1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Why did the world reject the Messiah when He Did come?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Tony Bristow-Stagg, Aug 30, 2019.

  1. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2019
    Messages:
    3,155
    Ratings:
    +2,255
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Owkay.

    Doesn't make any sense to me though.
     
    • Creative Creative x 1
  2. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2018
    Messages:
    5,107
    Ratings:
    +2,756
    Religion:
    Sanathana Dharma [The Eternal Religion]
    I was talking about Messengers (that is per definition a "real Messenger").
    I was not talking about "humans pretending to be Messengers"
    So to answer your question "NO, I am not saying we should accept them all; just the Messengers, not the 'pretend Messenger'."
     
  3. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2011
    Messages:
    28,429
    Ratings:
    +12,607
    Religion:
    Saivite Hindu
    Who determines which ones are pretend or not? Meher Baba claimed himself to be an avatar, and had followers. The leaders of several Islamic sects claimed messiah-hood as well.

    For me personally, I can only determine for myself, not anyone else. My determination is that there is no such thing as a messiah, avatar, prophet, or messenger. There are wise men and wise teachers certainly.

    Edited for this link .... List of avatar claimants - Wikipedia
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. Shad

    Shad Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2014
    Messages:
    14,299
    Ratings:
    +3,221
    Religion:
    Theological noncognitivist
    Assertion.

    You are just using the verse to fit your religion and a self-proclaimed point. Beside all I see is useless knowledge from Bab or Bahau'llah.

    Again just assertions
     
    • Like Like x 3
  5. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2018
    Messages:
    5,107
    Ratings:
    +2,756
    Religion:
    Sanathana Dharma [The Eternal Religion]
    I agree, that we can only determine for ourselves which ones are pretend or not.
    Even that is problematic for me, because a real Messenger/Avatar is way above my head.

    I like evolution, improving myself. And when a fool shows me a good lesson, I accept
    And when someone claims to be Avatar or Saint, but teachings feels not good I discard
    Even if God personally comes in a vision and tells me BS, I will discard

    Aha, did you personally add Sai Baba to this List?:)
     
  6. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2011
    Messages:
    28,429
    Ratings:
    +12,607
    Religion:
    Saivite Hindu
    I've known a lot of Sai Baba devotees over the years. The first guy I met was rather overly enthusiastic, but like in many of these situations, everyone seems to mellow over time. Even that guy has mellowed. I truly admire those who took the main message of 'Love All, Serve All' seriously. One of our best friends here got that message loud and clear. She 'teaches' (more like leads) a senior's yoga group, and is a gift and example to humanity. Always in a good mood.

    But as you probably know, there are already 5 or more Prema Sai claimants. And so it goes. In the new age world, there are lots. For me, it's really easy as I reject all the claims ... not part of Saivism.

    more links to the concept's history ... Messiah - New World Encyclopedia
     
  7. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2018
    Messages:
    5,107
    Ratings:
    +2,756
    Religion:
    Sanathana Dharma [The Eternal Religion]
    What I really liked about Sai Baba, was the simple teaching. He once said "You don't need to know the whole Bible ... just practice `Hurt Never Help Ever`.". Once I had an interview with Sai Baba, and I was thinking "Help Ever" is not so easy, as I don't know what is good for others, but at least "Hurt Never" is pretty easy (esp. for me being a pleaser ... never hurting others, but in the process hurting myself a lot). Immediately Sai Baba looked at me, and told me "Help Ever".

    Only 5 so far, I am amazed. I was expecting that there might be a few 100 by now. Prema is quite a common name in India.
    I remember in India seeing lots of booklets with titles like "talk yourself into being computer expert" etc.
    So my guess was that there will be lots of Indians "talking themselves into being Prema Sai"

    Sai baba said "no need to wait for Prema Sai", so this does not occupy me
    Though, if Sai Baba, as Prema Sai, would invite me in a dream or vision to come (giving exact address including house number), I probably will go
    But He should show me in my vision how He looks like, so there will be no confusion. I have learned to be very specific, when trusting visions
    Of course God's Maya will always fool me, but if He goes this far (exact address/number+face), then I just go along with the ride:) or better flight
     
  8. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Messages:
    7,761
    Ratings:
    +3,094
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    The past Messengers knew only too well the way this world works. Thus there is ample guidance and warnings from them, for us to be wise and just in our search to sort out who may be the wolves in sheeps clothing.

    I know you are happy in your path, thus that guidance is available to those that arr not happy and want to find the Messiah.

    Regards Tony
     
  9. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2011
    Messages:
    28,429
    Ratings:
    +12,607
    Religion:
    Saivite Hindu
    Looking for a Messiah means you need someone else to tell you how to think. Seems like a cop out for thinking to me. Let someone else do the hard work, then convince yourself you believe in him. When I see something that seems hard to understand, I observe it closely, then go meditate on it, reflect on it, and maybe ask an expert. (Like a doctor, if it's a personal medical thing.) But in the outward looking faiths, the first thing to do is pick up a book and try to figure out what some guy from the past said. Often something pops out at you that you can distort just enough to make sense of.

    Let's look at the two approaches as it would concern homosexuality, for example.

    For me, I would watch two gay people and how they interact. I'd notice the obvious love, the obvious caring, even the obvious attraction. And I'd accept that as part of the diversity of human life. It would be entirely from observation, not from what my Guru wrote (although that would confirm my own conclusions as He (they) were also good observers.

    The opposite strategy is to pick up a book, find all the hate filled stuff some others have written and go with that. So which approach do people want to take. Mine, admittedly, is a bit more difficult, takes a bit more time, but in the end it has more than a bit more love to my fellow humans.

    As you say, this choice is yours. Use your eyes to see, or use your eyes to read.
     
    #89 Vinayaka, Sep 1, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2019
    • Like Like x 2
  10. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Messages:
    7,761
    Ratings:
    +3,094
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    Assertions that can be investigated to see if there is any foundation in Truth.

    As an example about the knowledge quote;

    If we look at the progress of man in science and discovery, we get to see a long steady rise since records began until the 1800's. Then in the 1800's the line begins to shoot skywards and continues to do so.

    Thus the Assertion can be shown to be valid and we can consider the Bab did open the door of that knowledge. Which then also supports the posted Biblical verse. You do not have to see it that way, that is your choice.

    Also we have a bonus thought. The first Message ever sent accross the wires, opening the door to modern communications, was taken from the book of Numbers, 'What has God Wrought?" That was the day after the Bab declared in May 1844. Another way to view as to how 25 letters of knowledge were released by God.

    You also get to choose if that is useless knowledge, but for me it is just plain wonderfully amazing and thank God for that. :)

    Regards Tony
     
  11. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Messages:
    7,761
    Ratings:
    +3,094
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    We could do it all again, but just be happy Vinayaka, you have your choices.

    One point I will comment on, is when you said you would consult an expert.

    I see the Messiah as the expert in all things.

    Regards Tony
     
  12. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2011
    Messages:
    28,429
    Ratings:
    +12,607
    Religion:
    Saivite Hindu
    Indeed you do.

    What did he say about computers?
    What did he say about electric cars?
    Television?
    Donald Trump?
    Indigenous peoples?
    Nuclear bombs?
    Brexit?

    Yup, he's an expert all right. Of course, as I mentioned earlier, you can just go to the massive library of delusional mumbo-jumbo and find something that vaguely relates in some offbeat way, quote it, and then claim it's hard evidence. We've been down that road before.

    But this is a good thing you do that. It shows the inanity of it all. I would think it beneficial to anyone even remotely considering Baha'i as a possible faith to pursue, as it would lead then in the right direction. Away, and fast.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Messages:
    7,761
    Ratings:
    +3,094
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    I can answer those questions if you so wish, but I suspect you asked the questions not wanting answers. :)

    If we worry you, or are a concern to you, why do you choose to post?

    Regards Tony
     
  14. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2011
    Messages:
    28,429
    Ratings:
    +12,607
    Religion:
    Saivite Hindu
    Someone has to do the dirty work of calling out proselytising, otherwise it gets unrestrained. But I see a few others have been up for the task, it does take time, and all us folks with that evil anti-Baha'i agenda sort of take turns. Call it the anti-Baha'i club if you wish.

    As for experts, I can see that next time you get ill, you'll most likely just pick up a book and see the answer for which meds to take right there. Why bother with a doctor, eh? Heck, the Messiah might even do great stitches if you get cut in the landscaping work.

    But I'll take your advice for now. May it rain in Queensland. (A friend's daughter is studying law in Brisbane.)
     
  15. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,620
    Ratings:
    +1,681
    May as well explain that random garbage, and it's incorrect use of the name G-d.

    Linguistically, academically, and religiously, 'G-d', is a name, when used without specification, ie when used as a word, or description.

    It's the name of the Biblical G-d.

    Thusly, there are other name correlates, however only a certain amount.

    El Shaddai,
    El Elohim
    Elohim
    El Elyon
    And other names.

    JHVH, or the Tetragrammaton , is generally accepted as a name correlate, although that isn't 'totally direct', which is why usually, they use Lord, in the Scripture, for the Tetragrammaton .

    Although uncommon, in the English Bible, KJV, they did write 'G-d', for the Tetragrammaton, though again, it's not common in the English Bible, and actually isn't a direct name correlate.

    When used as word, or description,
    The god Thor
    The god Zeus
    False gods
    Other gods

    So forth, it has a specification as to which 'other deity', or description, it is referring to.

    In other words, God as a name, is direct word, and direct inference, [religion combined with literal inference, and not a 'general description', when used without specification.
     
    #95 Desert Snake, Sep 1, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2019
  16. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2018
    Messages:
    5,107
    Ratings:
    +2,756
    Religion:
    Sanathana Dharma [The Eternal Religion]
    Thank you for your explanation about "G-d"

    I use "God", as I am talking from Hindu view. There I never came across "G-d"
    (You asked me "So... what is the difference between what I said, and your quote from the Gita?...")

    So, you calling my use of God "random garbage" feels quite disrespectful
    At least add "in my humble opinion" next time when using such forceful words
     
  17. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,620
    Ratings:
    +1,681
    Hence although there can be agreement on the use of that name, used without specification, it certainly doesn't mean 'any deity'.

    Agreement is called syncreticism, and is a tedious process of comparison, with 'rules', that have to be followed, so one doesn't get obfuscation, contradiction, so forth.

    So, are there names for God in other languages? [Besides the direct cross language correlates? I believe so, however again, it doesn't correlate to 'any deity', as a name.
     
    #97 Desert Snake, Sep 1, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2019
  18. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,620
    Ratings:
    +1,681
    G-d and God are the same, when used as a name, without specification. I and some Jews write 'G-d', and I do that on occasion, or contextually, it's just a religious and linguistic observation.

    Hence the English name for my god, is God.
     
  19. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2018
    Messages:
    5,107
    Ratings:
    +2,756
    Religion:
    Sanathana Dharma [The Eternal Religion]
    When I use the name "God", I don't mean deity
    In french "God" is called "Dieu"
     
  20. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,620
    Ratings:
    +1,681
    It isn't ' in my humble opinion', it's linguistic reference to who and what is being talked about. If you write 'g-d', as a name without specification, I correlate it to the direct word usage, thusly if you use it incorrectly, it isn't clear, and is obfuscatory, in any conversation relating to theistic matters.
     
Loading...