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Featured Why do Christians Believe Jesus is the Messiah?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by SearchingForGod, Apr 19, 2017.

  1. SearchingForGod

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    I've been looking at Jewish stances on the requirements of the Messiah (here is what I read), and from what I've read, Jesus did not fulfill these requirements. So why do Christians claim that he is the Messiah? I am not coming from an offensive standpoint, I am genuinely curious.
     
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  2. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity simple man
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    You are not getting the whole picture. No, Jesus did not fulfill them in his time period. The church is intended to fulfill them. Only when everything is fulfilled is he verified to be the messiah. Therefore Jews naturally do not recognize him. Christians recognize him through faith. This is all outlined in the book Hebrews. Can you know the future? No. You can, however believe in it. You can believe, and you can act on your belief. You can invest your life. Why? Well perhaps you know someone who shows you that the future is real. Otherwise you have no reason to invest your life.
     
  3. SearchingForGod

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    Hold on, so is it through the teachings of Jesus that a Messianic period would come about? That is to say, if we followed the teachings and ways of Jesus, then everything would be fulfilled and he would, thus, be proved to be the Messiah?
     
  4. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity simple man
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    It is for you to decide. You choose what to do with your life, don't you?

    If you believe that then that is what you believe. If you do not then it isn't. You are talking about two different universes. In one you are a believer, and in another you are not. You have the choice.
     
  5. wizanda

    wizanda Hairy doesn't mean scary;beard doesn't mean weird
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    The requirements the Jews have, and what is actually first specified within the text are not the same....

    See the Jews only want the reward at the end, and still don't even accept what they were even cut off for.... Their Rabbis have made up teachings to cover up what the Tanakh really prophesied.
    Not from a Christian perspective; yet someone who is interested in getting to the bottom of it.... There are numerous prophecies that had to be fulfilled before the Messianic age can take affect.

    You see in the Messianic age, there will no longer be anyone on this planet who doesn't know God; so how do you remove those who are fake, especially mockers and scoffers?

    Make something highly complex, appear silly on the outside....

    So this is why Jews don't see it, as they're to busy showing how the silly bits are wrong, that they've missed loads of context. :innocent:
     
  6. outlawState

    outlawState Orthodox Hardline Protestant

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    First some Jews believe that Jesus is the messiah. Jews for Jesus: Sharing Our Faith in Jesus as Messiah to our Jewish People

    Secondly Jews confuse the kingdom of God with the absence of sinners. It is possible to know of God's kingdom in an elementary sense, but reject his righteousness and continue in sin. As Jesus said, the wheat will grow with the chaff till the harvest time. The "messianic age" so termed is not with observable signs, or necessarily characterized by a prevalent absence of sin on the part of those who refuse to believe. "When asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The kingdom of God will not come with observable signs. 21Nor will people say, ‘Look, here it is,’ or ‘There it is.’ For you see, the kingdom of God is in your midst.” Luke 17;20

    Thirdly the Jews misinterpret the prophecies. Some say Jesus fulfilled 353 prophecies. AccordingtotheScriptures.org :: 353 Prophecies Fulfilled in Jesus Christ
     
  7. omega2xx

    omega2xx Well-Known Member

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    He certainly did fulfill many during His incarnation. The church was not born in Bethlehem and it can't make atonement for the sins of th people.

    The Messianic prophecies Jesus fulfilled,k make Him the Messiah.

    Not true. We recognize Him through fulfilled prophecies.

    Where?

    WE can know some of it.


    Ps 22:17b - They divided My garments and for My clothing they cast lots.

    Jn 19:24 - So they said to one another, "Let us not tear it, but cast lots for it, to decide whose it shall be"; this was to fulfill the Scripture, They divided My outer garments among them, and for My clothing they cast lots.
     
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  8. Rival

    Rival Noachide Fundamentalist Pro-Semite
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    Can you please tell us how the people who were given the scripture, who read Hebrew, who attend Yeshivos and spend their entire lives steeped in Judaism misinterpret their own prophecies? Yet some goy can come along and tell them what they really mean?

    What a load of crap.
     
    #8 Rival, Apr 20, 2017
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  9. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    I took a three-evening seminar with a Christian theologian about 20 years ago, and in the last session he shocked me when he said that Jesus could not be the Messiah since he didn't fulfill all of the prophecies, although he believed he likely would with his 2nd coming.

    As for me, I really don't get into this. If there is one to come, fine; if not, that's fine too.
     
  10. ronandcarol

    ronandcarol Member
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    I didn't click and read what you posted, I just needed to respond and say that as this world becomes more and more agreeable on what is OK to believe and that all people can worship and believe 'together', it is becoming a very slippery slope. There is ONLY ONE TRUE God that deserves our worship and praise. There is no other! All other faiths and religions have their 'stance' on why and who, but there is truly only one that is now living and reining as our only true Lord and Redeemer.
    ronandcarol
     
  11. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    Brick has some truth. Reductionism eventually becomes extinct and that was understood in evolutionary terms thousands of years ago which in evolutionary terms is but a moment. Evolution is independent of linear chronos time this not reductively definable literally that's the fallacy and some truth in science. We all tend to have fallacy and some truth. Thats normal , what's is not normal are the writers of the bible in general. On could say Jesus is the savior from the stupidity of reductionism, which overran ChristiAnity over time. Reductionism is heAding for extinction in application to nature. Its like talking dimasaurs facinating!!!!
     
    #11 David T, Apr 20, 2017
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  12. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    Folks believe in all sorts of things. None of it need be logical. From my POV you are right. Without giving some special meaning to what is written in the OT, Jesus was not the Messiah they were looking for. Mathew puts forth a lot of effort to connect Jesus to the OT though.
     
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  13. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity simple man
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    As I pointed out before in the gospels to 'Fulfill' means to imitate. Jesus imitates many of the things that happen to Israel. Like Israel he is called out of Egypt. Like Israel he rides on a colt. He makes these demonstrations just like Jeremiah who lies on his side for many days in imitation of the siege against Israel. So when you try to tell me that Jesus is fulfilling predictions you show ignorance of the prophetic life Jesus is leading. Your claim we can logically prove anything about Jesus is an empty one. Choose him on the merit of what he says, but you cannot even do that if you don't know what he is saying.
     
  14. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Or, the life of Jesus is fashioned decades after the fact with Hebrew Scripture in mind as "prooftext." Isaiah 7:14 is a perfect example of this.

    Jews do not accept Jesus as the Messiah simply because there's no 'there' there.
     
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  15. Rival

    Rival Noachide Fundamentalist Pro-Semite
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    And no virgins in Isaiah 7:14. Oh well. Better luck next time.
     
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  16. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Believe me, Christians pay little or no attention to the old Jewish requirement. To them it's a fait accompli that one need no longer bother with: "Jesus is the Messiah and that's that." It's like a lot of things in the Christian religion: No need to bother questioning X, just take it on faith that it's true. And Christians do this time and again because it makes being a Christian that much easier.

    .
     
    #16 Skwim, Apr 20, 2017
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  17. Theweirdtophat

    Theweirdtophat Well-Known Member

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    I often wondered. It never said that the Messiah would be the Son of God or God himself. Or that there would be a second coming.

    He is in line of King David. Mary is supposed to be his mother but she's not in line of King David but Joseph is. That's what I find confusing. If Joseph is not his real father, how can he be both in line of King David and the son of God? He can't be both. He has to be one or the other.

    I think it's much more likely that he's the descendent of King David. I don't believe he was God but I believe he knew things others didn't know. Knew certain secrets and tried to change things for the better.

    What I find strange is the Messiah is also God. So the Messiah they were waiting for...was God all along? Just in human form? Isn't God sort of a savior anyway if he saved them from Egypt?

    Why were people waiting for a Messiah if the Messiah was there to begin with? God didn't even have to be in human form. He's shown himself to humans before.
     
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  18. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity simple man
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    Its debatable whether that is intended as a proof text or simply a reminder not to be idolatrous, but as a proof text it certainly falls short.

    The NT authors appear to borrow imagery of 'Virgin Israel' as used in Jeremiah and Isaiah. "I will build you up again, and you, Virgin Israel, will be rebuilt..." (NIV Jer 34:1) This virgin is a reference to the churches staying focused and not getting mired in power struggles. There's also a comparison between the church and a virgin in the book Revelation, which is an apocalyptic book in the NT.
     
  19. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    I'm honestly not sure how familiar you are with midrash and prooftext. So, Joel M. Hoffman writes:

    As it happens, Isaiah 7:14 is compatible with a virgin birth, because a young woman could be (and often was) a virgin. But, more interestingly, I don’t think it matters.

    The reason it doesn’t matter is that a “proof text” — that is, a scriptural citation that reinforces some particular point — isn’t meant to prove something in the modern, scientific way that we usually now consider proof. Rather, the proof text just has to match.

    Certainly, the parthenos (“virgin”) of the LXX translation of Isaiah matches the virgin birth in Matthew. And, almost as certainly, Matthew knew that his proof text only worked in Greek. He didn’t care. A proof text isn’t scientific. It’s religious.​
     
  20. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity simple man
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    I did not realize 'Proof text' was a scholarly term and was just taking it for how it sounded. Thanks for pointing out the definition! I do not disagree with its use if taken to mean that. I was confused in taking 'proof text' to mean a 'text that is a logical proof'.
     
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