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Featured Why Didn't the Holy Spirit Know?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by rrobs, Feb 28, 2020.

  1. Duncan

    Duncan Member

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    No one is assured their place in paradise after the day of judgement, think of it that now we are all in a classroom having exam after exam, we give the papers and wait the results, However in the quraan it tells us the quality required to enter paradise, God tell us what you have to do to get access to paradise and it also tell us the quality of those that will inhabit the hellfire.
    Specific statements referring to people by name, stating that a particular person will be in Paradise or in Hell. This is not permissible except in cases where God or His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) have informed us of it. Whoever Allaah or His Messenger have mentioned by name and stated that they will be in Paradise are definitely among the people of Paradise, such as the ten who were given the good news of Paradise.
    Those who the Quran and Sunnah mention by name and state that they will be in Hell are definitely among the people of Hell.

    I hope that answer your question but once again my friend there are more to it in the Quran, that I hope you will continue and read :) but please feel free to ask me
     
  2. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    While I have no doubt that paradise will have it's share of Muslims, I do see one advantage the scriptures give to Christians.

    1Pet 1:3-5,

    3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

    4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

    5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.​

    Eph 1:14,

    Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
    Eph 4:30,

    And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
    There are other verses you may be familiar with, but these are sufficient to show that the Christians have a guaranteed place in paradise.

    Eph 2:6,

    And hath (past tense) raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:​

    In fact, as far as God is concerned, Christians are already there. Our stupid 5 senses keep us from realizing that, but when we die they die and we will see ourselves as God sees us.

    The rest of humanity will be judged in one of the two judgments mentioned at the end of Revelation. God gave Jesus the right to judge. He will judge all men, not so much by their outward actions, but by their heart. Since most people of all faiths are pretty decent folks who generally mean no harm to their neighbor, I suspect there will be plenty of people from all faiths for me to hang out with. That even includes Atheists. Also the proverbial native in the jungle who never heard of Jesus. I suspect most of them are pretty kind people whom Jesus will judge worthy.

    So the only difference and major advantage Christians enjoy, is the guaranteed acceptance into paradise while still alive in this world. Christians are freed from worrying about their worthiness. God has already judged them and they are found to be righteous, as righteous as God Himself.

    Rom 3:22,

    Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
    Am I being proud or pompous by saying I'm as righteous as God? Not at all. In fact I'd be proud and pompous if I argued with God that I am not as righteous as He is. If God said it, that settles it. My two bit pea brain only gets in the way of accepting what God says, so I'll not use it in matters of faith and practice. I'll just see what God says and believe it without question. Kinda neat living that way.

    Take care.
     
  3. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    The new birth does not affect one's flesh. The flesh remains as dead as ever. As such it will sin. Like I said, dogs bark, cats meow, cows moo, and people sin. You can't change the spots of a leopard. The flesh is sin nature and it will sin.

    The new birth is a spiritual thing. God creates a whole new creation in the born again believer. That is where the righteousness of God lies. Since it is God's workmanship (Eph 2:10) I would consider it blasphemous to think we can somehow tear it down. Remember, that workmanship includes incorruptible seed. Incorruptible is a simple enough concept; it does not corrupt. The scriptures say nothing about the sins we commit after the new birth somehow make the incorruptible into corruptible.

    So what about the sins we commit?

    1 John 1:9,

    If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
    No need for commentary on that verse. It is basically the same as what the Quran says, "Were you not to commit sins, Allah would create people who would commit sins and ask for forgiveness and He would forgive them.” At least I think so. Am I wrong?

    Even the Apostle Paul wrestled with his sinful flesh. The 7th chapter of Romans talks all about that. I love the conclusion;

    Rom 7:25,

    I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
    The more the Christian knows about the love and grace of God, the more they want to do what's right. There is no need to make resolutions or "take control" of one's flesh. It doesn't work anyway. The Galatians tried it and failed miserably.

    Gal 3:1-3,

    1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

    2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

    3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
    Yet a few more verses that hardly require a commentary. :)

    As far as I can tell, there is much in common with the scriptures and the Quran. I guess the major difference is the nature or the work Jesus accomplished when he was here.

    I think it is wonderful that you believe he is coming again. We'll both know the score then and will have some really good discussions, better than any we could possibly have in this life. I look forward to meeting you in person!
     
  4. Duncan

    Duncan Member

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  5. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe you are incorrect The Holy Spirit (Paraclete) is the Holy Spirit in believers. He should not be diminished because of where He is.

    I believe the Trinity is logical but there are views of it by people that are illogical. Perhaps you are one of those people but my view of the Trinity is eminently logical.

    I believe that is totally illogical. Where are yo getting other gods from. There is only one.

    I believe it does but it is not in agreement with scripture. I could posit that I am God and that would make sense but I am not God as I m sure would become evident.

    I do not believe you are doing that but you are adding your own sinful definitions.

    I believe through the Paraclete they are because it is One God in them just as God is in me and I am one with them also. That is the way it is with Jesus: God is in Him. The difference is that there is no sinful human spirit in Jesus as there is in us.

    I believe that is your way not mine.
     
  6. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    1 Cor 8:5-6,

    5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

    6 But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
    It is important to let the scriptures speak for themselves, without interjecting our own ideas.

    While many believe there is only one god, verse 5 clearly says there are many Gods. If we read the scriptures thinking there is only one god, we will not get the true picture. I must emphasize that I am not the one saying there are many gods.

    In light of verse 6, how can you possibly say that God the Son (words not actually found in the scriptures) is God? What is it about the words, "to us there is but one God, the Father" that you don't believe?

    We must change our believing to fit with the scriptures. If the scriptures say that the one God is the Father, then we must rid ourselves of any thoughts that say otherwise.

    There are several other verses that speak of other gods besides Yahweh. Let me know if you are interested in seeing them.
     
    #286 rrobs, Apr 27, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2020
  7. Sp0ckrates

    Sp0ckrates Member

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    My stupid analogy: The Son of God is to the human Jesus as the Internet is to a laptop. Just as a laptop cannot possibly hold all of the information available from the Internet, so too the human brain of Jesus couldn’t possibly hold all of the information known by the Son of God. Hence, no contradiction in Jesus saying he — “the son of man” — didn’t know what he — the Son of God — did know.
     
  8. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    So the Son of Man is a different person that the Son of God? There are really two Jesus? That is as bad as 3 Gods. How about one Jesus referred to with two different titles? Wouldn't that make more sense?
     
  9. Sp0ckrates

    Sp0ckrates Member

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    Interesting question! Not sure, but I’ll take the risk of committing to a position to see how well I can defend it:

    Jesus is two persons—one divine and one human; one the Son of God and one the son of Mary. Please free to ask the next question or to make an objection, and I’ll try to reply.
     
  10. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    Since God did not want to reveal the time, He said these words, to prevent others asking Him, or insisting on revealing it, or that the believes don't question why Jesus did not reveal the time of return explicitly in the Bible.
     
  11. Duncan

    Duncan Member

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    Hello spockrates

    interesting theory comparing Jesus peace be upon him to internet to explain the trinity allow me to give you my mathematical opinion on trinity, you see even if we use the Christian mathematical equation of "trinity", it does not add up. The Christian's technique of addition is that {Father}& {Son} & {Holy Spirit} are all "equal" and therefore 1.0. Yet the Bible gives us a different equation for the numerical value of Jesus.

    Jesus admits "..my Father is greater than I", {John 14:28}

    This subtracts a Decimal {-0.1}

    "I can of mine own self do nothing...," {John 5:30}

    This subtracts another decimal {-0.1}

    At this point, Jesus in no longer a complete 1.0 but now a {0.8}

    Now the list of figures are {Father} =1.0 {Jesus} = 0.8 and {Holy Spirit} = 1.0, Bringing the Total to {2.8}

    Reading and depending on the Bible, there is a "quantity" that is overlooked by Christians which has clear value in this equation. Jesus was baptized because He had to fulfill the legal requirements for entering into the priesthood like Melchizedek (Psalm 110:4; Heb. 5:8-10;6:20) Melchizedek has no beginning and no end, no Mother and no Father {Hebrew 7:3}, now that is what I call an immaculate conception!

    First, Jesus sought to be a High Priest like Melchizedek. Second, Melchizedek had a more miraculous birth, without a "mother" or "father", with no beginning or end, although Melchizedek clearly worshiped ONE God so we will give Melchizedek a value of {0.9}

    Now the total according to the Bible and Christian belief is {Father} =1.0 {Jesus} = 0.8 {Holy Spirit} = 1.0 and {Melchizedek} = 0.9

    Bringing the Total to {3.7}

    There are more variables which we can add for example Genesis 32:24-30 Jacob wrestles with God. God can not win against Jacob.

    This information would make Jacob a {1.1} the Father would remains at {1.0} since through out the Bible, Isaiah 43:10-11,Deuteronomy 4:39, Isaiah 45:18, Isaiah44:6, Isaiah45:6, Isaiah 45:22, Exodus 20:3, Exodus 34:14, the Bible "Clearly" States that God is {1.0}

    "For there is One God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus", (I Timothy 2:5).

    Of course I am not that good in math, there is a form of advanced mathematics in Christianity that I just can't comprehend, that is the "changing variables" Which means, at one point in the Bible, God is given a quantity and then later on that quantity is either subtracted from or added to or in other words, "fluctuating values".

    For example: God is given the value and quantity of "Never sleeping", (Psalm 121:4): "Behold, he that keepeth Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep." And Yet according to trinity then Jesus is supposed to have this "Equal" power but "Jesus sleeps"

    How can Jesus be 100% Equal if he worshipped God as any other mortal (Luke 5:16): "And he withdrew himself into the wilderness, and prayed."

    Jesus was tempted by Satan for forty days (Luke 4:1-13) but in James 1:13 is said: "...for God cannot be tempted with evil.."

    I am confused, If the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are "Equal", why doesn't the Bible "consistently" say they are equal instead of giving them and "others" changing values.

    I think I will refer to the "teachers edition" to get the answers to this complicated question "

    "O people of the book! commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was [no more or less than] a messenger of Allah, and His word, which he bestowed upon Mary, and a spirit preceding from Him: so believe in Allah and his messengers.

    Say not "Three": desist!, it is better for you, for Allah is one God, Glory be to Him, Far exalted is He above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and the earth. And enough is Allah as a disposer of affairs." Qur'an (4):171.

    Now it all makes sense, the Qur'an clarified what the Bible is saying. I would be going against the Bible itself if I had "unsupported inconsistent faith in trinity" because the Bible says: "For God is not the Author of confusion, but of peace.." (I Corinthians 14:33).
     
  12. Sp0ckrates

    Sp0ckrates Member

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    Hi, Duncan, thanks for the reply! Are you a follower of Islam? I’m curious as to why Muslims have the practice of adding, “pbuh” whenever they mention Jesus. Do you do so for all prophets?
    Can one be equal in nature but still greater in authority? For example, the leader of a mosque might have more authority than you, but does that mean he’s more than a human being?

    If there is only one God in three persons, then wouldn’t it also be true that the Father can do nothing without the Son?

    There are Christians who believe Melchizedek was an anthropomorphism—God the Father or God the Holy Spirit appearing in human form.
    I used to let my sons beat me in arm wrestling when they were young, because it made them happy. I think they knew I could have bested them, but they enjoyed the moments just the same.
    Many Christians believe Jesus is 100% God and 100% man at the same time. If this is so, why wouldn’t he be both God the Son and the man who mediates between humans and God the Father?
    Oh, you’re fine! I’m the same.
    Right. The human nature of Jesus slept while that nature was mortal.

    I get confused myself at times! There are things taught in the Bible that are beyond comprehension and can only be apprehended. One apprehends what the words mean, sees they are logical and accepts them as true, even though one doesn’t know how they are true.
    Why add the words, “no more or less” to the text?

    Paul was writing to the Corinthian church about arguments among themselves causing confusion about what that church should do to resolve them. They were following different leaders in the church who were opposed to one another, and he reminded them that they all must first of all be followers Jesus Christ, who God the Father will make ruler of all people.

    “For he ‘has put everything under his feet.’ Now when it says that everything has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.”
    (1 Corinthians 15)

    ***

    But I’m interested in hearing from you what the Koran has to say! Please tell me more.
     
    #292 Sp0ckrates, Apr 29, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2020
  13. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for your reply. First of all, there is no reason to defend the scriptures. They speak for themselves and need no defense. It is only our own ideas that need defending, and when those ideas go against the scriptures there really is no defense to be had.

    I think we should use the scriptures as our sole source of truth and doctrine. Do they say Jesus is two persons? I've not seen that in anywhere in the scriptures themselves.

    The scriptures do say Jesus was a man (Rom 5:15, Acts 2:22, 1 Tim 2:5, et.al.). There is not one verse anywhere that specifically says Jesus was divine. However, 2 Peter 1:4 does say we, as born again children of God, have a divine nature. You have the same nature as your father, but you are clearly not your father. Even a kitten has the same nature as it's parents. Yes, Jesus had God as his father and Mary as his mother. You are also have God as your Father and you have a mother, just like Jesus. If that makes Jesus God, why wouldn't it make us God?

    God uses words that are purified 7 times (Psalms 12:6). It is imperative that we read them in like manner. Introducing ideas into the scriptures that aren't specifically and clearly stated, indicates a lack of respect for the pure words God gave us. We need to be very careful.

    It appears that you have a preconceived idea that Jesus is God and that you introduce that preconceived idea into the scriptures where those ideas are simply not there. Please understand that I only say this because it is my sincere desire that the church returns to the pure words of God and nothing but those words. I do not judge nor do I mean to criticize your beliefs. I only pray that one day we get back to preaching the Jesus that Paul preached and no other Jesus (2 Cor 11:4)

    Take care and God bless you as you continue your studies of God's wonderful, matchless word.
     
  14. Duncan

    Duncan Member

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    Hello Spockrates, Thank your questions, I will do my best to answer to all of them. I am indeed a Muslim. Do you know what Islam mean and Muslim mean? PBUH mean peace be upon him. Muslims use these words to show respect to one of God's Prophets when mentioning his name. So it is a Command from God, the Quraan instructs believers to wish blessings upon the Prophet, and be respectful in addressing him, in the following verse:

    "Allah and His angels send blessings upon the Prophet. Oh you who believe! Send blessings upon him, and salute him with all respect" (33:56).

    No one is equal to God as mentioned earlier Jesus admits "..my Father is greater than I", john 14:28} God has authority over everything that exist and Jesus had authority over the sons of Israel. God is God nothing is equal to him and nothing can be Associated to him. God told us who he is in the Quraan allow me to share with you the verse:
    In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
    Say: He is Allah, the One and Only! Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;He begetteth not nor is He begotten.And there is none like unto Him.

    That absolutely doesn't make any sense, here the verse is very very clear, Jesus said I can`t do nothing without the father( the father here means God, the creator) because the Father doesn`t need us, we need him.

    I can prove you from the bible in Greek in Hebrew in Arabic that Jesus is not God, but if you tell me that someone is saying that he is God and the son and the man all in once I will tell take him to psychiatrie for evaluation. because Jesus never said he is God never said to worship him, he was sent by God with miracles to the people of Israel as a prophet to invite people to worship One God and to do not associate anything with him.

    It is to say that he is no more than a prophet and no less than a prophet but a man son of marry

    I hope I answered to the question but please feel free to ask me anything . and hope to read from you soon :)
     
  15. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    It seems that in order to support a preconceived idea, you are speculating on why God wrote, "But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."

    Can't you just accept the simple assertion that only Jesus' Father knew the time and therefore neither the son nor the supposed 3rd person knew the day and hour? Instead of making up possible reasons for Jesus not telling them the time, why can't you just accept the meaning of the words which say only the Father knows. The reason Jesus didn't tell them is quite simple; he didn't know. Strange that one part of God knows but another doesn't. The problem vanishes the moment we accept that there really is only one God, the Father (1 Cor 8:6). Then it makes sense.

    Maybe this verse will help.

    Mark 13:32,

    But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
    The Father knew something the son did not know. If the son is God, we need some pretty fancy word twisting to explain Mark 13:32. I wouldn't know where to begin.
     
    #295 rrobs, Apr 29, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2020
  16. TheTruthReaper

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    Is Jesus your God?
     
  17. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    No, I cannot accept that, because, if you read other passages of the Bible, Jesus describes the events related to the time of His return, and in some instances He even makes a reference to some passages of the Old Testament, such as the visions that the prophets had, including the time of End, given by prophets in a figurative language. So, obviously He knew of the time of His return. Can you think of a logical reason why should the Father even keep it a secret from the son? Should we just accept everything Bible says literally, or consider there could be some wisdom in it? Why not? And if you say, we should just accept what Bible says as is, why don't we just accept, "whoever's has seen the Christ has seen the Father".
     
  18. Sp0ckrates

    Sp0ckrates Member

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    I’ve heard Evangelicals who believe Jesus is God also say the scriptures don’t need defending. They defend themselves. Since they say the same, doesn’t that mean what they say isn’t true?

    Personally, I find it difficult to read John’s gospel and say he believed Jesus was only human. Are you thinking some books of the Bible are reliable sources on which to base Christian doctrine and others — like the Gospel of John — are not?
    Thank you for your concern and sincere counsel! If you care to say, please tell me: Are you a Latter Day Saint, Jehovah’s Witness, Oneness Pentecostal, United Church if God, Unitarian or some other flavor of Christian?
     
    #298 Sp0ckrates, Apr 29, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2020
  19. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    It's not an all or nothing thing. Some of what they say is true (no defense needed) and some is false (Jesus is God).

    Do you find it equally difficult to believe the 3 verses I quoted that specifically call Jesus a man (Rom 5:15, Acts 2:22, 1 Tim 2:5)?

    God had a specific reason for inspiring John to write his gospel.

    John 20:30-31,

    30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

    31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.​

    Sorry, but it doesn't say it was written so we might believe that Jesus is God.

    None of the above. I'm just a non-Platonic believer in the scriptures.

    Take care.
     
  20. Sp0ckrates

    Sp0ckrates Member

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    I mean, please let me know if you want to discuss why I think John believed Jesus was God.
     
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