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why did they want to crucify jesus

S

steeltoes

Junior member
fantôme profane;3797224 said:
Why do you think that the "mythical Jesus" is not also speculation? Either way you are engaged in speculation. The only question is that which speculation is based on the better evidence.
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Why else apply good historical information to a story lined account if not to make it real?

We constantly are reminded that these events in the gospels could not have happened as they were written which in turn generates speculation as to how they would have really and truly happened should we apply good historical information to them. For example Jesus' body would have been tossed and eaten by animals because that is how it was done.

Why bother with how it was done when the story reads perfectly as it is. If the events could not have happened as they were written it is probably because we are reading fiction. I don't have a problem with fiction, do you?
 
Sabour

Sabour

Well-Known Member
Sleeppy said:
All of Allah's creation are subservient to Him-- not only the angels and jinn, but all of His creation. There is no free will; not even Allah is free, because He is constrained in Himself, having one unchangeable, indivisible will. God introduced Himself first, as "I AM". Mankind is in the image of the Most High, saying "we are". And this is why the messengers remind us again, and again saying, "The LORD, your God is One." As mere ignorant men, we perceive ourselves as the gods of the earth, doing our individual wills. God is God, and His creations are His will being done.


Happiness is God's to give and take. He gives what He wills, and everyone and everything will continue in His will.
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Not really.

There is freewill, but Allah knows you better than you know yourself.

You are mixing between the two
 
D

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
steeltoes said:
I don't have a problem with fiction,
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I think many people want their own fiction. They gaze into their crystal balls and are able to 'figure out' what happened. Hey, it's not fiction if the person really applies their own perspective and bias to it! Oh, wait, it is.
 
Bunyip

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
fantôme profane;3797224 said:
Why do you think that the "mythical Jesus" is not also speculation? Either way you are engaged in speculation. The only question is that which speculation is based on the better evidence.
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Well the mythical Jesus is not speculation because that he was mythical is simply the default.
The historicity of a given character can be evidenced and evaluated, but the mythicicsm of that character can not.

That a given person was historical is a positive claim and one that can be evidenced. That a person was not historical can not, you can't prove that kind of negative.
I have seen this idea a lot here, where the case for mythicism is given the burden of proof whilst the case for historicity generally revolves around imagining the case to be settled.

Funny how you never see people who challenge any other aspects of ancient history called 'mythicists' and getting asked by other researchers to prove mythicism. (mainly because in any other historical field that would get you laughed out of the room.)
 
Thana

Thana

Lady
0ne-answer said:
So, you say Jesus peace be upon him was crucified and he did not come to fulfill the law as he said? This is what my OP is addressing
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You completely ignored my post to ask a question you already know the answer to.

disciple said:
Lol it's assumed He's not.

Only Christians think Jesus is the Messiah.

Wow.
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Historians don't make those claims because they're historians.
 
C

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
CynthiaCypher said:
He was sentence to death for a political crime. He committed treason against the state and in Roman law that merited death by crucifixion. He was a revolutionary who was teaching the non-violent overthrow of the state. He was also advocating a revolutionary message. He was a proto anarcho-socialist teacher and his message was viewed as threatening to both state and religious establishment. That's why they killed him. Treason.
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I don't think Jesus was nonviolent. I think His followers downplayed that aspect of His ministry afterwards for obvious reasons. Pilate must have believed Jesus was a real threat in some way. The Romans didn't go to the bother of crucifixion if a quick thrust of a spear would do what they thought needed.

That's also why the teachings attributed to Him are full of contradictions. Some are about peace and some about strife. What He was after was a peaceful Judea without pagan Romans or their Jewish collaborators. That was what He meant by "Kingdom of Heaven". By whatever means necessary.

Of course, the folks who really knew Jesus were hardly likely to let Paul know about this. So Paul started a religion based on the stuff Jesus' disciples were willing to share with a known persecutor. Just the nice stuff, not the important stuff.

This is how it seems to me anyway. No other explanation for the story as told makes any sense to me.

Tom
 
Sabour

Sabour

Well-Known Member
Thana said:
You completely ignored my post to ask a question you already know the answer to.
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I didn't ignore it, I read it and didn't see it addressing what I am talking about. There were many links and it was confusing. Can you write it in your own words if you think it does answer my question ?
 
Sleeppy

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
0ne-answer said:
Not really.

There is freewill, but Allah knows you better than you know yourself.

You are mixing between the two
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Allah knows all things, past, present and future. Your ignorance makes you an idol to yourself, and a blasphemer. But, God provides you with all He determines to.
 
Sabour

Sabour

Well-Known Member
What do you exactly mean by God provides you with all He determines too. What is your point ?
 
CynthiaCypher

CynthiaCypher

Well-Known Member
outhouse said:
Where did you pull this from????


He didnt have enough followers to do that. Nor could they have stopped anything at all. Were talking about hundreds of thousands of people
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I think it is in Mark 11 or John. But Jesus' group probably had alliances with other Nazarenes or Zealots and they could have organized this action together. I think it is obvious that Jesus had allied himself with both the Nazarenes and the Zealots.
 
outhouse

outhouse

Atheistically
CynthiaCypher said:
I think it is in Mark 11 or John. But Jesus' group probably had alliances with other Nazarenes or Zealots and they could have organized this action together. I think it is obvious that Jesus had allied himself with both the Nazarenes and the Zealots.
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All indications are that Nazarenes are a later development.


I believe he was a Zealot, but we really have very little to go on here.


What actually happened in the temple is unknown. There is a OT passage about throwing furniture that "may" have been used here.


At best we can only say there was a disturbance
 
D

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
CynthiaCypher said:
I think it is in Mark 11 or John. But Jesus' group probably had alliances with other Nazarenes or Zealots and they could have organized this action together. I think it is obvious that Jesus had allied himself with both the Nazarenes and the Zealots.
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The Greatest Master is called 'The Nazarene".;)
 
Sleeppy

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
0ne-answer said:
What do you exactly mean by God provides you with all He determines too. What is your point ?
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That God, the Most High, is not subverted by you or I. You'll be blessed to discontinue believing and repeating the lie that He is subverted by the wills of men.


And this will also answer any question you've presented in this thread.
 
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