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Featured Why do atheist believe something can come from nothing?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Nimos, Jun 19, 2019.

  1. Bob the Unbeliever

    Bob the Unbeliever Well-Known Member

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    Irony also duly noted.
     
  2. Hop David

    Hop David Member

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    An interesting history you've invented there.

    Some scholars put the end of the Italian Renaissance in in the early 1500s. Galileo was born in 1564.

    A number of things brought it to an an end but . . . "Most damaging was the May 6, 1527, Spanish and German troops' sacking Rome that for two decades all but ended the role of the Papacy as the largest patron of Renaissance art and architecture."

    Incidentally Galileo was taught the 3 R's by Catholic priests. He attended and worked at a university built by a pope. And he did some of his most important work while under house arrest, basically a paid vacation. Without the Catholic Church there would have been no Galileo.

    Did the inquisition's arrest of Galileo put an end to math and science in the Catholic nations? Ummmm...... Nope.

    Just after Galileo came the Italian mathematician Bonaventura Cavalieri (1598-1647). In Galileo's words "few, if any, since Archimedes, have delved as far and as deep into the science of geometry." Indeed. Cavalieri helped lay the foundations of integral calculus in the generation before Newton and Leibniz. See Cavalieri's principle. And any freshman physics student should recognize Cavalieri's Quadrature Formula:
    [​IMG]
    Cavalieri was a Catholic, by the way.

    And also just after Galileo came the French mathematicians Fermat, Descartes and Pascal. France was a Catholic nation at that time. And all three of these men were Catholics

    Fermat and Descartes invented analytical geometry -- graph paper with an x and y axis. With this tool curves like parabolas and ellipses could be represented as algebraic formulas. y=x^2 is a parabola and x^2 + y^2 = 1 becomes a circle of radius 1.

    With this potent new device slopes of curves and areas under curves could be found be methods of exhaustion. Which Cavalieri did for areas underneath a curve. And Fermat did for the slopes of curves.

    Thus the foundations for integral and differential calculus were laid in the generation before Newton and Leibniz. By Catholic men.

    Also prominent in the post Galileo science scene was Johanne Kepler. Kepler was Lutheran but often lived and worked in Catholic nations.

    TL;DR. If Catholic suppression of math and science gives us folks like Galileo, Cavalieri, Fermat, Descartes, Pascal and Kepler I'd say let's have some more of this so called suppression.
     
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  3. Road Warrior

    Road Warrior Seeking the middle path..

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    Welcome David. You're new here and obviously very knowledgeable plus we're about the same age...but I'm two years older and will give you some unasked for advice:

    1) Most people on forums have the attention span of cats. If you can't put your point across in 3 or less paragraphs, you're just jerking off on the page. Very few, if any, will read it.

    2) You are overestimating the ability of the average forum poster to be logical and look past their emotions. Sure, most here are above average intelligence, but, on average, they are also very highly overly emotional. In short: here emotions overtake logic. Sad, but true.

    3) Lastly, some unasked for advice: do your best to remain logical, factual and calm regardless of how many people troll you, lie about you or twist your words. They'll do it, but if you do your best to follow those things, you'll be most true to your ideals.
     
  4. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...

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    But the very same thing can be said for a Creator, which...if nothing can come from nothing...seems to be the default opinion of a lot of people. But they then instantly change the rules when asked, "where did the Creator come from?), usually claiming something like "the Creator is a necessary being." Now, I don't know if you realize it, but that is merely a statement made up by people for the convenient purpose of explaining away what they can't explain.

    But that leaves me with something that perhaps you might ponder: what if it is impossible that "nothing" should exist? Would that not mean that "something" (about which, by the way, you need know nothing whatever) is "a necessity" in the same way, but without having all the stuff usually associated, impossibly, with a Creator -- intelligence, intention, rules and a whole lot more, where there is not even anything outside of that Creator itself, before it acts, that would imply the existence of or need for such attributes.

    At least "I don't know" leaves open everything (yes, including God). Insisting on God means being unwilling to say, "I don't know," and asserting something that, to be entirely truthful, you cannot know.
     
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  5. We Never Know

    We Never Know Well-Known Member

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    Yes which is why I said a couple days ago IMO everyone believes in a form of something from nothing.
     
  6. We Never Know

    We Never Know Well-Known Member

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    Public speaking is different than speaking of what you know/specialize in
     
  7. Landon Caeli

    Landon Caeli What's your stoyle?

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    Why you would insult an entire group seems rather foolish.
     
  8. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    So you believe in the magic of the words?

    Is that like saying God is a witch, wizard or sorcerer?

    Witchcraft and magic supposedly can make something or make something happen with incantations.

    If you have read anything other than the Bible, you would know that the ancient Egyptians believe that the sun god Ra or Atum, Thoth and Isis were powerful magicians, who could do magic, like creation and healing, just by the spoken words, just like God saying “Let there be light” or Jesus healing people with either touch of his hands or saying some words.

    Miracles and magic are one and the same.

    So was God a student at Hogwarts? Or was he one of the professors?
     
  9. leov

    leov Active Member
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    Not really, if comes with the territory so be it, this is not what I spoke if, I know that spirit world is real.
     
  10. Bob the Unbeliever

    Bob the Unbeliever Well-Known Member

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    But. Can you **prove** it? No? There you go...
     
  11. leov

    leov Active Member
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    Why do I need to prove it to anyone? I have prove for myself, who cares that you or someone else do not believe, some are not capable even recognize a proof.
     
  12. Bob the Unbeliever

    Bob the Unbeliever Well-Known Member

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    So that is a big 'no' then.

    And it also appears that you con't care if your beliefs are real, or myth either.

    So long as you don't try to pass laws forcing others to follow your belief?

    Wait... that is exactly what you do? Then, in fact, you do owe others proof after all...
     
  13. Hop David

    Hop David Member

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    (Reading some of the posts...) You seem to be correct. I will try again but keep it short.
     
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  14. Hop David

    Hop David Member

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    This is bull ****. For a number of reasons.
     

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    #674 Hop David, Jun 23, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2019
  15. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    What-evs
     
  16. leov

    leov Active Member
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    Why? It is not possible. Paraphrasing Meister Eckhart: 'Those who know the truth know that I am telling the truth'.
     
  17. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

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  18. Road Warrior

    Road Warrior Seeking the middle path..

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    Good plan. Another thought; consider why people are here. To argue and vent? Entertainment? Nothing else to do? It varies, but there are certainly limitations. In my case, I travel for a living and have an unconventional job. Forums allow me many of the same opportunities that a person with a 9-5 job visiting with neighbors has in their life.
     
  19. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

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    Not what atheism is.

    Perhaps you should inform yourself first.

    Atheism is the disbelief of theistic claims.
    It is answering "no" to the question "do you believe god exists?"

    It does not address the question "do you believe that NO god exists?".
     
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  20. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

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    Just because you said that, I propose we call it "Audie's Law".

    ;-)
     
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