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Featured Why do Christians follow the old testament?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Elliott, Sep 14, 2017.

  1. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    I don't need the Tanach to know Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah, the Son of the living God, sir. Perhaps you do but I do not. The testimonies of the Apostles are proof enough for me.
     
  2. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

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    Clearly, his studies, his learning, his knowledge and logic was put to good use by Christ. In that he excelled beyond any of the 12 which was why he was given an eye ailment so as to humble him.
     
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  3. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    Amen, brother, amen.
     
  4. Rival

    Rival Divine Adoratrice of Amun
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    There are prophecies that tell us what the messiah is supposed to do and who he is supposed to be. You can't decide that Jesus is the messiah because of things he did independently of the prophecies, because none of these things make him the messiah. It's a cop-out to say 'He'll come back and fulfil the prophecies' that he never did the first time. The whole concept of a messiah is a Jewish concept; you can't therefore claim that X is the messiah whilst completely ignoring all the Jewish messianic prophecies.
     
  5. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    Well, He claimed it, Matthew testified of it and so did all the other Apostles, who were Jews. I believe them and not you.
     
  6. Rival

    Rival Divine Adoratrice of Amun
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    Anyone can claim to be the messiah and anyone can be a 'witness'. Your messiah read from the Tanach and tried to use it to prove himself, so you should at least follow his example.
     
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  7. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    1 Corinthians 1

    22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.
     
  8. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    I am trying to avoid an argument with you that you can't win. I know of the prophecies that clearly point to Christ as Messiah, you deny them. Why go on about it?
     
  9. Rival

    Rival Divine Adoratrice of Amun
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    I can't win? That's funny.

    Trust me, Rival knows what she's doing.
     
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  10. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    Trust me, Rival might have been deceived by the devil, but I have not been.

    Romans 11
    7What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, 8as it is written:

    “God gave them a spirit of stupor,

    eyes that could not see

    and ears that could not hear,

    to this very day.”c

    9And David says:

    “May their table become a snare and a trap,

    a stumbling block and a retribution for them.

    10May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,

    and their backs be bent forever.”d

    Ingrafted Branches

    11Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!


    The scriptures say that Israel will be saved. God will never forget His people.
     
  11. Rival

    Rival Divine Adoratrice of Amun
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    Your Paul means nothing to me.
     
  12. Elliott

    Elliott Member

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    i guess one might say that this is why they only adopted the written teachings and not the oral.
     
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  13. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I know. Neither does Christ or any of the other Apostles. That's why your ancestors brought them to the Romans to be killed, the Jews have rejected them. Which is what Paul said.
     
  14. Elliott

    Elliott Member

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    Who witnessed jesus rising from the dead?
     
  15. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    Are you trying to bait me? Why do you ask me this? All of the Apostles testified to the risen Christ, but not of them actually saw Him rise.
     
  16. Rival

    Rival Divine Adoratrice of Amun
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    The Jewish people are not my ancestors (as far as I know). The Romans put Jesus to death for insurgency.
     
    #56 Rival, Sep 15, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2017
  17. Rival

    Rival Divine Adoratrice of Amun
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    Talmud is an anathema to Christians because it tears apart all their beloved interpretations.
     
  18. Elliott

    Elliott Member

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    If mosaic law was so merciless then why would G-D give it to the jews to begin with?
     
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  19. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

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    As Paul taught us, it was given as a tutor to Christ.
    Gal 3:. 24 So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor. ​
    As I stated, the whole study is large and usually takes a person a long time to understand the details, a long time.

    In the Law (Mosaic Law) we have all kinds of symbols and images pointing to Christ and what this entails. As far as Israel is concerned it began nearly before they became a nation, just before the Exodus. There the Passover, during which Israel was given a means to avoid the angel of death and the Egyptians weren't, demonstrated the Passover Lamb, signifying Christ already there. Thus, in this, Israel had to demonstrate faith by putting the blood of the lamb on their doorposts.

    They were given the earthly tabernacle and later temple/s with its priesthood and its sacrifices, the lamp-stand, the showbread, etc. - that each and every one symbolized things pointing to Christ and all these things (the unleavened bread =the body of Christ, and so forth).

    There could be no real salvation through human works of law. This was one major reason for the law - to demonstrate this. So, the perfection of the Law became a curse to Israel. This told them that a better law was coming, one based on faith.
    Jer 31: 31 Behold, the days come, saith Jehovah, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was a husband unto them, saith Jehovah. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith Jehovah: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people: ​
    This new covenant Jeremiah speaks of with Israel is not the nation Israel but is Spiritual Israel, as Paul teaches us:
    Romans 9:6:But it is not as though the word of God hath come to nought. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel:
    Romans 2 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh: 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.​

    This is where many today become confused, thinking the nation of Israel is Israel. It isn't. The Bible speaks now of Israel, spiritual, according to the promise, not the flesh.

     
  20. Elliott

    Elliott Member

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    I was just asking a question, not baiting. i only ask because the entire jewish nation witnessed the revelation at Mt. Sinai. If i were to accept that jesus was resurrected i could still tell you that there were others who too were resurrected, people who did sin.
     
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