1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Why do Christians accept original sin but not collective responsibility?

Discussion in 'Interfaith Discussion' started by Epic Beard Man, Aug 24, 2018.

  1. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2013
    Messages:
    6,651
    Ratings:
    +3,039
    Religion:
    Agnostic-Monotheist
    I want to credit @Ellen Brown for this idea

    Without regurgitating scripture, I'm curious in the Christian theology of original sin ergo, " the sins of the father" why do some Christians not take responsibility for ancestral actions but can take on the responsibility of the actions of Adam? For example many Christians regarding the issue of slavery and/or the termination of Native American lands or the mistreatment of others say:

    "I was not around back then"

    or

    "My family didn't own slaves"

    or

    "My ancestors may have done that but that was a long time ago."

    Why is it that you readily accept Adam's sin against God, who by all rights you can claim Adam as the progenitor of mankind, but choose to not accept the actions of your ethic ancestors to lands that did not belong to them or the mistreatment of people?

    Edit: Changed Thread Title
     
    #1 Epic Beard Man, Aug 24, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2018
    • Winner Winner x 2
    • Useful Useful x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • Creative Creative x 1
  2. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

    Joined:
    May 9, 2011
    Messages:
    6,462
    Ratings:
    +1,181
    It is different. People are only responsible for their own particular sins, not the sins of their grandfather or uncle, etc. When the scriptures refer to the human race being infected with Eve/Adam's sin it is not referring to their particular sin, it means that human nature itself is sinful, sin entered the world through the first humans.
     
    #2 InChrist, Aug 24, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2018
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2013
    Messages:
    6,651
    Ratings:
    +3,039
    Religion:
    Agnostic-Monotheist
    @InChrist I have to get report and later on at work when things calm I'll respond in kind.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  4. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2018
    Messages:
    3,568
    Ratings:
    +1,724


    Oh dear. I have reservations about the idea of Original Sin. I am extremely sorry, even ashamed for Slavery, and have often wondered how England, without violence, ended it there around 30 years before America. Europe did it before that. However, sadly Cuba STILL deals in slaves. (As of 2007)

    Will those nations who participated in slavery be punished? Sadly, I believe that much of the mentality that permitted it still exists. The best I can do is to stand against it. If you have better suggestions or desires, please state them?
     
  5. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2017
    Messages:
    2,552
    Ratings:
    +586
    Religion:
    Itiswhatitis
    We're born into the likeness of Adam. As Adam sinned before he had children; so his children are born with sinful natures. And as Adam was already doomed to die before he had children then we all must die also. Because we're made in his image.

    As for the things you're talking about. I believe that all of our ancestors have done things we could be ashamed of.
     
  6. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2014
    Messages:
    8,132
    Ratings:
    +2,271
    Religion:
    Pelagianism
    We Pelagians don't believe in original sin.
    As for ancestral guilt...well...I think certain nations are predisposed, genetically to be more dominant than others...but I think it's unfair to say we're supposed to pay for our ancestors' errors.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  7. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2018
    Messages:
    4,097
    Ratings:
    +2,167
    Religion:
    Sanathana Dharma [The Eternal Religion]
    Maybe if it had been written in the Bible to take responsibility for ancestral actions they would accept it
    Maybe this is what is meant in the Bible regarding original sin, but all Christians misinterpreted it so far

    But personally I do not believe in "original sin" interpretation Christians give. You unlearn responsibility
    I see it as a telltale to learn from. How karma works. Listen to your conscience, not to snakes or wives.
     
    #7 stvdv, Aug 24, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2018
  8. Windwalker

    Windwalker Integralist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2013
    Messages:
    7,868
    Ratings:
    +3,891
    Religion:
    Love, Light, and Life
    I think @InChrist raised a good point in how she framed this.

    Symbolically Adam's sin represents the "sin condition" of mankind. It is not so much about what his action of sin was, but that "all sin", which is the state of separation from the divine, our "natural state", can trace its origins back to a source. In looking at that point in which we "fell" from Grace, we can look towards a return to our Source from which we fell.

    As far as the sins of previous generations, which would be as myriad as all the stars in all the skies of all the universes out there, I would say everyone bears a responsibility for everyone who exists, and collectively has existed on this human journey of ours. To me, that is what the Christ represents, owning all the pain of this and holding it forward into the Divine Light. To what extent we can do that, is limited by how opened and surrendered to the Divine we are.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. lukethethird

    lukethethird Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    981
    Ratings:
    +397
    Religion:
    Xian
    We don't have to believe that there was any such thing as original sin, and why should we? We also don't have to believe that children are responsible for the sins of their 'fathers', and in a civilized society they are not.
     
    #9 lukethethird, Aug 24, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2018
  10. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2018
    Messages:
    3,568
    Ratings:
    +1,724
    Forgiveness: I hated the man who almost killed me and beat me several times a week. The anger and hatred poisoned my life in painful ways. Jesus spoke against lack of forgiveness. Years later, when the Mormons helped me to find forgiveness for him, I feel free. Not everything the Mormons did to me was wrong.

    And, in the Bible if we take joy for God punishing sinners, he will stop punishing them. Hmmm
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  11. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2005
    Messages:
    29,507
    Ratings:
    +5,451
    Religion:
    LDS Christian
    Well, I'm a Christian, and I don't believe in Original Sin. Maybe that has something to do with why I don't accept "collective responsibility" either.
     
    #11 Katzpur, Aug 24, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2018
    • Like Like x 3
  12. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2018
    Messages:
    3,568
    Ratings:
    +1,724
    I'm sorry. I have been trying to interpret what you are saying without success.

    So, what would satisfy you? What would settle your heart and mind and let you know that you have been heard and been given adequate compensation?
     
  13. dianaiad

    dianaiad Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2010
    Messages:
    2,503
    Ratings:
    +785
    Religion:
    LDS (the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints)
    Well, I'm with you, of course, in that I don't believe in 'original sin,' OR 'collective responsibility."

    However, "collective responsibility" (and that's bunk) seems to be a really handy bat for people to use against groups they don't like.

    I mean, really: everybody has ancestors who have done nasty things to other people, it's unavoidable.

    and blaming people for the sins of their forebears is as silly as basking in the accomplishments of famous ancestors.

    I mean, really; I have a fun family tree...but for every Mayflower colonist and US President I can mention, I also have scoflaws and miscreants galore. All of us do.

    But I am not a pioneer or a president...or a bank robber or murderer. I'm me, and I didn't oppress anybody, enslave anybody, or profit from those who did.

    Collective responsibility?

    Only if one is physically a member of a mob that does something nasty. You know, like that group of 200 men in black face that attacked and murdered two (as they thought) unarmed men? True, only one or two of 'em actually killed the prisoners, but the REST of that mob was definitely 'collectively responsible."

    but their descendants aren't.
     
  14. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2018
    Messages:
    4,097
    Ratings:
    +2,167
    Religion:
    Sanathana Dharma [The Eternal Religion]
    I did not know about Pelagius. That he does not believe in "original sin" makes sense to me. And is in sync with my spiritual view.
    Islam also does not believe in original sin. So it seems that slowly God gives us small parts of new information, like updates

    With microsoft computers I don't like all these updates, but in spiritual life I welcome good updates
    People who cling too much to their religion might miss out on important information

    I think many people are too scared to consider updates
    Too scared for hell to think for themselves
     
    #14 stvdv, Aug 25, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2018
  15. Duke_Leto

    Duke_Leto Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2015
    Messages:
    462
    Ratings:
    +332
    Religion:
    Zensunni
    Slightly off-topic, but have you considered installing Linux?
     
  16. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2018
    Messages:
    4,097
    Ratings:
    +2,167
    Religion:
    Sanathana Dharma [The Eternal Religion]
    Thanks for the idea. I do like windows, just don't need the updates (never had a virus in 16 years with XP w/o updates). I also have Linux installed.
     
  17. Windwalker

    Windwalker Integralist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2013
    Messages:
    7,868
    Ratings:
    +3,891
    Religion:
    Love, Light, and Life
    I had said in my post above, "I would say everyone bears a responsibility for everyone who exists, and collectively has existed on this human journey of ours". To clarify what that means, it does not mean that realization can now be weaponized by one group to beat another group with. There are no "groups" when it comes to the sins of the world. They are just as guilty as the group they point their fingers at, and in pointing that finger, they are guilty too! :)

    What I mean is that I believe everything everyone does for both positive and negative affects the whole. What happened in our collective (not this group vs that group) histories does in fact carry forward to everyone of the future, just as our own sins carry forward to the rest of humanity as a whole. We inherit what came before us, for good and bad. We are affected by what happens through others. Think of it like inheriting gene traits, except at a cosmic level happening instantaneously in all directions, up, down, forward, and backwards, future and past.

    Where our responsibility lays is as a participant in this grand cosmic soup that spreads to ourselves and others through our own attitudes and actions, with either positive or negative energies. We aren't just isolated little islands that have no influence at all. To look back at actions and attitudes of the past, as well as the present and take a certain amount of ownership for them, which means to acknowledge that the potentialities we see in those we find abhorrent, also exist in us, is a positive step forward to making the choice to influence in the other direction. I have "sin" but I choose goodness instead.

    As far as "original sin" goes. I see that as a literary device, a mythology, that offers a way to understand ourselves symbolically. It's an origin myth about the human condition. Taking anything like this as a literal fact, like a scientific reality, misses the point of the story. It is about the human choice to choose good over evil, to choose Light over darkness, to choose God over isolation and separation. Making it about technical matters, like Augustine seems to have done, is to take that finger pointing at the moon, and jamming it into our eyes.
     
  18. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2013
    Messages:
    6,651
    Ratings:
    +3,039
    Religion:
    Agnostic-Monotheist

    Sorry for the delay I have time now.

    Now, let's take a look at original sin's concept:

    "According to Wikipedia, original sin is belief of the state of sin in which humanity exists since the fall of man, stemming from Adam and Eve's rebellion in Eden, namely the sin of disobedience in consuming the forbidden fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil This condition has been characterized in many ways, ranging from something as insignificant as a slight deficiency, or a tendency toward sin yet without collective guilt, referred to as a "sin nature", to something as drastic as total depravity or automatic guilt of all humans through collective guilt."

    According to this definition human nature didn't begin to sin until Adam performed one simple act which caused the generational inheritance of sin through the state of being of inherenting the "will to transgress against God." Although you say our sins are own, Christians still adopted the idea that human beings inherit the nature to transgress against God and accept that. Here is the logic:

    1) Adam sinned

    2) Adam committed one act

    3) Adam's progeny inherits the punishment that Adam has done.

    In this case if Christians willfully accept Adam's act which all humans thereafter have not done, why don't we inherit the actions of our ancestors that transgress against God and humanity?
     
  19. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2018
    Messages:
    3,568
    Ratings:
    +1,724


    Jesus referred to believers as sheep. If you have ever been around sheep, they are stupid, do odd things, and need help to stand if they are soaking wet if they are not sheared. Pretty apt.
     
  20. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2013
    Messages:
    6,651
    Ratings:
    +3,039
    Religion:
    Agnostic-Monotheist
    The thread really isn't about slavery it was something you mentioned that spurred the idea of this thread. You see, a collective may recognize some sort of responsibility given enough influence, in this case Christianity and the doctrine of original sin has influenced a lot of Christians to take upon the burden of Adam's sin. The problem with this, is if this doctrine holds true then how is it I am accountable for Adam's sin as well as my own but not of my ancestors who collectively transgressed against the commandments of God?

    That is why I brought up slavery and/or the termination of Native American lands. In other words, you can take the responsibility of humankind's ancestor Adam, but not the individual ethnic ancestors who have also done wrong in the name of faith, race, religion, etc.
     
    • Like Like x 1
Loading...