We Never Know
No Slack
I enjoy conversing with the Bible thumpers and their opposites, the angry militant atheists.
I enjoy conversing with both sides of the fence. However I refuse to let them drag me into their opinion arguments of unknown things.
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Why do atheist believe something can come from nothing?
- Thread starter Nimos
- Start date
I enjoy conversing with both sides of the fence. However I refuse to let them drag me into their opinion arguments of unknown things.
Hop David
Member
And how about those Catholics immediately following Galileo? Fermat, Descartes, Pascal, and Cavalieri. You wouldn't call them renaissance men?
This nonsense about the church ending the renaissance and shutting down innovation is bull ****. Shame on you for making stuff up.
"End of the Italian Renaissance
The end of the Renaissance is as imprecisely marked as its starting point. For many, the rise to power in Florence of the austere monk Girolamo Savonarola in 1497 marks the end of the city's flourishing; for others, the triumphant return of the Medici marks the beginning of the late phase in the arts called Mannerism. Savonarola rode to power on a widespread backlash over the secularism and indulgence of the Renaissance – his brief rule saw many works of art destroyed in the " Bonfire of the Vanities" in the centre of Florence. With the Medici returned to power, now as Grand Dukes of Tuscany, the counter movement in the church continued. In 1542 the Sacred Congregation of the Inquisition was formed and a few years later the Index Librorum Prohibitorum banned a wide array of Renaissance works of literature.
Just as important was the end of stability with a series of foreign invasions of Italy known as the Italian Wars that would continue for several decades. These began with the 1494 invasion by France that wreaked widespread devastation on Northern Italy and ended the independence of many of the city-states. Most damaging was the May 6, 1527, Spanish and German troops' sacking Rome that for two decades all but ended the role of the Papacy as the largest patron of Renaissance art and architecture.
While the Italian Renaissance was fading, the Northern Renaissance adopted many of its ideals and transformed its styles.
A number of Italy's greatest artists chose to emigrate. The most notable example was Leonardo da Vinci who left for France in 1516, but teams of lesser artists invited to transform the Château de Fontainebleau created the school of Fontainebleau that infused the style of the Italian Renaissance in France. From Fontainebleau, the new styles, transformed by Mannerism, brought the Renaissance to Antwerp and thence throughout Northern Europe.
This spread north was also representative of a larger trend. No longer was the Mediterranean Europe's most important trade route. In 1498 Vasco da Gama reached India, and from that date the primary route of goods from the Orient was through the Atlantic ports of Lisbon, Seville, Nantes, Bristol, and London. These areas quickly surpassed Italy in wealth and power."
Italian Renaissance
So, you are correct, I overstated my case, and for that I apologize. I do not, however, back down from my contention that the church, and a return of religious control over human choice in cultural and intellectual pursuits, played a major part, as shown above.
By which Meister Eckhart meant, "those who think like I do will agree with me."
When I look for "truth," I want it to come with some authority beyond someone claiming to have personally heard from God, or claiming to be too wise for the rest of us to understand. I want some evidence based in the facts that surround us all.
Why, at the end of the day, would I prefer the notions of the creation of the universe and the development of all things, including living things, within it as given by the Bible, written 2000 and more years ago by people whose scientific technology consisted of the pulley, the lever and the inclined plane, over the studies through the last 500 years by hordes and hordes of educated humans with technologies that have developed all the way up the Large Hadron Collider, Artificial Intelligence and the ability to walk upon the moon?
leov
Well-Known Member
I am not in a camp of converting new believers, it is not my , I think that relationship with God is tête-à-tête . And ME did not mean what you wrote. He meant those who have the same experience...Science does not contradict religion unless you are a literal reader.
Skwim
Veteran Member
I assume then that you do not accept the Biblical story of creation, the Flood story, the tower of Babel story, Jesus turning water into wine, a talking snake, Jonah living in a whale, Jesus walking on water, the Sun and Moon standing still, Balaam's *** speaking to him, Jesus
resurrecting Lazarus from the dead, god changing optical physics so as to create rainbows, Jesus calming a storm by his mere words. etc., etc.
Good for you.
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leov
Well-Known Member
I’ve said once, Bible is a theological treatise, Gnostic style. Lots of allegory.I assume then that you do not accept the Biblical story of creation, the Flood story, the tower of Babel story, Jesus turning water into wine, a talking snake, Jonah living in a whale, Jesus walking on water, the Sun and Moon standing still, Balaam's *** speaking to him, Jesus
resurrecting Lazarus from the dead, god changing optical physics so as to create rainbows, Jesus calming a storm by his mere words. etc., etc.
Good for you.
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Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
How does one separate allegory from history?
leov
Well-Known Member
Some do not. If miracle involved it needs to look closer at it. I suspect 90 % of Bible is allegory designed to give you moral lessons or theological lesson.
Bob the Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
Interesting deflection. You cannot argue my points with respect to your god.
So you go on a direct attack instead.
But. Why do you hate? I don't know-- why do you? Only someone who has some deep seated issues, would believe in a god who you actually think, creates a Custom Infinite Torture Pit for anyone who doesn't worship him?
And worse-- you believe you -- and pretty much only you -- (or people exactly like you) -- get to enjoy infinite bliss-- while you are okay with the infinite torture?
Bob the Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
Liar. Liar-liar-pants-on-fire. You said, multiple times, I was never a christian...
leov
Well-Known Member
You do not understand “my God”.
leov
Well-Known Member
I asked you once if you were sure...I think you do not know what that means.
Bob the Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
And the other 10% is horse exhaust. Good.
Bob the Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
I was as sure as you are, that gravity will pull you down if you jump from a high place. More so than you, I expect-- I thought the bible was 100% true... and you just admitted you think it's 90% myth...
leov
Well-Known Member
Bravo, ex- Christian Bob!
Skwim
Veteran Member
leov
Well-Known Member
Why not?
Skwim
Veteran Member
Well, it doesn't fit the definition of a "treatise." Give me a sec. here and I'll look it up.
Okay:
trea·tise
/ˈtrēdis/
Learn to pronounce
noun
noun: treatise; plural noun: treatises
a written work dealing formally and systematically with a subject.
(my emphases)
.
/ˈtrēdis/
Learn to pronounce
noun
noun: treatise; plural noun: treatises
a written work dealing formally and systematically with a subject.
(my emphases)
.
leov
Well-Known Member
So far I do not recognize what is wrong?