Why do Christians care so much about abortion?

[metis]

I say murder because I feel it is murder under OT law.

Actually it's not under Jewish Law, as causing a woman to miscarry resulted in a fine, not capital punishment.

 

[DavidFirth]

Actually it's not under Jewish Law, as causing a woman to miscarry resulted in a fine, not capital punishment.

That's your opinion. Murdering a slave was also not capital punishment.

 

[metis]

That's your opinion.

It is not if you bother to take some time to look it up: Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)

 

[DavidFirth]

It is not if you bother to take some time to look it up: Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)

I derived and deduced what I think based on all 613 of those commandments, not just one of them.

 

[Mister Emu]

So why do modern Bible based Christians?

May as well ask why there is a tradition going back to, at least, the Didache understanding that the prohibition on murder included abortion.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

But I really started this thread asking "Why?" of Scripture based Christians. I know Scripture pretty well, and feticide just isn't in there as an issue. It would be different if Christians were more honest and sensible about it. But it seems more to be used as a moral football for political purposes, using ineffective and destructive methods. The end results of such methods just make things worse.

The other part of the puzzle is that it often doesn't make sense in the context of other things they're doing. It's very common for people to oppose measures that decrease the amount of abortion by decreasing unwanted pregnancy (e.g. contraception and proper sex ed) as well as measures that encourage women to choose options other than abortion by means that benefit the woman (e.g. government-funded medical care, or a decent job-protected, paid parental leave).

There are some individual exceptions, of course, but the "anti-abortion" movement would look very different if it was actually being guided by a desire to eliminate abortions as its highest priority.

 

[columbus]

May as well ask why there is a tradition going back to, at least, the Didache understanding that the prohibition on murder included abortion.

I understand that. To me, moral opposition to elective abortion is kind of a no brainer.
But it isn't scriptural.

The lack of evidence based opinions among the strongest anti-feticide people is yet another problem. I don't think that modern preachers and politicians really care about the issue itself. That's why their methods of combating it are so ineffective and inhumane.

The ProLife movement in the USA today seems more interested in scoring donations and elections than actually preventing abortion! This gets my goat. Because even people like VP Pence don't care as much about reducing the problem as they do scoring off it.

To be perfectly blunt, I think many ProLife leaders would hate having abortion disappear, because it would deprive them of the advantages gained by pretending to oppose it. This isn't different from the Gay Rights people who would hate to see homophobia disappear, because fighting it is so fun and profitable.
Same with some anti racist people, like BLM.
Tom

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The ProLife movement in the USA today seems more interested in scoring donations and elections than actually preventing abortion! This gets my goat. Because even people like VP Pence don't care as much about reducing the problem as they do scoring off it.

Even the part of the movement that's serious about preventing abortion seems generally uninterested in any approach to reduce abortions that will make a pregnant woman happier or better off.

 

[Mister Emu]

But it isn't scriptural.

My point is that Christians, as far back as we have been called that, have opposed abortion as scripturally proscribed. You can say you don't believe that there is anything particularly against abortion in Christian scripture, but, we have a long tradition dating back to the earliest years of Church leaders and fathers disagreeing with you.

To be perfectly blunt, I think many ProLife leaders would hate having abortion disappear, because it would deprive them of the advantages gained by pretending to oppose it. This isn't different from the Gay Rights people who would hate to see homophobia disappear, because fighting it is so fun and profitable.
Same with some anti racist people, like BLM.

I fully agree with you on this, and it disgusts me.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

My point is that Christians, as far back as we have been called that, have opposed abortion as scripturally proscribed. You can say you don't believe that there is anything particularly against abortion in Christian scripture, but, we have a long tradition dating back to the earliest years of Church leaders and fathers disagreeing with you.

It seems like that question could be settled quickly and easily by going to the scriptures themselves, no?

I mean, regardless of how long anyone has held the opinion that the Christian scriptures prohibit abortion, that prohibition is either there or it isn't... right? So what does the Bible actually say that you think prohibits abortion?

 

[Mister Emu]

It seems like that question could be settled quickly and easily by going to the scriptures themselves, no?

I mean, regardless of how long anyone has held the opinion that the Christian scriptures prohibit abortion, that prohibition is either there or it isn't... right? So what does the Bible actually say that you think prohibits abortion?

Taking it out of the context of how it was actually understood is pure sophistry.

Christian scripture prohibits murder and Christians have understood that to include abortion as long as we have existed. Pretty simple here.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

But understanding it to say something and what it actually says are two different things in this instance.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Taking it out of the context of how it was actually understood is pure sophistry.

Christian scripture prohibits murder and Christians have understood that to include abortion as long as we have existed. Pretty simple here.

The punishment for murder in the Old Testament is death. The punishment for causing a woman to miscarry (and against her will, not voluntarily as in abortion) is a fine. Not as simple as it seems, apparently.

Edit: it sound like you're saying that Christian scripture doesn't explicitly prohibit abortion, that this leap is an inference on your part, and that you defend this leap by saying that there's a long-standing tradition of making it. This doesn't exactly equate with "Christian scripture prohibits abortion."

 

[columbus]

I say murder because I feel it is murder under OT law.

But anybody who reads the OT can see that it isn't. To use your catch-phrase, "Opinion noted, and rejected" because I can read the Bible.

I consider the fertilized egg to be a human being.

So do I. So does everyone who stayed awake during elementary biology class. "Life cycle of a Primate" is settled science.

Killing that unborn human being is murder, the way I see it.

Not all homicides are murder. My real mom would have died without a surgical abortion.
Frankly, I am a pretty hardcore ProLifer. I oppose capital punishment, preemptive war, environmental degradation, and every other way people choose death for other people. Few people in this country are nearly as hardcore about it as I am. But which homicides qualify as murder is a very subjective issue.

I don't think OT law specifically mentions abortion because it is interpreted as I have interpreted it.

Based on what? Not Scripture, that's certain. Because I have read it. And I have a cursory "laymans" understanding of the culture of the day. Humans weren't considered alive if they didn't breathe. It's a primitive understanding, but it is all they had.

I believe God sees an unborn child the same way he sees me or you, as far as being a human is concerned.

So do I. But it still isn't in Scripture. You are adding your own opinions about morality to the Bible.

On the other hand, divorce rules are definitely in Scripture. Jesus was rather clear about that one. Why do Christians get so much more upset about something like abortion, which isn't Scriptural, than divorce, which decidedly is Scriptural. Not just from some human claiming to speak for God either, it's from Jesus Himself.
Why the disparity?
Tom

 

[Mister Emu]

But understanding it to say something and what it actually says are two different things in this instance.

The only way to know what it "actually says" is to know how it was understood by the creator and the intended audience. The only thing that matters about language is how it is intended to be understood. Writing is a method to create common understanding using symbols. Without the understanding the words are literally meaningless.

As an extreme example, consider that the phrase "the eagle has landed" in no way refers to a bird of prey, but rather, the meaning comes from an understanding of mid 20th century American space exploration.

The punishment for murder in the Old Testament is death. The punishment for causing a woman to miscarry (and against her will, not voluntarily as in abortion) is a fine. Not as simple as it seems, apparently.

I'm fairly sure the thread title and original post ask why Christians believe there is a scriptural basis for condemnation of abortion.

Edit: it sound like you're saying that Christian scripture doesn't explicitly prohibit abortion, that this leap is an inference on your part, and that you defend this leap by saying that there's a long-standing tradition of making it. This doesn't exactly equate with "Christian scripture prohibits abortion."

In the same way it wouldn't "exactly equate" with 'Christian scripture prohibits bombing orphanages.' Would you have that same argument with me?

Again the only meaning these words have is found in how the ancient authors intended them and how the intended audience received them.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Taking it out of the context of how it was actually understood is pure sophistry.

Christian scripture prohibits murder and Christians have understood that to include abortion as long as we have existed. Pretty simple here.

I'd say that it's you taking scripture out of context - the one you keep leaning on here - "Thou shalt not kill." When the context of the remainder of the Bible is restored, we see that whatever those words mean, it isn't that you aren't to kill, where the god of the Christian Bible repeatedly commands genocides. Here's some of that restored context:

[1] Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests - "Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel."(Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

[2] Kill Witches - "You should not let a sorceress live. "(Exodus 22:17 NAB)

[3] Kill Homosexuals - "If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

[4] Kill Fortunetellers - "A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death." (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

[5] Death for Hitting Mom or Dad - "Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death."(Exodus 21:15 NAB)

[6] Death for Cursing Parents - "All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense." (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

[7] Death for Adultery - "If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death." (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

[8] Death for Fornicating Daughters of Priests - "A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death." (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

[9] Death to Followers of Other Religions - "Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed." (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

[10] Kill Nonbelievers - "They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman." (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

[11] Kill False Prophets - "If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through." (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

[12] Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night - "But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst." (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)

[13] Kill disobedient sons (Deuteronomy 21:18-21)

[14] Kill those who work on the Sabbath (Exodus 35:2)

[15] Kill blasphemers (Leviticus 24:16)​

Also, as has been noted, the Bible doesn't consider abortion to be killing. Return that context to "Thou shalt not kill" and we see that the scripture you chose doesn't apply to abortion.

In the same way it wouldn't "exactly equate" with 'Christian scripture prohibits bombing orphanages.' Would you have that same argument with me?

I would. If the scriptures don't explicitly forbid the practice, then they don't explicitly forbid the practice. They do say this:

• "Happy shall be he that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones." - Psalms 137:9

If you don't consider that proper counsel regarding how to view bombing orphanages, you'll have to turn to another resource to know that that is wrong. For me, it's my conscience. For you, it seems to be church doctrine whether rooted in scripture or not.

Have you noticed how few non-Christians use the Christian Bible as a moral authority? It would not be inconsistent to fail to recognize the existence of any god, but to recognize that a particular source contained sage moral advice.

But that's not the case with most of us. We find that biblical morality commands or condones things that most people would consider immoral as the scripture above illustrates, and neglects to make moral pronunciations that we consider bedrock.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'm fairly sure the thread title and original post ask why Christians believe there is a scriptural basis for condemnation of abortion.

Yep. And I think it's telling that you haven't actually given one yet.

In the same way it wouldn't "exactly equate" with 'Christian scripture prohibits bombing orphanages.' Would you have that same argument with me?

No, because it would be bizarre to assume, without other supporting information, that "you shall not murder" means "you shall not murder except by these particular methods."

OTOH, we have to ask what sorts of killing they considered "murder." Did they include killing foreigners? Women? Kings (maybe the killing of a king transcended mere murder)? Battlefield deaths? Sacking a city after a battle?

Again the only meaning these words have is found in how the ancient authors intended them and how the intended audience received them.

And for that, we go to sources from that group in that period.

In Numbers 3, we see that the count of all people in the tribes of Israel only included males over 1 month old and didn't include females at all.

In Exodus 21-25, we see that causing a miscarriage by assaulting a pregnant woman does not receive the punishment for murder (a mere fine, in an era when the punishment for murder was death).

The Talmud also makes it clear that a fetus is not considered a living being until it is born/breathes:

Turning to talmudic sources, the Mishnah asserts the following: “If a woman is having difficulty in giving birth [and her life is in danger], one cuts up the fetus within her womb and extracts it limb by limb, because her life takes precedence over that of the fetus. But if the greater part was already born, one may not touch it, for one may not set aside one person’s life for that of another.”

Rabbi Yom Tov Lippman Heller, known as Tosafot Yom Tov, in his commentary on this passage in the Mishnah, explains that the fetus is not considered a nefesh until it has egressed into the air of the world and, therefore, one is permitted to destroy it to save the mother’s life. Similar reasoning is found in Rashi’s commentary on the talmudic discussion of this mishnaic passage, where Rashi states that as long as the child has not come out into the world, it is not called a living being, i.e., nefesh. Once the head of the child has come out, the child may not be harmed because it is considered as fully born, and one life may not be taken to save another.

The Mishnah elsewhere states: “If a pregnant woman is taken out to be executed, one does not wait for her to give birth; but if her pains of parturition have already begun [lit. she has already sat on the birth stool], one waits for her until she gives birth.” One does not delay the execution of the mother in order to save the life of the fetus because the fetus is not yet a person (Heb. nefesh), and judgments in Judaism must be promptly implemented. The Talmud also explains that the embryo is part of the mother’s body and has no identity of its own, since it is dependent for its life upon the body of the woman. However, as soon as it starts to move from the womb, it is considered an autonomous being (nefesh) and thus unaffected by the mother’s state. This concept of the embryo being considered part of the mother and not a separate being recurs throughout the Talmud and rabbinic writings.

The Fetus in Jewish Law | My Jewish Learning

... so that was the perspective of the people that the bulk of the Bible was addressed to.

... and even if the Christians prohibited abortion early on (a claim you haven't actually supported yet, BTW), it's still the perspective we have to assume was shared by the writer and intended recipient of the text... with the exception of portions of the Bible that were addressed to non-Jews - for those, we'd need to look at the culture and assumptions of those cases separately - but IIRC, almost all of the discussions of murder happen in the parts that were addressed to - and written by - Jews.

So it seems your assumptions are completely off-base and that abortion isn't actually prohibited by scripture. You haven't given any actual scripture to back up your claim, just an assumption that the Bible authors meant "murder" to include "abortion," but I just showed that this assumption was incorrect. Do you have anything else?

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

The only way to know what it "actually says" is to know how it was understood by the creator and the intended audience.

But given how often pregnant women and infants die in the bible, why pretend that the authors really cared about either? Genealogies don't even include all the kids, just the Plot Important ones (and not even then do all the names get their own stories). Most of the people in the bible, "potential" or otherwise, are just redshirts to be killed off when the plot demands.

[5] Death for Hitting Mom or Dad - "Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death."(Exodus 21:15 NAB)

[6] Death for Cursing Parents - "All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense." (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

Exactly. I can't take any pro-"child" thing seriously when it demands bratty kids get killed off, you know, the ones that actually exist.

 

[Mister Emu]

I'd say that it's you taking scripture out of context - the one you keep leaning on here - "Thou shalt not kill."

The one I keep leaning on? I'd recommend asking what I'm talking about before going off.There is more than one verse that talks about murder/murderers.

I would.

Good for you, there isn't much left to discuss then; have fun with that.

Yep. And I think it's telling that you haven't actually given one yet.

I did, you merely reject the one characterization of murder while accepting the vast majority my other ones. Also, I must have been too opaque in my response. Bringing up the Talmud and Jewish interpretation of Jewish law is without merit in regards to what Christians said in Christian scripture. Christian scripture in several instances brazenly disregards long standing Jewish understanding of the law, labor on the sabbath. In others, it flatly denigrates it, i.e. divorce. In others it replaces or removes broad swathes such as the dietary restrictions.

No, because it would be bizarre to assume, without other supporting information, that "you shall not murder" means "you shall not murder except by these particular methods."

Or because you aren't invested in the idea of bombing orphanages not being classed murder. Either way, you agree with me in principle that specific versions of a type of action not being singled out isn't grounds for dismissing as not prohibited.

OTOH, we have to ask what sorts of killing they considered "murder."

I agree wholly. We need to know what the authors of Christian scripture meant when they wrote or referenced murder. Unfortunately, we weren't gifted with a comprehensive list, nor can we ask directly what the authorial intent was. What we can do is examine the reaction by the community that was the intended recipient. Something we see is that within the Christian community we get condemnation of abortion from the first century. Christians understood Christian scripture to prohibit abortion, and that is all that needs to be said.

And for that, we go to sources from that group in that period.

Then why do you assiduously avoid the Christian period and Christian people and our historical response to our scripture?

... and even if the Christians prohibited abortion early on (a claim you haven't actually supported yet, BTW)

Are you questioning my claim that the tradition of understanding murder in Christian scripture to encompass abortion goes back to the Didache?

You haven't given any actual scripture to back up your claim, just an assumption that the Bible authors meant "murder" to include "abortion," but I just showed that this assumption was incorrect.

Pfft. All you've shown that non-Christian interpretation of pre-Christian law considered abortion allowable. If you want to discuss if and why Jews care(d) about abortion, go for it.

Do you have anything else?

Do you have anything relevant? Or can you just go ahead and concede that there has always, that is as long as Christians have existed, been an understanding within the Christian community that when the Christian scriptures say or reference murder they include abortion.

But given how often pregnant women and infants die in the bible, why pretend that the authors really cared about either?

That is a whole 'nother can of worms.

 

[Sleeppy]

Side note:

Doesn't everyone care about abortion?