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Why Didn't the Holy Spirit Know?

Duncan

Member
You’re welcome, and the long reply is much appreciated but unnecessary. You had me at, “God is one God merged into three Gods”!

I mean, I always endeavor to be logical, and to say God is one God and God is not one God is a logical contradiction and not possibly true! If that is what Trinitarians believe, then I would never call myself one. For this is indeed a illogical:

1a. There are three Gods merged into one God.
But is (1a) what they believe? I’ve understood them to instead teach this:

1b. There is only one true God, and this one God is in three persons.
Would you say (1b) means the same as (1a) or does it mean something different?

I appreciate that you read, but disappointed you stopped “God is one God merged into three Gods” because there is an explanation of it after that :) fair enough.

the statement 1a and 1b are different from each other,and the only true statement is "There is only one true God" both 1a;1b are an eternal mystery, because its a human fabrication, and I explained it very well why the trinity is a fabrication in my previous message
 

Sp0ckrates

Member
I appreciate that you read, but disappointed you stopped “God is one God merged into three Gods” because there is an explanation of it after that :) fair enough.

the statement 1a and 1b are different from each other,and the only true statement is "There is only one true God" both 1a;1b are an eternal mystery, because its a human fabrication, and I explained it very well why the trinity is a fabrication in my previous message
My apologies! I did read your entire reply and had a few questions, but I didn’t want to burden you with all of them. My thought was that if you answered this first question, it might help me see the answer to the others. I’m a sequential learner. If I don’t understand something, I pause to ask. Is this OK with you?
 
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Sp0ckrates

Member
So basically the fact that you take anything and you make it equal to God, a Doll, a Cat, an elephant, a statu, a Prophet is absolutely forbidden, you worship it or you dont its called Shirk mean associating a partner or others with Allah, and when you do that you basically worship it, take the exemple oh the jew with the calf, the christian with Jesus is a perfect exemple of associating someone with God and worshiping him. plenty of verses to prevent people to warn people:

Say, [O Muhammad], "Invoke those you claim [as deities] besides Allah ." They do not possess an atom's weight [of ability] in the heavens or on the earth, and they do not have therein any partnership [with Him], nor is there for Him from among them any assistant.

Say, [O Muhammad], "Have you considered that which you invoke besides Allah ? Show me what they have created of the earth; or did they have partnership in [creation of] the heavens? Bring me a scripture [revealed] before this or a [remaining] trace of knowledge, if you should be truthful." 46:04

And [mention, O Muhammad], when Luqman said to his son while he was instructing him, "O my son, do not associate [anything] with Allah . Indeed, association [with him] is great injustice." 31:13.

God is ordering us to worship only him alone:

Say, "O People of the Scripture, come to a word that is equitable between us and you - that we will not worship except Allah and not associate anything with Him and not take one another as lords instead of Allah ." But if they turn away, then say, "Bear witness that we are Muslims [submitting to Him]." 3:64

I hope it is clear, please feel free to ask me :)

Thank you. So, what about misunderstanding? If a Christian mistakenly believes there is only one God who is in Jesus (pbuh) is that the same as worshiping a different God, or is the Christian merely mistaken about what the only God is and so might be forgiven for such ignorance?
 
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Duncan

Member
My apologies! I did read your entire reply and had a few questions, but I didn’t want to burden you with all of them. My thought was that if you answered this first question, it might help me see the answer to the others. I’m a sequential learner. If I don’t understand something, I pause to ask. Is this OK with you?

Not a problem at all brother, you can ask at anytime and at your convenience, dont worry about that. But as I said look into what I said and search about it. You know learning takes time and myself I am still learning new stuff everyday :)
 

Duncan

Member
Thank you. So, what about misunderstanding? If a Christian mistakenly believes there is only one God who is in Jesus (pbuh) is that the same as worshiping a different God, or is the Christian merely mistaken about what the only God is and so might be forgiven for such ignorance?

That is a very good question. You see brother God the Almighty will never punition a nation without sending them a prophet to guide them and warn them, a perfect exemple of Pharaoh who enslaved the children of Israel and proclaimed to be a God, God sent him Moises peace be upon him. God said in the Quran:

And never would We punish until We sent a messenger.17:15

Now here there is no misunderstanding, when I debate with my friend of why you are christian or a jew, they answer because my forefathers were Christians or Jews so I follow their foot steps

And when it is said to them, "Follow what Allah has revealed," they say, "Rather, we will follow that which we found our fathers doing." Even though their fathers understood nothing, nor were they guided? 2:170


You see the bible has the prophecy about the prophet Muhammad peace be upon him. Moises and Jesus peace be upon them prophecies it in the Bible. (we can if you want and when you want to know the passages of that prophecy in the Bible). So know when the prophet Muhammad peace be upon him arrived and had the Quraan addressing the people of the book to believe in One God and worship him alone; Some believed some denied.

So that was 1400 years ago, Now we are in 2020 the Quran is still the same like it was 1400 years and it is available everywhere, So we cant say Oh we didn't receive the message and the messenger, Because Jesus peace be upon him never never never said he is God or the son of God to the children of Israel. there is a verse I would like to Share with you, that I find very powerful.

And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen. 5:116

I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness. 5:117

If You should punish them - indeed they are Your servants; but if You forgive them - indeed it is You who is the Exalted in Might, the Wise. 5:118

I hope that answered the question, please do let me know if you have questions :)
 

Sp0ckrates

Member
Not a problem at all brother, you can ask at anytime and at your convenience, dont worry about that. But as I said look into what I said and search about it. You know learning takes time and myself I am still learning new stuff everyday :)
I’m an amateur philosopher, and in my inefficient way, I suppose I’m like the Father of Philosophy Socrates who said, “I have, I fear, a tedious way of putting a simple question!” (Theatetus).

Yet, I ask questions of anyone who is kind enough to bear with me, for I learn much about why they believe. So, I thank you for your patience as I hope to benefit from your wisdom!
 
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Sp0ckrates

Member
That is a very good question. You see brother God the Almighty will never punition a nation without sending them a prophet to guide them and warn them, a perfect exemple of Pharaoh who enslaved the children of Israel and proclaimed to be a God, God sent him Moises peace be upon him. God said in the Quran:

And never would We punish until We sent a messenger.17:15

Now here there is no misunderstanding, when I debate with my friend of why you are christian or a jew, they answer because my forefathers were Christians or Jews so I follow their foot steps

And when it is said to them, "Follow what Allah has revealed," they say, "Rather, we will follow that which we found our fathers doing." Even though their fathers understood nothing, nor were they guided? 2:170


You see the bible has the prophecy about the prophet Muhammad peace be upon him. Moises and Jesus peace be upon them prophecies it in the Bible. (we can if you want and when you want to know the passages of that prophecy in the Bible). So know when the prophet Muhammad peace be upon him arrived and had the Quraan addressing the people of the book to believe in One God and worship him alone; Some believed some denied.

So that was 1400 years ago, Now we are in 2020 the Quran is still the same like it was 1400 years and it is available everywhere, So we cant say Oh we didn't receive the message and the messenger, Because Jesus peace be upon him never never never said he is God or the son of God to the children of Israel. there is a verse I would like to Share with you, that I find very powerful.

And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen. 5:116


I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness. 5:117

If You should punish them - indeed they are Your servants; but if You forgive them - indeed it is You who is the Exalted in Might, the Wise. 5:118

I hope that answered the question, please do let me know if you have questions :)
I appreciate your concern for me and your knowledge of the text!

I mean, in this specific dialogue, we are exploring the question, “Is the Koran as ambiguous as the Bible?” To that question, I wonder about these words:

Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah

To me, the words have a few possible meanings:
  1. To believe either Jesus or his mother are gods is wrong
  2. To believe both Jesus and his mother are gods is wrong, but to believe he is God and she is not is not.
  3. To believe Jesus is a different god from the only God is wrong, but to believe he is the same as the only God is not.
I’m assuming you believe (1) to be the correct interpretation. Is there a less ambiguous passage we may compare with 5:116 to clarify it’s meaning?
 
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Sp0ckrates

Member
You’re welcome, and the long reply is much appreciated but unnecessary. You had me at, “God is one God merged into three Gods”!

I mean, I always endeavor to be logical, and to say God is one God and God is not one God is a logical contradiction and not possibly true! If that is what Trinitarians believe, then I would never call myself one. For this is indeed a illogical:

1a. There are three Gods merged into one God.
But is (1a) what they believe? I’ve understood them to instead teach this:

1b. There is only one true God, and this one God is in three persons.
Would you say (1b) means the same as (1a) or does it mean something different?
I appreciate that you read, but disappointed you stopped “God is one God merged into three Gods” because there is an explanation of it after that :) fair enough.

the statement 1a and 1b are different from each other,and the only true statement is "There is only one true God" both 1a;1b are an eternal mystery, because its a human fabrication, and I explained it very well why the trinity is a fabrication in my previous message
So, in this second dialogue, what I wonder is this: Is it possible for a Christian to logically believe the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are God and also believe there is only one God?

To help me find the answer, please let me ask: Would you say that while (1a) is logical contradiction (1b) is not? If you do believe (1b) is also illogical, please explain why.

Once again, thank you for your patience! I do intend to ask you about the biblical passages you took the time to bring to my attention, if necessary. But if (1b) is illogical, there would be no need. For anything illogical is something I find no good reason to accept as true.
 
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Duncan

Member
I appreciate your concern for me and your knowledge of the text!

I mean, in this specific dialogue, we are exploring the question, “Is the Koran as ambiguous as the Bible?” To that question, I wonder about these words:

Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah

To me, the words have a few possible meanings:
  1. To believe either Jesus or his mother are gods is wrong
  2. To believe both Jesus and his mother are gods is wrong, but to believe he is God and she is not is not.
  3. To believe Jesus is a different god from the only God is wrong, but to believe he is the same as the only God is not.
I’m assuming you believe (1) to be the correct interpretation. Is there a less ambiguous passage we may compare with 5:116 to clarify it’s meaning?

We all know brother that the cure for ignorance is to question so please ask as many as you wish and you will find me patiente by the Will of God :)

You see there is absolutely nothing ambiguous in the Quran, because it is the word of God, and the passage that I shared with you, the whole section is a conversation in the hereafter.
So to answer the question you You can go through the whole Quran and read about Jesus peace be upon him to find that He was just a messenger of God.

"O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" the answer to that was "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.
I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness.
If You should punish them - indeed they are Your servants; but if You forgive them - indeed it is You who is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.


That is clear as water :)
 
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Duncan

Member
So, in this second dialogue, what I wonder is this: Is it possible for a Christian to logically believe the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are God and also believe there is only one God?

If you go with that logic you are then using associationnisme with the Almighty and that practice existed long before where people used to believe in one God but has other gods. the father, the son, the holy spirit each of them is different, here the Father is God the almighty. So no the message of all prophets since Adam peace be upon him is but worship the one God.

To help me find the answer, please let me ask: Would you say that while (1a) is logical contradiction (1b) is not? If you do believe (1b) is also illogical, please explain why.

Here is you tell me there is only one true God I agree but if you add to that this God is in three person I strongly disagree, God doesn't need to be in 3 persons to be God and please again read the long work I wrote regarding the trinity, it will give you a clear answer to 1A and 1B at the same time.
I mean ff the doctrine of the Trinity is correct- and the church does indeed declare that it is the most important theological teaching of Christianity then why did it take over 350 years for Christians to figure it out? This long history of the development of the doctrine of the Trinity makes it suspicious, suggesting that this teaching is of men and not of God.

So, I think Trinitarianism does not represent the beliefs of the Christians of the first century. Furthermore, I think those Jewish Christians were strict monotheists who had never heard of the notion that their one God consists of three persons. Nor did they believe in the so-called Incarnation - the preexisting God the Son coming down from heaven to become the man Jesus.

Why do you want to believe something That Jesus peace be upon him never mention it? Is it hard to believe that God is one and everything exist belongs to him?
 

Sp0ckrates

Member
If you go with that logic you are then using associationnisme with the Almighty and that practice existed long before where people used to believe in one God but has other gods. the father, the son, the holy spirit each of them is different, here the Father is God the almighty. So no the message of all prophets since Adam peace be upon him is but worship the one God.
Yeah, no. Sorry for my being clear as mud! Please let me begin to explain why I believe (1b) might not be a logical contradiction. Consider these premises:
  1. The word God is a noun.
  2. A noun is a person or a place or a thing.
  3. A person isn’t a place or a thing, a place isn’t a person or a thing, and a thing isn’t a person or a place.
  4. If God is a thing — I’m not saying God is, just saying if — then God is not a person.
  5. However, a thing can be in a person.
Are any of these statements false? If so, please explain which one and why. If not, I’ll continue.
 
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Sp0ckrates

Member
We all know brother that the cure for ignorance is to question so please ask as many as you wish and you will find me patiente by the Will of God :)
Agreed! I believe the Father of Philosophy agrees with us as well:

I have long been wondering at my own wisdom. I cannot trust myself, and I think I ought to stop and ask myself, “What am I saying?” For there is nothing worse than self-deception, when the deceiver is always at home and always with you. It’s is quite terrible!
(Cratylus)
I always try to reevaluate my ideas to see where I might be self-deceived.

You see there is absolutely nothing ambiguous in the Quran, because it is the word of God, and the passage that I shared with you, the whole section is a conversation in the hereafter.
So to answer the question you You can go through the whole Quran and read about Jesus peace be upon him to find that He was just a messenger of God.

"O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" the answer to that was "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.
I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness.
If You should punish them - indeed they are Your servants; but if You forgive them - indeed it is You who is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.


That is clear as water :)

Sorry for being clear as mud again! I’m not saying the Quran is vague. I’m asking if some passages can be misunderstood, since the text isn’t written in such a way as to make any misinterpretation impossible.

I mean, take the word ambiguous itself. It can mean two different things:

a. doubtful or uncertain especially from obscurity or indistinctness

b. capable of being understood in two or more possible senses or ways
Definition of AMBIGUOUS

From your reply, it seems you believed I was asking if the passage we’re currently considering is (a). But I’m not. Instead, I’m asking if the passage is (b). Is it possible for a rational person who is genuinely seeking the truth to misinterpret the Quran?
 
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rational experiences

Veteran Member
The sacrificed life of humans, which is quoted as living equally inside of the heavenly body in the same water/oxygen life, that supports Nature living with at exactly the same moment.....Holy spirit...at the same time of the animal life....Holy spirit at the same time as male/female human life.....Holy spirit together in one moment sharing exactly the same living conditions.

In a gas alight atmosphere supported cooling by water/oxygenated mass.

Then science applies nuclear radio wave radiation conversions...in the past trans mutation of the stone mass. The known science, how to obtain gold mass.

Nature is bio life, using water/oxygen....and then you alter the atmospheric nature support of life and water mass is removed from natural support and mis directed out of natural order for cooling of converted radiation in stone history, natural mass.

How are you all not informed that you did evil?

When science quotes consciousness as self owned human being bio life, a studier/researcher of all things cosmologically owned....and then makes quotes as if he will understand, what do you claim you will understand in reality?

The answer is, researching for what form God was as the beginning, when it was not a planet. Which makes no common sense. You only live on a planet.

Does gas as the term spirit in science know time? No.

How long does science claim that gases have been burning for in space? To still be a gas and present as a gas burning?

Does he know factually how long gas, as a gas will remain burning for?

Should be the question he should ask his own science self rationally.

Gas burning is what he claims is light and time.

Therefore he should ask his own self...how long has Earth gases been burning for until it runs out of gases burning?

The story says, that if a gas cannot tell you consciously about time and light, then how can you claim that you know? You only survive living if you are healthy for 100 years in light.
 

Duncan

Member
Yeah, no. Sorry for my being clear as mud! Please let me begin to explain why I believe (1b) might not be a logical contradiction. Consider these premises:
  1. The word God is a noun.
  2. A noun is a person or a place or a thing.
  3. A person isn’t a place or a thing, a place isn’t a person or a thing, and a thing isn’t a person or a place.
  4. If God is a thing — I’m not saying God is, just saying if — then God is not a person.
  5. However, a thing can be in a person.
Are any of these statements false? If so, please explain which one and why. If not, I’ll continue.


Please brother do continue I want to know what are your thoughts of who you think God is
 

Duncan

Member
Agreed! I believe the Father of Philosophy agrees with us as well:

I have long been wondering at my own wisdom. I cannot trust myself, and I think I ought to stop and ask myself, “What am I saying?” For there is nothing worse than self-deception, when the deceiver is always at home and always with you. It’s is quite terrible!
(Cratylus)
I always try to reevaluate my ideas to see where I might be self-deceived.



Sorry for being clear as mud again! I’m not saying the Quran is vague. I’m asking if some passages can be misunderstood, since the text isn’t written in such a way as to make any misinterpretation impossible.

I mean, take the word ambiguous itself. It can mean two different things:

a. doubtful or uncertain especially from obscurity or indistinctness

b. capable of being understood in two or more possible senses or ways
Definition of AMBIGUOUS

From your reply, it seems you believed I was asking if the passage we’re currently considering is (a). But I’m not. Instead, I’m asking if the passage is (b). Is it possible for a rational person who is genuinely seeking the truth to misinterpret the Quran?

Apologies, I miss understood you. Allow me to explain the ruling of the interpretation of the Quran. You see, two people reading the same text, or looking at the same object, can often come to different conclusions. Some of these differences are legitimate while others are not. After the Prophet’s peace be upon him death, Muslim scholars immediately recognized the need to establish rules for interpreting the Quran in order to preserve its meaning and protect it from being misinterpreted. This allowed room for different interpretations, but it also established boundaries for things considered outside the fold of legitimate interpretation. Below are general criteria Muslim scholars have set to properly understand the Quran:

  • The Context of the Quran

Each verse must be understood in light of the Quran itself. If a verse is interpreted in a particular way, it should be in conformity with other affirmative evidence provided by other verses of the Holy Quran. If this evidence is absent or if the interpretation clearly contradicts other Quranic verses, then this understanding of the verse is incorrect because it is not possible for the Quran to contradict itself. For instance, there is a verse in the Quran that says: Woe to those who pray (Quran 107:4). By itself, one might think that God is criticizing those who pray. However, the context of this verse is that it is criticizing those who pray are heedless and lazy concerning their prayer. This is indicated by the following verse: Those who are heedless of their prayer (Quran 107:5).

  • The Interpretation of the Prophet

The life of the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him is understood to be a living example of the Quran. All other Muslims are fallible in their interpretation of the Quran. However, if the Prophet peace be upon him interpreted a verse in a particular manner then that is the absolute meaning of the verse. Furthermore, the Quran must be understood in light of his actions. If the interpretation of a Quranic verse contradicts the Prophet’s life, then that interpretation is incorrect, and the verse has a more specific meaning. A popular example is a verse used by many Islamophobes to claim that the Quran tells Muslims to kill all non-Muslims: And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them (Quran 9:5). This verse cannot mean to kill all non-Muslims for several reasons. First, the verse does not state to kill all non-Muslims. It is referring specifically the polytheists.

When the Quran uses the term polytheists it is almost always referring to the idol worshippers of Mecca who were attacking the Muslims. What it does mention are time and place. In Arabia, the Arabs agreed to not fight during the holy months in order that pilgrims feel safe to travel. The Muslims also thought that they cannot fight in Mecca, and God gave them permission to do so if they are attacked in the city. Lastly, the Prophet peace be upon him did not kill all non-Muslims. Rather, he had non-Muslim relatives, neighbors, friends, and allies. Another example is the Quran commands Muslims to pray, but it does not say how many times. The Prophet peace be upon him taught Muslims that the prayer is five times a day. If someone claimed it was more or less, this interpretation would be incorrect because it is not in accordance with the teachings and life of the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him.

  • The Interpretation of the Companions
The Companions of the Prophet peace be upon him hold a special status in Islam. Throughout the Quran God notes that He is pleased with them, they are truthful, honest, and dedicated to the message of Islam. They also had a close relationship with the Prophet peace be upon him. Therefore, their interpretation of the Quran is always taken into consideration, especially if the interpretation is held by a significant number of Companions or the scholars among them.

  • The Arabic Language
God revealed the Quran in the Arabic language for a reason, a reason that is perhaps beyond the grasp of human understanding. God says in the Quran: We have sent it down as an Arabic Quran, in order that you may learn wisdom (Quran 12:2). This is not because Arabs are superior to others, but because the Arabic language is the richest of all languages in depth and breadth.

Translations, no matter how sincere and excellent, are always lacking. This is due to the fact that there is always meaning lost when a message delivered in one language is translated into another. The Quran must be understood in light of the Arabic language. For example, one might read the following verse and argue that there is a possibility of God having a son: If Allah had intended to take a son, He could have chosen from what He creates whatever He willed. Exalted is He; He is Allah, the One, the Prevailing (Quran 39:4).

Muslims believe that it is not possible for God to have a son because it is against His nature. The translation of this verse seems to indicate that it is possible. However, when we refer to the Arabic language used in this verse, we quickly see that is not the case. In English, there is only one “if,” but in Arabic, there are several ways to say “if.” The word used in this verse is lauw, which is the if of impossibility. This means that anything that follows the word lauw is impossible. This is consistent throughout the Quran, the Prophet’s speech, and the language of the Arabs. It is like saying “If I can fly” or “If I was alive a thousand years ago” or “If only I made a different decision in the past.” All of these are impossible. This is but one example of how the Quran can be misinterpreted when one bypasses the Arabic language.

Language also changes over time and the meanings of particular words can change. However, the Quran must be interpreted according to the understanding and usage of the words at the time of the Prophet peace be upon him.

So you probably will ask when is an interpretation incorrect? Generally, when the above criteria are ignored or not met, the interpretation is not valid. If the interpretation is based simply on personal opinion, whim, or desire without taking the above criteria into consideration. Sincerity and open mindedness are essential components of properly interpreting any text, but by itself sincerity is not enough. One must have considered the overall context of the verse and when it was revealed, the Quran’s overall message, the teachings and life of the Prophet peace be upon him, the understanding of the earliest Muslim generations, as well as the grammatical, syntactical and etymological nuances of the Arabic language.

This obviously requires a level of scholarship. This is not to say that the Quran can only be understood by scholars. The general message and lessons from the Quran can be understood by everyone, even the unlettered. The message of the Quran is simple, there is one God, Muslims believe in all Prophets, the hereafter, prayer, charity etc. However, not all of the Quran is as simple. Several Quranic verses deal with issues of law and creed, these require a level of scholarship to properly understand. This is why the Quran commands Muslims to ask the people of knowledge when they do not know (Quran 16:43 and 21:7).

The Quran, through its guidance and divine origins, will always stand as evidence of interpretations that best represent its true meaning. God says in the Quran: He sends down rain from the sky, causing the valleys to flow, each according to its capacity. The currents then carry along rising foam, similar to the slag produced from metal that people melt in the fire for ornaments or tools. This is how Allah compares truth to falsehood. The ˹worthless˺ residue is then cast away, but what benefits people remains on the earth. This is how Allah sets forth parables (Quran 13:17).

Ultimately, incorrect and intentionally false interpretations of the Quran hold no weight and will be cast away just like the foam or residue that sits on top of water. And interpretations which are truthful will remain in the hearts of people and produce spiritual growth and understanding. The above criteria make the Quran unique among other scriptures. Other scriptures are often read only in translation because the original language is lost, and their authenticity is very questionable. The Quran is the only book among all other scriptures that promises that it would be preserved. God states in the Quran: We have sent down the Quran Ourself, and We Ourself will guard it (Quran 15:9).

I really hope that explanation helped you understand more about the ruling of interpretation of the Quran. please brother ask me if have doubts or confused of what I said :)
 

Sp0ckrates

Member
Please brother do continue I want to know what are your thoughts of who you think God is
I mean, I personally don’t know, but I do know what Trinitarians think God is. They would say your question is imprecise. Rather than ask who God is, you should ask what God is. For God is not a person. God is a thing (i.e., an essence) which is in three persons. Their reasoning can be:
  1. The word God is a noun.
  2. A noun is a person or a place or a thing.
  3. A person isn’t a place or a thing, a place isn’t a person or a thing, and a thing isn’t a person or a place.
  4. If God is a thing, then God is not a person.
  5. However, a thing can be in a person.
  6. It’s not illogical to say one thing is in one or more persons
  7. Trinitarians believe God is an essence, which is a thing.
  8. Trinitarians believe God is in three persons—the Father, Son and Holy Spirit—which is what they call the Trinity
Therefore, their conclusion is the Trinity is not a logical contradiction, and so it isn’t irrational to believe in it.​

Do you at least agree that the concept of God as a Trinity is not illogical, though it might still be untrue? If you do, then I think we should return to the biblical passages you cited to see if any of them disagree with one of the premises of their logical argument. For although logically sound, they might still be making factual errors.

Would you like to either (A) point out a logical error made in their argument or (B) quote one of the biblical passages you provided before and explain why it shows their argument commits a factual error?
 
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Duncan

Member
I mean, I personally don’t know, but I do know what Trinitarians think God is. They would say your question is imprecise. Rather than ask who God is, you should ask what God is. For God is not a person. God is a thing (i.e., an essence) which is in three persons. Their reasoning can be:
  1. The word God is a noun.
  2. A noun is a person or a place or a thing.
  3. A person isn’t a place or a thing, a place isn’t a person or a thing, and a thing isn’t a person or a place.
  4. If God is a thing, then God is not a person.
  5. However, a thing can be in a person.
  6. It’s not illogical to say one thing is in one or more persons
  7. Trinitarians believe God is an essence, which is a thing.
  8. Trinitarians believe God is in three persons—the Father, Son and Holy Spirit—which is what they call the Trinity
Therefore, their conclusion is the Trinity is not a logical contradiction, and so it isn’t irrational to believe in it.​

Do you at least agree that the concept of God as a Trinity is not illogical, though it might still be untrue? If you do, then I think we should return to the biblical passages you cited to see if any of them disagree with one of the premises of their logical argument. For although logically sound, they might still be making factual errors.

Would you like to either (A) point out a logical error made in their argument or (B) quote one of the biblical passages you provided before and explain why it shows their argument commits a factual error?


Hello brother, I would like first to apologies for my delay in getting back to you, to answer you question I totally disagree with the concept of Trinitarianism, and my previews post explained my disagreement of the use of the trinity, and Why it can`t be. Do you know who invented Trinity?
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
Speaking about his second coming, Jesus said,

"But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." Matt 24:36.
I understand Trinitarians say that it was the "man part" of Jesus that didn't know the day and hour. Scripturally, it's not the best argument given that there are no verses that mention a "man part" of Jesus.

But we'll assume Jesus had a God part as well as a man part. But why doesn't the third person of the trinity know the day and hour? Is he also part God and part man?
I'm not trinitarian. the holy Spirit did know. the holy Spirit knows all things. The Spirit is the Spirit of your Father.

Mat 10:20
For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
I'm not trinitarian. the holy Spirit did know. the holy Spirit knows all things. The Spirit is the Spirit of your Father.

Mat 10:20
For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Yes. God is spirit and He is holy, hence He is often called the Holy Spirit. It is not another person, but a name or title of the one God who is one in every sense of the word. One is not three, nor is it two. One is one.

God also gives a gift of what He is, i.e. the gift of holy spirit which was first given on the day of Pentecost. A few OT folks had holy spirit, but it was conditional and temporary. Christians have it fully and permanently.

The context will tell whether the words holy spirit refer to God or to His gift. We certainly can't go by the capitalization they use in our English Bibles. The original texts were written in all capital letters, thus the capitalization or not in our modern Bibles are nothing more than the translator's opinion and should not be relied upon.

Take care.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
Yes. God is spirit and He is holy, hence He is often called the Holy Spirit. It is not another person, but a name or title of the one God who is one in every sense of the word. One is not three, nor is it two. One is one.

God also gives a gift of what He is, i.e. the gift of holy spirit which was first given on the day of Pentecost. A few OT folks had holy spirit, but it was conditional and temporary. Christians have it fully and permanently.

The context will tell whether the words holy spirit refer to God or to His gift. We certainly can't go by the capitalization they use in our English Bibles. The original texts were written in all capital letters, thus the capitalization or not in our modern Bibles are nothing more than the translator's opinion and should not be relied upon.

Take care.
I agree with you except I believe God is not separate from His gift the "holy Spirit". It should be capitalized. The gift of the holy Spirit is just the Spirit of God given by measure to people as if they are a clay vessel to hold water.

That's why Ephesians 4:6 says the Father is in you all. It speaks to those with the gift of the holy Spirit. God is literally living inside of them which makes them the temple of God. As Peter says

"and ye yourselves, as living stones, are built up, a spiritual house" (1 Peter 2:5)

And 1 Cor. 3:16 makes it really clear:

1 Corinthians 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?


edit:

I do agree that capitalization are just the translators opinion and we should go by context.
 
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