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Featured Why did the wages of sin need a Judas in order to fulfill the promise given to Eve?

Discussion in 'Theological Concepts' started by AdamjEdgar, Feb 20, 2022.

  1. MyM

    MyM Well-Known Member

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    In Islam, Jesus was sent as a messenger of Allah. In Christianity he was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Jesus didn't come to teach anything new. In fact, in Islam, he was to carry on the message of ONE GOD. Not the trinity for in the OT, it's clearly shown that the trinity wasn't there. All the prophets and messengers in the Old Testament taught ONE GOD not three in one.

    Jesus in Islam, is one of the mightiest messengers of Allah. He did everything miraculous with the permission of Allah. He was born from the virgin Maryam who was chosen above all women in all nations. He was a blessing. In Islam, we believe Jesus (on him peace) will be coming back and will finish what he is to do. (Kill the anti-christ) He will do many things but that is one of the main things that will happen. He will break the crosses for they represent something that is attributed unto him without him ever saying so or doing so. He will abolish the jizya (taxes) and there will be peace on earth for some time....then things will really start happening....
     
  2. pearl

    pearl Well-Known Member

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    If we put aside the narrative, there are possible other reasons for his betrayal. If there is any historical truth to Judas a Zealot, he was possibly disillusioned by Jesus' 'love and peace' and understood Jesus as betraying the movement.
     
  3. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    The reason the 'trinity' does not appear (noticeably) in the Tanakh is because God had not come to earth to dwell as a man.

    In the Gospels, God makes His appearance amongst men, and in the rest of the NT we learn about the Holy Spirit, as God's enduring presence amongst, and within, his people.

    The Father is above, amongst, and within - according to the Christian perspective.
     
  4. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    It wasn’t a requirement that Judas was the one to betray Jesus. The rejection of Jesus was inevitable. He foreknew the events and allowed it to happen. Thus “go and do what you must do” was just a way of saying that Judas made up his mind to betray his friend.

    They thought they were getting rid of Jesus when in fact their problems with him had just begun.
     
    #24 cOLTER, Feb 20, 2022
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2022
  5. Eyes to See

    Eyes to See Well-Known Member

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    You're thinking too much into this, or not thinking of it in the right vein. Judas did not have to betray Jesus. He did it of his own freewill, it was foretold that he would, and he did. The Bible says that Satan entered into Judas when he betrayed Jesus, so ultimately it was Satan who was behind it all. And the prophecy in Genesis 3:15 said that the serpent (Satan) would bruise the offspring of the woman (Jesus) in the heel (the death wound that was healed after his resurrection).

    I would also like to point out this thought as well. Why did Judas kiss Jesus to give him away? It was because he could not be distinguished from among the other apostles, or Jews for that matter. People seem to like to depict Jesus as looking different from the other Jews around him, longer hair, pale, more frail, but he was actually a strong, able-bodied man, and looked just like any other man of his day. That is why Judas had to point him out to the others.
     
  6. AdamjEdgar

    AdamjEdgar Member

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    Considering Jesus obvious fame in the whole area of judea and certainly Jerusalem, would the soldiers not have already known what he looked like? The Pharisees and priests certainly were very familiar with him...these soldiers who arrested him were employed by the Sanhedrin not the Romans...they would have surely known him. These soldiers were likely even Jewish.

    My point is, almost always the stories of the Bible have a broader meaning and reason for inclusion...they are not just random additions.

    When we look at the story of the Messiah, this story is a critical /key element in salvation .

    The sanctuary service also depicts/prophesied the crucifixion event in the slaying of the lamb to make atonement for sin.

    We know the priest lays blame for sin on the scapegoat which is then cast out into the wilderness...this has meaning.

    The point is, where does Judas betrayal fit into the sanctuary service?

    I asked a retired minister this question yesterday and his answer started out by stating that in all his time as a minister he had never been asked this question.

    This is not a simple Judas betrayal with a kiss question. Jesus knew what Judas was really like, he knew what was in his heart...there was no surprise in his betrayal. To me that suggests it had a deeper meaning...it was representative of something outside of the specific event itself. I am thinking it therefore had an historical or future relevance. I'm looking first at the Sanctuary service for guidance because this service spans the entire Bible theme.
     
    #26 AdamjEdgar, Feb 20, 2022
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2022
  7. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    Judas had to point Jesus out to the Roman soldiers because they didn’t have any issues with him previously. Under occupation the Sanhedrin had to enlist the Romans to carry out the arrest and subsequent death penalty that they sought. The teachings of a spiritual kingdom didn’t offend the Romans in Israel.
     
  8. AdamjEdgar

    AdamjEdgar Member

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    yes but we must remember, these were not Roman soldiers who arrested him, they were employed Jewish ones...sanhedran soldiers. These guys would have known of the fame of Jesus...so the need to identify him is of no value in of itself.

    I am doing some research of scholarly papers on this and i found one which has noted the following:

    The word Iscariot literally means “the man from Kerioth.” Kerioth was a town in southern Judea. Thus Judas was the only non-Galilean among the 12 apostles. II. Judas, the apostate
    “This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein”
    He was a traitor—No less than 16 times does the New Testament speak of Judas’s sin in betraying Christ. Satan put the desire in Judas’s heart to betray Christ
    The price received for Judas’s crime—“Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went unto the chief priests, And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver. And from that time he sought opportunity to betray him

    It seems to me that perhaps the timeline of Judas arrangement with the priests for thirty pieces of silver predates the arrest by a lot longer than just a day or two. In any case, there is another bible story where a similar event took place...recall the sale of Joseph into slavery by his own brothers for 20 pieces of silver. We have tended to read that story as a terrible act of inhumanity by his own family, and yet, it served the greater good. Out of it came the salvation of Josephs own people in the terrible famine that struck the land many years later. Without Joseph's betrayal at the hands of his own brothers, almost certainly his family would have suffered, indeed perhaps even died, in the famine that followed decades later. This suggests to me that the story of Joseph is linked with the story of Judas and Jesus. At the hands of a betrayer comes salvation.

    My thought is that this perhaps even links with the "shining cherub" (defined as Lucifer) betraying his own creator in heaven.

    So now we are beginning to see i think that there should be a link between these stories and the OT Sanctuary service/s. It could even be simply something related to the camp of the Israelites...perhaps the mixed multitude who regularly started murmurings/grumblings amongst the faithful in the camp?

    a little trivia...Judas was the only disciple who:
    1. was not Galilean
    2. asked Jesus to become a disciple rather than be selected/sort by the master
     
  9. AdamjEdgar

    AdamjEdgar Member

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    and following on from the above...with reference to Satan, the author of the scholarly paper im reading notes that the betrayal takes place in a garden. Of course we all know this, but what is the significance of this location?
    The place of Judas’s crime—“When Jesus had spoken these words, he went forth with his disciples over the brook Cedron, where was a garden, into the which he entered, and his disciples. And Judas also, which betrayed him, knew the place: for Jesus ofttimes resorted thither with his disciples.
    I find it interesting that as it is in a garden where this happens, whilst we know that Joseph was betrayed out in the field away from the care of his father, and was cast down into a pit by his brother,...the messiah betrayal event seems to parrallel what Satan did in the garden of Eden where God often enterred to commune with his creation as found in the Genesis 3:8
     
    #29 AdamjEdgar, Feb 20, 2022
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2022
  10. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    I see your point about the "Temple guards". In Johns Gospel we learn that Roman soldiers were present as well.

    "The leading priests and Pharisees had given Judas a contingent of Roman soldiers and Temple guards to accompany him. Now with blazing torches, lanterns, and weapons, they arrived at the olive grove."

    In Judas's confused mind he thought there would be much more fanfare by the Sanhedrin for turning Jesus over to the authorities when in fact they had contempt for Judas. The cost of a common slave was an insult to Judas and Jesus as well.

    But the need to "id" Jesus is curious.
     
  11. Eyes to See

    Eyes to See Well-Known Member

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    Jesus physically, did not stick out of a crowd. And there were plenty of people who never saw him even if they had heard of him. We know that those whom Judas betrayed him to couldn't distinguish him from his apostles. Because you see he told them he would give them a sign of who he was by giving him a kiss:

    "Now his betrayer had given them a sign, saying: “Whoever it is I kiss, he is the one; take him into custody.”-Matthew 26:48. No where do scriptures indicate that everyone knew what he looked like. And you can infer from this passage that those who went to arrest him did not know who he was. It would have been pointless to show them which one of the men he was if they already knew which of the men he was.
     
    #31 Eyes to See, Feb 20, 2022
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2022
  12. Eyes to See

    Eyes to See Well-Known Member

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    Judas let his evil nature get him, just as Satan did. Revelation said a 1/3 of the heavens fell with Satan, that is a lot of angels. Judas was 1 out of 12. And he was chosen as an apostle after a year of Jesus' ministry on earth, and after he deliberated over it a long time and a whole night of prayer. So the point is anyone can go bad. Satan was a son of God he chose to become evil. Judas was a chosen apostle, a close friend to Jesus. If 1 out of every 12 of the chosen fall then 12,000 will fall. I am not saying that is what it means. But it does mean you should not be surprised if a close intimate acquiescence turns on and betrays you. It happened to Jehovah God, and to Jesus Christ. It can happen to you.

    "Even the man at peace with me, one whom I trusted,
    Who was eating my bread, has lifted his heel against me
    ."
    -Psalms 41:9.
     
  13. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    In the suns earth first unnatural attack.

    Natural history.

    Should a sun have attacked a cold crystal faced earth with a cold gas heavens?

    No. It's not real as a thesis.

    It was a reactive cause. Earth first. One. Heavens first one.

    Status human I live on earth.

    My actual big bang thesis was consciously by living and light a cold sun burst attacked earth.

    Is not O a fixed maths circumstance and I lied. As reason a O body controls holds owns reactions O like earth does. Inside itself.

    Man a Judas of his own man self first the atheist.

    Why natural humans know atheist is an evil minded human by intent. I am equal but I want power.

    Self destructive human criminal behaviour chosen as spiritually living is first against family.

    Question who is the best spiritual criminal organisation who'll save us today?

    Based on I was always taught science was wrong!
     
  14. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    Even balances man theist living on earth in balanced atmosphere.

    12 hours light counted by him personally.
    12 hours darkness counted by him personally.

    Lit up night sky why he named it even ING by thin King. Even to eve.

    Night is the skies man given first name. Quoted it evening so future sophists cannot lie about causes. Men of science did it.

    K old science of man Inferred constant. Converting. Converting in science chosen by men only.

    Became eve. A teaching only.

    Eve he saidis man's owned lying word coercing stories first. Sophism maths pi O and phi O. Two. Both one of only status is not constant.

    Crossed the pi phi OO. Did it himself by formula addition + when no extra anything existed.

    Lied.

    He said numbers came out of o mass when it opened. His formula magically worked. God opened. Numbers come out of wild reactions he said. Conversions.

    Lying every moment his own Judas life sacrificed. MAn of man choice.

    Spiritual life natural life of man woman two in nature. Equal. Woman never wrong his teaching. Is my human mother who I hurt also.

    Garden evicted he said. Had to cover their bodies with cloth and were irradiated in fallout.

    I lost a huge earth garden body. I lost earths water oxygenation generation.

    Pressure above us by Christ gas mass. One body only removed. Natural CH gas.

    So pressure changed.

    Water lifted off the ground in a huge wave. Thunder lightning erupted I thought we will all die. After ice saviour existed.

    Ground pressure shifted to a naturally thin atmosphere. So it's pressure by mass accumulation cumulus occurred.

    Our ears bled. It blasted us. Our brains bled. Our cell bodies bled by pressure of living Cells held in holy water O changed their holding of a O God earth.

    It caused cell chemistry to leech. I smelt perfume by chemical conversion.

    Above us gods cloud angels saved us from evil star fall particles. Dispersed it so the vacuum voided was caused the extra.

    Eventually pressures changed in cooling water mass ground taken as ground mass was burning too so the gained falling star attack disappears until it returns.

    By waters mass exodus.

    We don't want to ever re Inherit UFO star causes said humanity.

    A teaching why.

    Moses the mountains burnt fell into disintegration as the law earth fusion was broken of stone.... as we used melt converting. Took the ground water by ark landing hits a UFO cause.

    A teaching against nuclear converting chosen science.
     
  15. blü 2

    blü 2 Veteran Member
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    In the musical Jesus Christ, Superstar, the point is clearly and correctly made that Jesus uses Judas to accomplish his purpose.

    What purpose? The gospels are unambiguous. Right at the beginning, Jesus says that his mission is going to end in his death. For this purpose he goes to Jerusalem at a sensitive time, he knows it's dangerous but refuses to flee, he has a moment of doubt in the garden but God won't let him off the hook, he needs instead to make sure he's arrested (which is Judas' job), he goes quietly, and he gets to be killed exactly as planned.

    Why? What on earth was God trying to achieve by sacrificing [his] own son to [him]self? What could such an act achieve that one snap of those omnipotent and benevolent fingers could not?

    I have no idea. And when I ran >a thread on the question<, no one else did either.

    Strange.
     
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  16. Davi Carvalho

    Davi Carvalho New Member

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    Mark 14:1-2 says the chief priests and scribes were scheming to arrest Jesus and kill Him, but the Passover celebration was only two days ahead, and they didn't want to do it during that feast. So they wanted to wait until it was over. But the Lord's plan didn't allow them to wait any further, and Jesus was arrested to be killed during the Passover, because the Passover was a prophecy to His sacrifice. In that time, the Bible shows that He was only with the twelve apostles, so His whereabouts weren't so public. Hence, it was necessary for someone to tell the priests where He was. Also, in John 17:12, Jesus says the betrayal of Judas was the fulfillment of the prophecy in Psalms 41:9. So it was necessary for someone to betray Him like that, so the prophecy would be fulfilled. About the second part of your question, where you ask about the Old Testament service, I don't know the answer yet, but I'll post it here in case I find something. Best regards!
     
  17. Jacob Samuelson

    Jacob Samuelson Active Member

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    Betrayal wasn't unique to Judas, nor do I think Judas had to betray Jesus for the result to conclude with his eventual crucifixion. I like to think of Judas's betrayal akin to Lucifer's betrayal to God. I don't believe that Lucifer, the Son of the Morning, was the originator of evil. Meaning he didn't have to deny God to be cast out for rebellion for the plan of salvation to occur. It appears that Lucifer was influenced to become Satan by a more earlier origin of evil. In this case, the snake didn't have be in the Garden for Eve to partake of the Fruit. The snakes and Judas's contribution to the plan of salvation was so unnecessary yet it acts as a lesson for all of the unnecessary evils that people perform that have a crucial impact on theirs and others souls. We learn from Judas and Lucifer, that rejection of the Father's plan comes from wanting more glory and thinking they know better than God and create a Hell state for themselves in the end.
     
  18. Jacob Samuelson

    Jacob Samuelson Active Member

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    I agree with this. If we look at why Lucifer was cast out of heaven, it was because of pride and wanting more glory. Jesus said that it would be better for a man to not be born than to betray the Son of Man. He was referring to Judas I think when he said that, suggesting that if Judas were to betray him, he would have become a son of Perdition. It is very possible that Judas was trying to invoke the divine power that He knew Jesus had. It is likely that Judas was impatient for Jesus to reveal his power towards the Romans and obliterate them as he was taught as a Hebrew student of the Messiah. It would make sense that he would have expected Jesus to call down angels to protect him and remove the Jews from the Occupation of Rome. He felt justified by His betrayal in this. Remember that we do not have accounts that Judas was a witness when Jesus was questioned, suggesting that Judas wasn't denying that Christ was the Son of God, but instead he felt like He could manipulate the time of His power by offering the Jews a way to obtain Jesus. Judas and Lucifer were attempting to manipulate God's power and timing by their own powers and knowledge. This is what was so damning in their actions. In the end, when Judas realized that Jesus wasn't going to use His divine power to save himself. The account said that he repented and tried to return the money to wash his hands from the blood of an innocent man, and the Rabbis wouldn't take it. Yet I believe that Judas more or less lost all purpose when the Messiah didn't do what He expected or wanted. I expect He felt like Christ betrayed him and lied to him and He wanted nothing to do with Him and killed himself for it. This would align with Lucifers fall from heaven reasoning as well.
     
  19. pearl

    pearl Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but everything written was post resurrection, in faith already witnessed. Would Judas have actually known of Jesus' divine power? Much of Christian Scripture is a Christian interpretation of the Hebrew. I find this interesting;
    In 2 Samuel David in peril of his life has to flee Jerusalem from Absalom's revolt; he goes to the Mount of Olives and weeps there, discovering that he has been betrayed by Ahitophel, his trusted advisor. In Matthew this Mount is the site where Jesus predicts desertion by his disciples, denial by Peter, and where he is arrested through the treason of Judas. Judas hanged himself as did Ahitophel who betrayed David. In any event, for Matthew Judas' violent death matches Jesus' prophecy, and the use of thirty pieces of silver matches prophecies of Jeremiah and Zechariah. Peter "went out and wept bitterly"; Judas "went away and hanged himself."

    The chief priests and elders are said to lead Jesus to Pilate and at the same time they are portrayed in the Temple wrestling with the issue of the blood money that Judas has thrown back. They decide to buy a burial field for Judas who hanged himself. In Acts Judas himself buys the field: He bought a parcel of land with the wages of his iniquity, and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle, and all his insides spilled out. As did Ahitophel die similar death, one might even say it was of internal combustiono_O
     
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  20. Jacob Samuelson

    Jacob Samuelson Active Member

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    I can see the Acts account happening more likely. I think for Judas to be a Son of Perdition he wouldnt want to repent, but that he would have become a true Athiest. Where he would have known fully that Jesus was God, yet because Jesus didnt satisfy Judases wishes, He lost all care and destroyed himself in whatever means he could think to join Satan.
     
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