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Featured Why do Christians care so much about abortion?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by columbus, Sep 3, 2017.

  1. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

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    I oppose elective abortion. I even get a bit emotional about it.
    That's entirely based on my personal morality, science, and secular humanism.
    I also realize that many Christians base their morality on humanism. I am glad that so many Christians don't base their morality on the codes and beliefs of ancient people.
    I am mainly talking to the Christians who do consider their moral code and worldview "Bible Based".

    I am also talking to 1st world westerners, the challenges faced by people in other places are dramatically different.

    That all said.
    Why do modern Christians care so much about abortion?

    There's nothing in Scripture particularly opposing feticide. I expect that the authors wouldn't particularly have a problem with it. This is for several reasons.
    For one, it didn't happen much. Children were an economically valuable gift. Especially boys, and they had no way to know the gender of a child before birth. You could put a child to work before they much past toddling, and nobody expected the parents to provide healthcare or education or anything. Children weren't the burden that they are in the modern world.

    Abortion wasn't safe and secret. Most techniques were almost as dangerous to the mother as to the child.

    Children weren't considered people. Neither were women really. By the primitive understanding of the day, adult male members of the tribe were people. They planted a seed in a (female) vessel. That seed remained their property, or chattel, until he became a person or she was sold or married off.
    Also, by the primitive understanding of the Bible authors, fetuses weren't alive. Alive meant "draws breath". Until a fetal human drew his/her first breath, s/he wasn't alive by the standards of the day. So even the Commandment "Don't Murder" wouldn't apply, even if there were a law making feticide murder. Which there wasn't.
    We certainly don't have one now, in the USA.
    The bottom line is this:
    Abortion is not a moral issue according to Scripture. It just isn't. Abortion, feticide, isn't mentioned and the authors of Scripture wouldn't have had a problem with it. Based on their understanding and worldview.

    So why do modern Bible based Christians?
    Tom
     
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  2. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    You are correct with most of that. I went to a bunch of Jewish sites when we were debating this in the past.

    They all said abortion was not forbidden in the past, nor to this day (except perhaps with fundamentalist groups' modern ideas on abortion).

    In fact there is a verse where if a husband suspects his wife has had an affair while he was off somewhere, he takes her to the priests, whom make her drink a concoction, and if she aborts, she is guilty.

    They also noted, as you said, that a fetus isn't "human" until it breaches and takes a breath. Technically they could be aborted right up to birth.

    And if you think about it - they could also kill a child before his 12 th birthday.

    Both Hebrews and Christians killed pregnant women, thus aborting their fetuses.

    And we get the dashing babies against rocks verses, etc.

    *
     
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  3. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    Why do Evangelical Christians care so much about abortion? According to Frank Schaeffer, the reason Evangelical Christians care so much about abortion comes down to one man -- Jerry Falwell. Schaeffer is the son of Francis Schaeffer, the theologian, and he was prominent in Evangelical leadership circles around the time of Roe v. Wade,

    Schaeffer tells the following story. Prior to Roe v. Wade, Evangelical leaders tended to see abortion as a secular issue, or a matter of individual conscience, or -- at most -- as permissible under some circumstances. Shortly after Roe v. Wade, however, Jerry Falwell came up with the idea that abortion could be turned into a valuable cause for Evangelicals.

    Schaeffer, who was privy to some of the discussions about abortion among the leadership, portrays Falwell as motivated by a desire to unify Evangelicals and -- just as important to Falwell -- make money off the issue. I recall Schaeffer also sees the anti-abortion stance of Evangelicals as rooted in a fear of women's sexuality.

    Schaeffer left Evangelicalism over issues he had with what he saw as its corruption and extremism, of which the stance it took on abortion was a part of.
     
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  4. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

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    Then there is the Heaven/ Hell judgment aspects.

    If an innocent child goes straight to Heaven, which is the usual interpretation, why would a parent risk giving birth? Abort the baby and s/he goes straight to God, no risk that s/he will do or believe something that is Judged unacceptable by a God.

    It's the perfect Christian parenting technique, if the goal is to get your child into Heaven. If that's not the goal of Christian parenting, then what is?
    Tom
     
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  5. Labourwave

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    Christians seem to have more of an idealist conception of life and don't see life as a continuous process like science would imply.
     
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  6. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    As Sunstone pointed out, it's largely a symbolic issue; political propaganda.
    I don't see Christians up in arms over war, wealth or the death penalty.
     
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  7. Hammerheart

    Hammerheart Well-Known Member

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    They've been told to by the conservative party. The "religious right" exists as a means lf manipulation, Christianity is used to impart conservative political beliefs into its followers, sort of a modern version of "Deus vult!". Republicans want a workforce, a higher population and they fear that abortion will threaten this.
     
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  8. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    I agree... and I'd go so far as to say that the whole anti-abortion movement makes no sense unless we view it as about controlling women's sexuality, not saving fetuses.

    There's no real effort to reduce miscarriages. There's no support for measures to reduce abortions that don't involve hurting or condemning the woman who has had what they view as "improper" sex. At its core, it's about hurting and punishing women.
     
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  9. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    I think that's very true. But don't discount the motives of at least some of the leaders -- abortion is a money maker for them.
     
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  10. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    And yet that didn't stop biblical authors from saying you could kill off bratty kids.

    They are economically valuable nonpersons that weren't burdens?

    They also want to make sure white babies outnumber nonwhite babies.

    If brown people have lots of kids, they are filthy and breeding like rabbits, a danger to humanity. If white people have lots of kids, they are defending White Christianity from the godless heathens.
     
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  11. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    I'm personally against abortion except to save a women's life, but I simply am not willing to try and force my belief onto a woman who is pregnant. Therefore, I'm on both side's dung list.
     
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  12. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Greased up & ready for action!
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    Have pro-abortion types (like me) also been told to hold this position by the "liberal party"?
    It seems facile to dis an entire group's views this way.
     
  13. idav

    idav Being
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    That's where I am at too, plus harassing teenage girls while the teenage boys get a free pass isn't the answer either.
     
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  14. It Aint Necessarily So

    It Aint Necessarily So Well-Known Member
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    I see it as a wedge issue intended to agitate Christians and motivate them to get out and vote Republican. How many Trump voters did so based on the single issue that they didn't want Hillary choosing the last Supreme Court nominee or the next?

    The Republicans would be as horrified if the Court reversed Roe v Wade as they were when the Cold War ended and when Obama took the lead in the 2008 Democratic primaries. They need their heffalumps.
     
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  15. It Aint Necessarily So

    It Aint Necessarily So Well-Known Member
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    I have no opinion regarding whether any given woman chooses abortion. If I were a woman, I wouldn't want one, but might get one anyway. As a man. my opinion is limited to who should decide whether an abortion occurs or not: The church using the power of the state, or the potential mother?

    No brainer there.

    For those that prefer that the state make the choice, imagine that rather than forbidding abortion, the state insisted on it.
     
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  16. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    I agree.
     
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  17. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

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    @gottalovemoses
    I'm a nontheistic ProLifer myself. I vehemently oppose feticide when there is an option.
    What do you think?
    Tom
     
  18. gottalovemoses

    gottalovemoses Im mad as Hell!

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    what on earth is feticide?
     
  19. gottalovemoses

    gottalovemoses Im mad as Hell!

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    this thread is 6 years old! come on. lets start a new one.
     
  20. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

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    Abortion. Killing a fetus deliberately.
    Tom
     
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