1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Why do Christians accept original sin but not collective responsibility?

Discussion in 'Interfaith Discussion' started by Epic Beard Man, Aug 24, 2018.

  1. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    4,649
    Ratings:
    +885
    Religion:
    Christian
    Hard to reconcile that view with the Bible either new or Old testament
    Man sinned. Sin and death entered the world the ground bore thorns
    but one would come someday who would wear the crown of thorns and redeem them, Jesus
    In itself not good but part of an overarching plan of God for His glory and salvation to those who believe
     
  2. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    4,649
    Ratings:
    +885
    Religion:
    Christian
    The bible has all men federally under sin with Adam
    and all believers federally under grace in Christ

    and yet there are examples of mistreatment of groups such as the drought in the days of David due to Saul's mistreatment of a ethnic group of people who the Jews made a deal with long before

    Still I am a child of immigrants and it seems a bit odd to make the complaint stick
    I do think the African-British-American trade swap that left millions of slaves in the US to eb mistreated was a sin as was much of the treatment of native americans. The early settlers had a high view of their rights and not high enough view of other's rights

    (People are sinners be they of the Trump of Clinton type. And yes the liberals including church liberals of the day did support slavery in Wilberforce time and the Democrats of Lincolns day were not helpful either. Trump? is a bit undimplomatic and sadly was a less worse choice than Hillary who struggled with honesty)
     
    #62 whirlingmerc, Aug 26, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2018
  3. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2013
    Messages:
    7,692
    Ratings:
    +3,565
    Religion:
    Agnostic-Monotheist
    "Federally?"
     
  4. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    4,649
    Ratings:
    +885
    Religion:
    Christian
    One person representing many

    Federal representation means one person representing many
    Adam - mankind
    Christ - those who trust in Him

    Believers are still responsible for actions both individuals and groups
    and must appear before the judgement seat of Christ.
     
  5. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    14,555
    Ratings:
    +2,414
    No, No one of us is guilty of Adam' sin. Only Adam is guilty of Adam's sin.
    Since Adam fathered us ' after ' he broke God's Law causing Adam too loose his physical perfection, then Adam passed down to us his acquired imperfection. We are only responsible for what we do, Not what Adam did.

    We can't help being born ' after ' Adam sinned.
    God's purpose is that we all be descendants of Adam and Eve.
    If God would have gotten rid of Adam and Eve we would Not have been born.
    That means we would Not have the opportunity to gain future everlasting life.
    The passing of time has allowed time for us to be born and think who we would like as Sovereign over us.
    Plus, the passing of time shows mankind can Not successfully govern himself without God's guidance.
     
  6. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    14,555
    Ratings:
    +2,414
    I can agree in the community responsibility under the Constitution of the Mosaic Law (Deuteronomy 21:1-9) that those people (as a group) were culpable in that they failed to bring Jesus to Justice. After all they had the Law.

    I find as individuals we will stand or appear before the Judgement Seat of Christ at the time of Matthew 25:31-33.
    At this soon coming ' time of separation ' on Earth the humble figurative ' sheep ' (verse 37) appear as individuals.
    That is also true of the individual haughty figurative ' goats ' who receive an adverse judgement while the ' sheep ' receive a favorable judgement, and the ' sheep' will be part of the humble meek who will inherit the Earth beginning with calendar Day One of Jesus' coming 1,000-year governmental rule over Earth.
     
  7. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    14,555
    Ratings:
    +2,414
    BIG answer: No, God did Not really say we inherit Adam's sin. Only Adam is guilty for Adam's sin.
    If we were guilty of Adam's sin then Jesus could Not pay that ransom price for us - Matthew 20:28.
     
  8. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2013
    Messages:
    7,692
    Ratings:
    +3,565
    Religion:
    Agnostic-Monotheist
    If such is true then are "believers" responsible for the actions of their brethren who do religious acts in the name of their lord? Is the phrase "am I my brother's keeper," true? If such is true, according to how you're phrasing it then it goes back to my hypothetical question as to why Christians as a whole do not take responsibility for the atrocities their brethren may do, but yet take responsibility in what Adam does? I forgot to add that when taking responsibility for what Adam does means in this context to believe in the idea of original sin. To believe one inherits the faculties of desire to transgress against God, because they believe they are endowed with the qualities and capabilities to do so.
     
  9. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2013
    Messages:
    7,692
    Ratings:
    +3,565
    Religion:
    Agnostic-Monotheist
    How are things that are virtuous and iniquitous passed down? From the act of Adam, in what mode are they passed down to us humans?
     
  10. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2013
    Messages:
    7,692
    Ratings:
    +3,565
    Religion:
    Agnostic-Monotheist
    Actually the opposite is true according to the following:

    Getting rid of original sin
    The only way a person can 'cleanse' their soul from sin is to:

    • accept that Christ's death on the cross atoned for this sin
    • accept that only God's grace can cure this sin
    • confess their sins and ask for forgiveness
    • be baptized
    Redemption
    In St Paul's letter to the Galatians, he wrote: "Christ has set us free; stand fast therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery". This conception of Redemption as freedom from bondage is crucial for Judeo-Christian thought.

    According to this source, St. Augustine said we transmit Adam's sin through sexual intercourse:

    St Augustine's theory
    St Augustine, who largely devised the theory of original sin, thought that original sin was transmitted from generation to generation through sexual intercourse. Augustine did not say exactly how this happened.

    BBC - Religions - Christianity: Original sin

    We are responsible for Adam's sin according to the above, because we are genetically born with this burden like a mother who passes down the genetic predisposition to a particular illness. Our moral predisposition is to commit wrong action based on the actions of Adam and Eve.
     
  11. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    14,555
    Ratings:
    +2,414
    Adam's imperfect leanings is his acquired trait that is passed down. Leanings toward wrongdoing.
    Adam's guilt is Not passed down to us. We are innocent of what Adam did.
    The opposite is a teaching of men outside of Scripture and Not scriptural, just taught as being Scripture.
     
  12. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2013
    Messages:
    7,692
    Ratings:
    +3,565
    Religion:
    Agnostic-Monotheist
    Behaviors are learned, not genetically passed down.

    You've already established this. If what you say is true and we are not responsible for what Adam did then Jesus' mission was meaningless.
     
  13. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    14,555
    Ratings:
    +2,414
    I am wondering how Jesus' mission could be meaningless because we can Not resurrect oneself or another.
    Jesus is given the resurrection power - Revelation 1:18 - to resurrect us.

    I find parents have to correct behaviors, so wrong leanings are passed down.
    No matter how hard we try we can Not stop sinning.
    If we could stop sinning we would Not die.
    Jesus' sinless life balanced the Scales of Justice for us so that we might live again.
    Jesus faithful death undid the wrong Adam did, thus freeing us from our inherited imperfection from Adam.
     
  14. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    4,649
    Ratings:
    +885
    Religion:
    Christian

    Believers are responsible period and the motives of the heart are known and judged, not merely the actions.
     
Loading...