Why do atheists talk to believers so much?

[Trailblazer]

I started this dialogue with @ wandering peacefully on another thread but it was brought to my attention that we were getting off topic for that thread so I am starting a new thread.

@Trailblazer said:
"Mostly what I was wondering about is why “some atheists” spend as much time as they do talking about god and religion, if they have no interest in it. I am sure there are as many reasons as there are atheists. From talking to as many atheists as I have as long as I have I know that some atheists would like to believe in God if they had “what they consider” to be sufficient evidence that God exists, but most atheists are not really that concerned about whether god exists or not, or so it seems. Maybe they have given up that there will ever be sufficient evidence and maybe some do not care."

No, there are not as many reasons why atheists talk about religion and gods as there are atheists. There is a very limited amount of reasons compared to the amount of religions.

That is probably true. There are only a limited amount of reasons atheists talk about religion and gods compared to the number of reasons religious people talk about religions.

You wonder and I explained.

1. They do not want religions ruling the planet.
2. They do not want theocracies ruling them.
3. They do not want religious beliefs to be behind laws we all must follow.

I can understand why atheists would not want these things as I would not want these things either, but I do not understand how talking to people with religious beliefs would change these things if they were imminent. It would seem as if political involvement would be more likely to change these things.

4. They want religious doctrine followers to be able to see there are many different doctrines and beliefs and theirs is not the "truth".

Maybe you meant to say that theirs is not the only "truth" because other religions also have truth? I can agree with that because I believe that all religions have “some truth” to offer. However, it is logically impossible that everything that all religions teach is “the truth” because religions contradict each another.

5. They want smart people to put their brains into more beneficial uses leading to actions for both the believer and the rest of the planet and humanity.

If you mean more beneficial uses than just talking about beliefs I can agree with that. I believe that faith without works is dead. What would these actions be that would benefit the believer and the rest of humanity?

6. They want believers to see more of reality than the stories they see now.

That is rather vague. What part of reality do you think that believers are not seeing? Admittedly, one reason I talk to atheists is that I want them to see more of reality than the material world reality they see now because I do not believe this is the most important reality. I believe the spiritual reality is our true reality but that is a big subject, and it is based upon the premise that God exists and there is an afterlife (spiritual world).

7. "Some" atheists really care about the distress, strife, denial, delusions, self loathing, bigotry, self-doubt and wasted life they see "some" believers living through due to their beliefs and work hard to help them see they are only stories they are living for.

Yes, I know this is the motive for some atheists because they have told me so. I think these stories you refer to are from the Bible. Why is it that atheists cannot understand that there are “other religions” that are not Bible-based? Why is it that atheists cannot understand that perhaps the Bible has some truth in it and that the Bible has been misinterpreted by those who believe in it, namely Christians? It is unjust to blame God for the doctrines of the Church that arose out of councils who decided what the Bible means. What about all the other religions? I suppose that atheists have to say they are all stories made up by man if there is no god.

Of course if atheists saw some actual believable and clear evidence of gods they would believe it. But never since the dawn of modern homo sapien sapiens, has there ever been such evidence. Plenty of subjective stories and fanciful wishes, made up rules and doctrines, but no hard evidence no matter how hard religionists spin it.

For over five years now, I have been posting to atheists 24/7 on several forums and asking them what they would expect for evidence of God, but so far I have received no answer that makes any sense. God is not a material being so what kind of “hard evidence” could we ever have that proves that God exists? This expectation of objective evidence of God is completely illogical, and atheists don’t even realize how illogical it is.

If an omnipotent God exists, that God is the one who decides what kind of evidence it will provide to prove its existence to humans. This is logic 101 stuff. To expect any evidence other than what God provides is unreasonable. The only evidence that God has ever provided is the Messengers (Prophets) God sends who establish religions.

I do understand that some people cannot believe in God based upon the claims of a Messenger but I really do not understand why not, because there really is no other way that God could communicate messages to humanity, if that was what God wanted to do. I have asked atheists repeatedly how God could communicate messages to humanity in any way other than using Messengers. The only answer I have received is that God could communicate directly to everyone. But how is that any different from God communicating to a Messenger? Why should God communicate the same message to everyone, when God can instead communicate to one man who can write that message down and make it available to everyone?

I can understand why this would be problematic if the Messenger was just an ordinary man but the premise upon which my religion is based is that the Messengers of God are more than human. They have a divine mind and that is why they can receive and convey messages from God to man.

But I still must insist they do not speak with you because they are seeking a god or religion of any kind. Sure, some might be interested if there were one, but none of them are looking to believers steeped in predetermined dogmas to find one. Have you ever asked one atheist in 4 years of "conversations" if they are looking for God and have they asked you to show them the way?

You can only speak for yourself and other atheists you know personally. I know for a fact that many atheists are interested in knowing if there is a god because they told me so. Some are also interested in my religion and they researched it for themselves. I am not saying that they are going to believe it, but at least they are giving it a fair shot.

I can tell you for a fact that the reason they do not believe in it is because they do not like the “idea” of Messengers of God, but not one atheist has ever given me a good reason why God cannot and would not use a Messenger to represent Him and reveal a message to humanity. That is what I am still waiting for, a logical reason. To say that they cannot trust that a Messenger is from God is not a logical reason. That is just an emotional reason born out of fear of being wrong about the Messenger. But what if they are wrong and God does use Messengers to communicate?

Yes, as matter of fact, many atheists I have spoken with said that they are looking for God and asked me to show them the way. What do you think we discuss 24/7, the weather? Most of the atheists I talk to are not concerned about social or political issues, only about god.

 

[stvdv]

"Mostly what I was wondering about is why “some atheists” spend as much time as they do talking about god and religion, if they have no interest in it

Many religious people evangelize a lot. Part of evangelizing is trying to convert atheists into their religion, hence atheists spend a lot of time to explain when asked about God

More interesting question for a theist would be "Why do you talk to atheists so much?". Introspection for a theist might be more fruitful for the theist then evangelizing.

 

[Revoltingest]

What could possibly be more interesting than something
completely foreign to me, but so important to others?

 

[dfnj]

Many religious people evangelize a lot. Part of evangelizing is trying to convert atheists into their religion, hence atheists spend a lot of time to explain when asked about God

More interesting question for a theist would be "Why do you talk to atheists so much?". Introspection for you might be more fruitful for you then evangelizing.

I been friends with several evangelicals over the years. There something they do that really amazes me. When an evangelical gets someone else to buy into their belief system it reinforces the strength of their own convictions. It's almost as if evangelicals have the weakest possible faith where their own doubts are so strong that when someone else buys in they get get confirmation that maybe their doubts are not correct. It's a really awkward psychological way of being.

Atheists on the other hand are really strange lot also. Atheists tend to argue with theists under the idea that belief in God can only occur with evidence. The idea of having faith in something you cannot directly experience is just beyond the capabilities of their belief system.

Both groups share the conviction that their own opinions are facts. And people who have different opinions about existential issues are not to be respected. It's very sad. But it's all good in eyes of God.

 

[Audie]

It is a study in cultural anthropology

 

[blü 2]

Yo, Trailblazer!

I first started posting on a religious forum back when Creationism was on the rise and I was concerned and wanted to get my mind around what they were doing and who exactly was masterminding it. They were interesting times up to Dover (and if you haven't argued on line with YEC Karl Crawford, you've missed a singular and informative experience).

Then I found theology is a game with very simple rules that anyone can play, and since my online work keeps me close to a computer and routinely has times busy and idle, I've found it not only entertaining, but occasionally thought-provoking, so that it's greatly clarified my thinking on a range of subjects from religion to morality to meanings and priorities.

Those are questions that otherwise I rarely come across in my ordinary life.

Is there some psychological attraction there? It's likely, given that I was raised a Pisco (with no particular intensity, more as a matter of manners than of belief), and on the numerous occasions they've got into strife, have had a sense that they're my preferred team.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Not believing something is true (or parts of things) doesn't equal not having an interest. Religion suffuses cultural dialogue: Literature, politics, history, psychology, sociology. It's, imo, too big to ignore.

 

[LuisDantas]

Oh, I for one have a lot of interest in theism.

Not that I have the choice, mind you. It is difficult to be oblivious to fantastic claims with no factual support that are nonetheless continually presented as justification for various actions that affect us as well.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I started this dialogue with @ wandering peacefully on another thread but it was brought to my attention that we were getting off topic for that thread so I am starting a new thread.

@Trailblazer said:
"Mostly what I was wondering about is why “some atheists” spend as much time as they do talking about god and religion, if they have no interest in it. I am sure there are as many reasons as there are atheists. From talking to as many atheists as I have as long as I have I know that some atheists would like to believe in God if they had “what they consider” to be sufficient evidence that God exists, but most atheists are not really that concerned about whether god exists or not, or so it seems. Maybe they have given up that there will ever be sufficient evidence and maybe some do not care."

That is probably true. There are only a limited amount of reasons atheists talk about religion and gods compared to the number of reasons religious people talk about religions.

I can understand why atheists would not want these things as I would not want these things either, but I do not understand how talking to people with religious beliefs would change these things if they were imminent. It would seem as if political involvement would be more likely to change these things.

Maybe you meant to say that theirs is not the only "truth" because other religions also have truth? I can agree with that because I believe that all religions have “some truth” to offer. However, it is logically impossible that everything that all religions teach is “the truth” because religions contradict each another.

If you mean more beneficial uses than just talking about beliefs I can agree with that. I believe that faith without works is dead. What would these actions be that would benefit the believer and the rest of humanity?

That is rather vague. What part of reality do you think that believers are not seeing? Admittedly, one reason I talk to atheists is that I want them to see more of reality than the material world reality they see now because I do not believe this is the most important reality. I believe the spiritual reality is our true reality but that is a big subject, and it is based upon the premise that God exists and there is an afterlife (spiritual world).

Yes, I know this is the motive for some atheists because they have told me so. I think these stories you refer to are from the Bible. Why is it that atheists cannot understand that there are “other religions” that are not Bible-based? Why is it that atheists cannot understand that perhaps the Bible has some truth in it and that the Bible has been misinterpreted by those who believe in it, namely Christians? It is unjust to blame God for the doctrines of the Church that arose out of councils who decided what the Bible means. What about all the other religions? I suppose that atheists have to say they are all stories made up by man if there is no god.

For over five years now, I have been posting to atheists 24/7 on several forums and asking them what they would expect for evidence of God, but so far I have received no answer that makes any sense. God is not a material being so what kind of “hard evidence” could we ever have that proves that God exists? This expectation of objective evidence of God is completely illogical, and atheists don’t even realize how illogical it is.

If an omnipotent God exists, that God is the one who decides what kind of evidence it will provide to prove its existence to humans. This is logic 101 stuff. To expect any evidence other than what God provides is unreasonable. The only evidence that God has ever provided is the Messengers (Prophets) God sends who establish religions.

I do understand that some people cannot believe in God based upon the claims of a Messenger but I really do not understand why not, because there really is no other way that God could communicate messages to humanity, if that was what God wanted to do. I have asked atheists repeatedly how God could communicate messages to humanity in any way other than using Messengers. The only answer I have received is that God could communicate directly to everyone. But how is that any different from God communicating to a Messenger? Why should God communicate the same message to everyone, when God can instead communicate to one man who can write that message down and make it available to everyone?

I can understand why this would be problematic if the Messenger was just an ordinary man but the premise upon which my religion is based is that the Messengers of God are more than human. They have a divine mind and that is why they can receive and convey messages from God to man.

You can only speak for yourself and other atheists you know personally. I know for a fact that many atheists are interested in knowing if there is a god because they told me so. Some are also interested in my religion and they researched it for themselves. I am not saying that they are going to believe it, but at least they are giving it a fair shot.

I can tell you for a fact that the reason they do not believe in it is because they do not like the “idea” of Messengers of God, but not one atheist has ever given me a good reason why God cannot and would not use a Messenger to represent Him and reveal a message to humanity. That is what I am still waiting for, a logical reason. To say that they cannot trust that a Messenger is from God is not a logical reason. That is just an emotional reason born out of fear of being wrong about the Messenger. But what if they are wrong and God does use Messengers to communicate?

Yes, as matter of fact, many atheists I have spoken with said that they are looking for God and asked me to show them the way. What do you think we discuss 24/7, the weather? Most of the atheists I talk to are not concerned about social or political issues, only about god.

If it's that personal and incognito then why proselytize?

Not to mention the person in question like a "messenger" or whomever who happens to be a human being themselves for which in light of that, becomes rather suspect that it's really themselves doing all the talking and doing or probably more accurately puppeteering with an imaginary God of their own making.

 

[Trailblazer]

Many religious people evangelize a lot. Part of evangelizing is trying to convert atheists into their religion, hence atheists spend a lot of time to explain when asked about God

Explain what?

More interesting question for a theist would be "Why do you talk to atheists so much?". Introspection for a theist might be more fruitful for the theist then evangelizing.

I think it is unfair to make a blanket statement that all theists evangelize. I am not seeking to convert anyone.
Are you implying that theists do not have introspection?

I talk to atheists because they talk to me. Look on this forum and see how many times I posted to an atheist who had not posted to me first.

 

[Trailblazer]

What could possibly be more interesting than something
completely foreign to me, but so important to others?

That is one reason I talk to so many atheists.
Sheesh... I learn something new every day.

 

[Trailblazer]

.... so that it's greatly clarified my thinking on a range of subjects from religion to morality to meanings and priorities.

Those are questions that otherwise I rarely come across in my ordinary life.

Is there some psychological attraction there? It's likely.

And so, those are some of the reasons I talk to so many atheists.

I do not run into too many at work because it is primarily Christian... The atheists at work are closet atheists.
I have one good friend I talk to who is an agnostic, raised Catholic... He likes to joke around about Baha'i, a very good-natured man, cares a lot about humanity and the state of the world, is big on politics and human rights.

 

[Quagmire]

Because they're lonely.

 

[Trailblazer]

Oh, I for one have a lot of interest in theism.

Not that I have the choice, mind you. It is difficult to be oblivious to fantastic claims with no factual support that are nonetheless continually presented as justification for various actions that affect us as well.

I was oblivious to theism during all the years that I was not interested... If I am not interested in something I blow it off and find something I am interested in...

For years I was interested in psychology and not interested in religion or God at all so I completely ignored them...

 

[Trailblazer]

If it's that personal and incognito then why proselytize?

I'm not. I am just talking, like everyone else does.

Not to mention the person in question like a "messenger" or whomever who happens to be a human being themselves for which in light of that, becomes rather suspect that it's really themselves doing all the talking and doing or probably more accurately puppeteering with an imaginary God of their own making.

Believe as you wish about messengers. I have no interest in convincing anyone of anything. I just share what I believe, like everyone else does.

 

[LuisDantas]

I was oblivious to theism during all the years that I was not interested...

Really? That sounds borderline impossible. Even the most athestic countries on Earth are plenty aware of theism.

If I am not interested in something I blow it off and find something I am interested in...

And that choice is actively denied most theists.

For years I was interested in psychology and not interested in religion or God at all so I completely ignored them...

I am glad, even envious, that you had such a choice at all.

Where were you raised?

 

[stvdv]

Many religious people evangelize a lot. Part of evangelizing is trying to convert atheists into their religion, hence atheists spend a lot of time to explain when asked about God

More interesting question for a theist would be "Why do you talk to atheists so much?". Introspection for a theist might be more fruitful for the theist then evangelizing.

Explain what?

I do not know. When someone asks me a question I just answer as good as I can; depending on the question.

I think it is unfair to make a blanket statement that all theists evangelize.

I did NOT make a blanket statement that ALL theists evangelize. I said "Many religious people evangelize a lot".

 

[Trailblazer]

Really? That sounds borderline impossible. Even the most athestic countries on Earth are plenty aware of theism.

Mind you, I was a Baha’i all the years that I ignored theism.

And that choice is actively denied most theists.

It is absolutely a choice, a choice God wants everyone to make. That is why we have free will.

I am glad, even envious, that you had such a choice at all.

I march to the beat of my own drummer. For decades I decided to walk away from the Baha’i Faith and when I was ready I decided to come back. I am still not interested in religion per se, but I am interested in what the Baha’i Faith teaches and I am interested in God because those both have important implications for me and all of humanity. I know God exists and I cannot walk away from that the way I can walk away from a religion.

Where were you raised?

Mostly in Indiana, the heart of the Bible belt, yet I never saw the inside of a church or read one page of the Bible. My parents were fallen away Christians.

 

[LuisDantas]

Are you truly telling me that you were a Bahai for years while unaware of theism?

 

[Trailblazer]

Are you truly telling me that you were a Bahai for years while unaware of theism?

I do not know what you mean by "unaware of theism." Can you explain what you mean by that?