue. It's an attempt to answer the question you posed.

    And yes of course, my point is that the answer to your question lies more in culture than in religious doctrine. Most Christians have only the sketchiest notion of what Muslim belief entails. But the cultural differences are very apparent.

    Look, I'm not trying to attack Islam. If you read what I wrote that should be clear to you. But you wanted to know why Christians tend to identify with, and support, Jews in preference to Muslims, given a choice between the two, and I am offering an explanation of why that may be. Yet your response is to start a defence of Islam, as if I'm attacking it!

    Did you want an honest answer to your question, or not?
     
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  8. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Well-Known Member

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    1. There are observant Jews who've trusted Jesus as Messiah. Historically, they are shunned by their community and assimilate with Gentiles.

    2. Islam says Jews and Christians are mistaken at best and destined for hellfire at worst.

    3. Both testaments warn that those who oppose Israel are ultimately doomed.
     
  9. PopeADope

    PopeADope Habemus papam

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    The Crusades were a counter-attack because the Muslims conquered a whole bunch of land that didn't belong to them, including the Holy Land.

    The Muslims stole the holy land from Christians, so Christians tried to get it back. Sort of like taking land back that the Nazis or anyone conquered.
     
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  10. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

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    Ok let’s start over.

    Jews believe in one indivisible deity the maker of heaven and earth. Muslims believe in one indivisible deity. Most religious Jews would say they have more in common with Muslims than Christians so with that being said, why do Christians support people that don’t believe in their faith theologically?
     
  11. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

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    Muslims stole the Holy land really?
    You are an example of how you can misquote different people.
     
  12. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

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    What is this stuff you posted?
     
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  13. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

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    I’m not saying anything I’m just hoping folks address the theological problem.
     
  14. YmirGF

    YmirGF Bodhisattva

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    I admit I could be quite wrong, but I can't help but think a large part of the problem as outlined in the OP is because Jesus, as described in Christianity, and Jesus as described by Islam, are often so radically different that they may as well be talking about two completely different individuals. Tales that had fallen into disrepute were openly flogged in Islam as being the genuine article. (Ex. Jesus addressing a crowd as a day's old infant).

    The other weird bit is even with Muslim fawning over Jesus and holding him 2nd to Muhammad himself confuses a lot of Christians. The point is that Muslims are not fawning over the Christian Jesus, they are fawning over the Muslim version of Jesus. Amusingly, the Muslim Jesus arose out of the Arab landscape almost 600 years after the fact and many miles from the Holy Land and had no direct connection, whatsoever... SO, there are major credibility issues based on existing accepted dogma.

    Otoh, Christians and Jews had had a relationship all the while over this 600 years period and were, more or less, at ease with each other under the Roman occupation forces. The other thing is that virtually all Christians were former Jews who still had connections to the Jewish community.

    Then, this guy appears, hundreds of years later and hundreds of miles from Jerusalem/Holy land and starts broadcasting his strange (at the time) new message that found few takers for the first decade of his "prophethood".

    I think, part of the problem here, is that from both the Christian and the Jewish viewpoints a lot of what Muhammad was saying was simply grated against their accepted dogma and so, at first, no one took him seriously. They probably thought he had blown a bolt out under the desert sun and it was only after he began to attract followers that that feeling began to change to alarm.

    In answer to the question in the OP asking why Christians are more supportive of Jews than Muslims I would ask why one would expect them to? They had no history with the Muslims until the Muslims came a callin'... with the first Islamic expansions which seized formerly Christian held lands. Those were not especially friendly acts that would have nurtured trust.
     
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  15. Shiranui117

    Shiranui117 Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
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    I'm sorry, I thought you were "sincerely asking" Christians why we preferred to side with Jews rather than Muslims. I guess that wasn't the point of the thread after all, and asking Christians what our opinions on the matter are was a pointless exercise?

    And by the way, it's not a "garbage answer that is emotionally drawn from biases instead of reason" to point out what the net effect of Christian-Muslim historical relations has been. As an Orthodox Christian, I am very well aware of that history, and it's perfectly rational to form an opinion based on historical realities and trends.

    Yes, in large part because Muslims have slowly been extirpating us from our Middle Eastern heartlands for the last 1400 years.

    You mean wars fought with the original purpose to regain Byzantine territory which Western nobles instead used to further their political ambitions, where the Crusaders also slaughtered many Christians and sacked Christian cities? Or the Fourth Crusade that saw the sacking of Constantinople and the permanent crippling of the Byzantine Empire? What about them?

    I don't see what Muslim infighting has to do with the systemic, centuries-long oppression of Christians. The fact is that Ottoman Janissaries were exclusively recruited by raiding Christian villages, kidnapping Christian children, castrating them and forcibly converting them to Islam to serve as the personal guard of the Sultan, often being sent out to raid the very Christian regions they were originally stolen from. The largest church in the world, the Hagia Sophia, was converted into a mosque as one of the first acts of Mehmed II after taking Constantinople. The Ottomans sacked the city with the same brutality that the Crusaders did in 1204, as punishment for not having submitted earlier. When I made a pilgrimage to Thessaloniki this past spring, I saw how Vladates Monastery, one of the most prominent monasteries in the city had been raided, and the Turks had used their bayonets to gouge out all the Christian iconography they could, from the ground up to the ceiling. In some cases the damage was so bad, the plastering had come off entirely. The Turkish slaughter of Greek and Armenian Christians in the 1910's in Turkey was so profound, we invented a new word for it: Genocide.

    Even today Christians suffer persecution under Islamist governments in the Middle East, such as in ISIS territory and Pakistan and during the Muslim Brotherhood's free reign in Egypt. The only reason Christians are beginning to finally experience some semblance of religious freedom (as opposed to dhimmitude) is not because of Islamic principles, but despite them. Muslim herdsmen in Nigeria have killed anywhere between 1500 and 6,000 Christians this year alone. Muslim rebels in the Philippines and southern Ethiopia have also been attacking Christians. Secularism is finally rolling back Shariah Law in some Islamic countries, and that is what is finally giving our people breathing room. Turkey is pulling whatever strings it can to finally extinguish the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, refusing to reopen our seminaries there or even allow for a non-Turkish citizen to be elected to the Patriarchate.

    I could go into the limitations and hardships that Christians face in Zionist Israel, which to be sure there are many, between border patrols, actions of the police and attempts at passing laws that would force many of Jerusalem's oldest churches to close. But we Christians have many, many reasons to not side with the Muslims over the Jews. We have 1400 years of experience in the matter. And that's not emotional bias. That's cold, hard historical reality.

    You asked why Christians sided with Jews more often than Muslims. Whether Jews side with Muslims over Christians is irrelevant to that.
     
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  16. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    Hmm. As someone who grew up as an evangelical and who has known some Catholics, some Baptists, and pretty much most kinds of Christians what I can say is the fellow in the video does an Ok job with some caveats. He mentions the atrocious and theologically unsound Left Behind fiction series, but there are numerous fiction authors who write similar stories about the end of the world. Left Behind represents only one of several very inflexible views of the book Revelation, such as: pre-tribulation, post-tribulation, millennial rein. Sometimes ministers or authors will pick one of these to be experts on and will promote them as the correct view of Revelation. Left Behind is pre-trib, in which Christians are taken away from the planet before a terrible reign of terror by the Beast, and everyone who is not saved gets left behind on the planet. This somehow connects with events in Israel. Where the video fails is that its brief, and he doesn't distinguish the Catholic and the Orthodox who are the original targets of this kind of story telling with the book of Revelation. Christian Zionism is a by-product of the division between the protestants and catholics over four hundred years ago, and what started it was the protestants describing the roman catholic institution as one of the characters in Revelation, the prostitute and the pope as the Beast. The orthodox palestinians certainly do not think that all of Israel must become Jewish, and you don't pick up on this from the video. One recent pope declared that Israel should be a place for all people, which was not popular with protestants. The video is of the fellow trying to sniff the air and get a sense of how Christians relate to Israel, but he is not really that informed. He would need to do a couple of more videos to cover the situation.
     
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  17. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, but alot of people do not know the difference between the true and false
    Jew's of Israel.

    Again, as I am a Christian Jew of Israel,

    Muslims do not believe in the same Jesus as Christians.
    Muslims believe that Jesus is not the Son of God nor do Muslims believe that Jesus is God in the body of flesh and blood.
    Nor do Muslims believe Jesus is God born of a woman Mary.
    So Muslims do not believe in the same Jesus as Christians do.

    Jesus that Muslims believe in the Qu'ran, is the false Christ Jesus.

    As Jesus said in the book of
    Matthew 24:24---"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect"

    Notice Christ Jesus did say
    ( For there shall arise false Christ's)
    Therefore the Christ Jesus that's in the Qu'ran is the false Christ Jesus.

    For the Christ Jesus thats in the Muslims Qu'ran is not the same Christ Jesus, That's in the Christian bible
    For Christ Jesus is the Son of God, Jesus is God in the body of flesh and blood.
    Jesus as God born of a woman Mary.

    So please do tell how Christ Jesus thats in the Christian bible, is the same Christ Jesus thats in the muslims Qu'ran.
     
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  18. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    Yes - that's what I'm saying.
     
  19. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Not all Scripture's requires interpretation.
    As the book of Revelation, God has already given the interpretation of the book of Revelation himself, everything in Revelation God has given what each and everything is, is to be found within Revelation.
     
  20. Shiranui117

    Shiranui117 Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
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    Because Jews don't care about exterminating Christians nearly as much as Muslims have historically. The worst we get is spit on by halakhic Jews in Israel, or the city government in Jerusalem trying to make Christian churches foot the water bill and pay taxes. Now compare that to the Muslim Brotherhood, al-Qaeda, Pakistan, Boko Haram, Saudi Arabia, ISIS, the Umayyads, the Abbasids, the Ottomans, the Fatimids, al-Andalus...
     
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