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Featured Why do Christians follow the old testament?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Elliott, Sep 14, 2017.

  1. Elliott

    Elliott Member

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    Is the new testament quoting the old or is it written as part of the text of the new?
     
  2. Elliott

    Elliott Member

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    Perhaps i should rephrase my question for you then, why is the old testament included in the bible?
     
  3. Elliott

    Elliott Member

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    It is written in the Tanach, (Psalms 105:8) "HE remembered HIS covenant forever" does this not mean that the laws brought down will never change?
     
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  4. Elliott

    Elliott Member

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    i too have been told that the rules no longer apply, where do we learn out that they do still apply?
     
  5. Rival

    Rival Divine Adoratrice of Amun
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    The Christian Testament forbids homosexuality and they believe their messiah declared all foods clean as well as other stuff. They only claim to follow the moral law, that is no adultery etc. They never claimed to follow other laws such as not mixing fabrics or observing other such things. That has never been a gentile Christian observance.
     
  6. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

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    The OT is relevant, however, the Mosaic law has been replaced by the New Covenant. In this NC many of the things formerly contained in the ML have been incorporated, but the things pertaining to the nation of Israel and to Jewish worship have been cut out.

    If you want more than the above, let me know.
     
  7. Father Heathen

    Father Heathen Veteran Member

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    I know they don't observe them, that's what I meant by ignoring them. But despite that they still love to quote Leviticus when it comes to condemning homosexuality (even though Leviticus forbids a whole bunch of other things that they don't follow, as you've said.)
     
  8. Rival

    Rival Divine Adoratrice of Amun
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    Yes, because homosexuality is called a 'moral law', while fabric mixing has nothing to do with morality. The laws that Christians don't follow are called in Judaism 'Chukim', and this word is applied to laws that seem to serve no logical or reasonable purpose, such as kashrut, not mixing fabrics and so on. The Christians follow the laws called 'Mishpatim' which are laws that make sense, such as not committing adultery, not murdering etc. There is also a third category called 'Edot'. Christians were never told to follow the chukim laws, but were told to follow the moral/mishpatim laws. Paul makes this very clear, and Jesus also at times (depending on a given interpretation). Because most converts were goyim, the Jerusalem Church decided they need not follow Torah law, but basically a form of Noahide law, because the Torah was never meant to be observed by the goyim.
     
    #28 Rival, Sep 15, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2017
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  9. Elliott

    Elliott Member

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    Why was the mosaic law replaced?
     
  10. Elliott

    Elliott Member

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    Then why include the tanach at all, why not just put all relevant information in the new testament and put the rest aside?
     
  11. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    This is what we are commanded to do:

    Acts 2:42
    They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.

    Acts 15
    5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

    6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear?11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

    12 The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. 13When they finished, James spoke up. “Brothers,” he said, “listen to me. 14Simona has described to us how God first intervened to choose a people for his name from the Gentiles. 15The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:

    16 “ ‘After this I will return

    and rebuild David’s fallen tent.

    Its ruins I will rebuild,

    and I will restore it,

    17 that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,

    even all the Gentiles who bear my name,

    says the Lord, who does these things’b

    18 things known from long ago.c

    19 “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”
     
  12. Rival

    Rival Divine Adoratrice of Amun
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    Well, like I said earlier, they use Tanach to try to prove their messiah. And their testament doesn't really make much sense standalone; they need the background.
     
  13. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    Actually, the apostles, mainly Matthew, used it to prove the Messiah to the Jews. We believe in Jesus because He rose from the dead. Our faith rests on this rather than what the prophets wrote.
     
  14. Rival

    Rival Divine Adoratrice of Amun
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    Well, he needed to be proven to be messiah first; for this one needs the prophecies and background information. Though since I'm not a Christian, the Christians can believe as they please. Not affecting me.
     
  15. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    I understand where you're coming from. You just don't believe the prophecies were about Jesus since He hasn't yet fulfilled all of them. Of course I believe He will.
     
  16. Rival

    Rival Divine Adoratrice of Amun
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    Why don't you believe Bar Kochba will come back and fulfill them? Or Sabbatai Zevi? Or any of the other hundreds of messianic claimants?
     
  17. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

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    First, in the entire study, the subject becomes a bit complex, a few who call themselves Christian claim that we still are under the Mosaic law, and many atheists do also, though it concerns them not. The thing is that Christians are very clearly told that the Mosaic law if kept by Christians voids Christ! And, that is a problem for those who take this standpoint.

    I don't think I can give you the full reasons in just a few lines, but I can give you enough so that you can ask more if you find you have some questions after this.

    Rom 4:14, For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath. (KJV)
    Romans 8:3, For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh (KJV)​

    Let me take it one step at a time. (Mosaic Law, aka. Law)
    From the beginning, the point was the crushing of satan and the redemption of mankind through our Lord, Christ, the Messiah
    Gen 3: 15. . .I will put enmity between thee (satan) and the woman (the means of providing Messiah), and between thy seed (satan's forces) and her seed (primarily Messiah): he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.​
    Tutor to Christ
    To demonstrate to mankind how truly desperate we are, God promised Israel that those who obeyed the Law to the letter would not die (they would live until eternity if obedient), but any disobedience of the law would cause death to those under the law. All died because none could obey perfectly.
    Romans 10:5, "For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them." (Leviticus 18:5) (KJV)
    Gal 3: 11 Now that no man is justified by the law before God, is evident: for, The righteous shall live by faith; 12 and the law is not of faith; but, He that doeth them shall live in them.​
    Since all died, none survived, it was obvious that Works according to Law kills since none can obey perfectly. That meant that something better was needed, a law based on faith.​

    This was the purpose of the law - namely to clearly show us that we cannot in any way earn our salvation by works.
    The Law was for the nation of Israel, not for anyone else outside Israel.

    The Law of Faith
    Aka. the law of Christ, and, the New Covenant:
    The Old Mosaic Law Covenant - promised life to the obedient, all died. In this the Law was shown to be deficient as far as redemption was concerned. It also was specifically for the nation of Israel, not for others.​
    Example:
    As a good businessman grows older, he gains more wealth. When young, his last will and testament reflects his status, his family, etc. As he grows older, he makes new testaments to update his status of properties, wealth, and revised family status, death and births. What is no longer applicable, sold and new things bought, etc. becomes deleted from the new testaments, and what is still valid from before is kept as it is.​

    The New Covenant, the Law of Faith did away with the old Law of Moses. Does this mean that all the laws of the old Law became invalidated. No. It means that the laws that didn't apply any longer were erased and the ones that still applied were inserted into the New Law, New Covenant, the Law of Faith.
    Thus the laws about the priesthood, the temple, the temple animal sacrifices and much more were no longer needed and therefore deleted. Also the strong statement that non obedience, sin, automatically brought a death sentence was no longer true.
    By Christ we then have a law in which faith is at work, not works of law. When we sin by mistake, we can be forgiven if baptized as Christian. The Old Law killed without mercy.
    Colossians 2:13-14, And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross. (KJV)​

    There is much more to say, but to answer your question finally briefly. The old law was replaced because it was death dealing without mercy. The New Covenant that is entered by baptism contains forgiveness by faith. This is conditional by the way, an entire different subject. Thus in the New Covenant, eternal life may be obtained by the faithful.

    Any questions?


     
    #37 Grandliseur, Sep 15, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2017
  18. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    Neither one of those people did what Jesus did, they weren't born of a virgin, they didn't live a perfect life, weren't the Son of God, didn't rise from the dead. I think all that makes enough of a distinction.
     
  19. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    Paul was perhaps the greatest of the Apostles. Unfortunately, most of the Jews will not hear him.
     
  20. Rival

    Rival Divine Adoratrice of Amun
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    Because there is no virgin birth prophecy; the messiah is not supposed to be a god; he isn't supposed to live a perfect life and not supposed to rise from the dead either. I challenge you to find me any of these in the Tanach.
     
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