• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Why did the Native Americans not colonise Europe?

soulsurvivor

Active Member
Premium Member
Why did the Native Americans not colonise Europe?

We all know it was the other way round but why??????
Europe was obviously more developed than North America industrially and so could build the ships needed to cross the ocean and colonize America.

The question should really be why didn't Japan or China or India colonize the world. The answer is they were all three fairly isolationist societies. They did not believe in conquering and colonizing other countries.

Indians actually got as far as Indonesia and Cambodia but they did not colonize the people (they did spread religion and help build places like Angkor Wat). The Chinese Emperor prohibited ships from sailing too far. Indians had some religious taboo about crossing oceans. Japan learnt colonization from Europeans and so conquered Korea and attempted to go further in WWII. Arabs invaded and conquered most of India. The Muslims, however, did not colonize India - after the conquest they settled in India and became part of the population - although there was some persecution of locals, there was no exploitation or enslavement.

However, Europeans were the main ones who wanted to cross oceans and conquer, colonize, exploit resources and labor of other countries.
 
Last edited:
As a reminder, this conversation started with your response quoting the last line of my post, which I have assumed is the thesis under debate:

This is what I said:

They competed with Europeans for many centuries.

European empires competed against Native American empires, and often came out 2nd best.

Even when they came out on top, they relied heavily on Native allies.

We just look at the process backwards with the knowledge of the final outcome, then compress 300 years of dynamic and complex history into a single teleological process.


I'm happy that that is a more accurate description of the process than simply saying NA were unable to compete.

Ha. Finally a grudging concession! Of course, you then have to add the comment that they could have lasted for several more centuries if they had made an alliance *with another European power*, which would no longer be an evaluatory scenario between indigenous technology/culture and European technology/culture, would it.

Again, you seem to be arguing against your own imagination.

I'm looking at what actually happened or could have happened, not some hypothetical technological competition fixed at the point of first contact.

Technology spreads meaning that an initial tech advantage doesn't necessarily remain, and an overall tech advantage of a nation, doesn't necessarily mean any group from that civilisation has a tech advantage in all interactions 'on the ground'.

For the Conquistadors, the major tech advantage was the sword, but this was hardly sufficient to mean Natives were "unable to compete". It was a good advantage to have, but it hardly decided the outcome in advance.

Cortes was not successful simply because he had swords or because credulous Natives thought he was a god and let him win, but to a large extent because he had tens of thousands of native allies.

“This trilogy of factors—disease, native disunity, and Spanish steel—goes most of the way toward explaining the Conquest’s outcome. Remove just one and the likelihood of the failure of expeditions under Cortés, Pizarro, and others would have been very high. As Clendinnen has observed of the Spanish-Mexica war, both Spaniards and natives were aware that the Conquest was “a close-run thing,” a point that applies broadly across the Conquest.43 The failed expeditions outnumbered successful ones, and cautionary tales can be found by looking at the fate of Spanish expeditions such as Montejo’s early attempts to conquer Yucatan, the early campaigns into Oaxaca’s northern sierra, or the Pizarro-Orellana journey into Amazonia.44 Spaniards would have suffered steady mortality from fatal wounds, starvation, disease, and so on, with survivors limping back to Spain or to colonial enclaves scattered along the coasts and islands. Time and again, this outcome was averted because Spanish steel weapons permitted them to hold out long enough for native allies to save them, while the next wave of epidemic disease disrupted native defenses.”

M Restall "Seven Myths of the Spanish Conquest"


I say such a process is best categorised as an inability to compete.

Let’s look at an analogy. Let’s say there is some infectious disease process that our bodies can’t defend against or eliminate and is always fatal. Let’s say the course of the disease takes 7 to 10 years before death occurs, with a continual degradation in bodily function and quality of life. Would we say our bodies are able to compete with the disease simply because it does not kill us quickly?

The fact that Plains Nations were wholly untroubled by Jamestown Settlement should not be portrayed as their competing effectively with Europeans. The “infection” had simply yet to spread that far.

This is precisely the teleological view that I find misleading. The idea that by the 15th C the only possible outcome was an American continent entirely dominated by Europeans and their descendants is not accurate imo.

We understand more from history by trying to looking at events as they happened, with the risks, uncertainties and randomness that actually existed and not by starting with the result of a complex 500 year process and assuming this was the only possible outcome from the start.

Also the idea that, say, the Comanches in New Mexico and Texas were unable to compete with the Spanish there is just wrong.

NA tribes were not competing against the global Spanish Empire, but for specific regions with specific groups of Spanish people with varying degrees of imperial support. Colonists often acted against the interests and wishes of the government of their nation and they were often 'armed entrepreneurs' rather than people carrying out the orders of a central power.

Still, I raised a concern about word choice or use and your immediate response was to provide the author’s credentials in lieu of addressing those concerns. How else am I to interpret such a response if credentials alone are considered sufficient to address and counter my concerns? Perhaps I should have simply interpreted it as a deflection technique to avoid addressing my concerns directly, which would leave us asking why, of course.

Let's see if this is an accurate representation of my post, shall we? ;)

Do you see the author as providing a clinical assessment of the history of this period, or does the author have an agenda?
As a Finnish professor at Oxford I’d say he has less reason to have an agenda than the pop culture American version.

I’ve read several of his books, and find them excellent, and they are well regarded among scholars.

This review (critically) covers some of the questions you raise
https://archive.md/za909

What you say here would only make sense if you hadn’t deliberately edited out the part where I answer your question with my opinion, a statement that his books are generally pretty well regarded and a link to a (partially) critical review by another scholar that adds nuance and food for thought regarding some of his views (although also maintains it is an important book for the field).

It's odd that you would try to paint this direct answer to your question as either "deflection" or a desire for people to take his views uncritically given it specifically includes an article looking at his views critically which is a fact I specifically highlighted for you.

Also note that my comparison was between a respected scholar and the (notoriously agenda driven field of) national popular history. And "less reason than..." obviously doesn't mean "accept everything he says uncritically"

I had given you the benefit of the doubt that you made a genuine error, but seems to me that you have no interest in trying to address what I actually said in good faith, and are fixated on blindly defending your own misrepresentations :shrug:
 
Last edited:

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Let's see if this is an accurate representation of my post, shall we? ;)
Do you see the author as providing a clinical assessment of the history of this period, or does the author have an agenda?
As a Finnish professor at Oxford I’d say he has less reason to have an agenda that the pop culture American version.

I’ve read several of his books, and find them excellent, and they are well regarded among scholars.

This review (critically) covers some of the questions you raise https://archive.md/za909

Huh. Here is the representation I am seeing regarding your post #34:

Augustus post 34.png


Perhaps the confusion lies with me in that my last sentence would have been more explicit in its intent had it been something like:

“Do you see the author as providing a clinical assessment of the history of this period when he uses the phrase “heart of North America” or applies the terms ‘imperial’ or ‘empire’ to the Iroquois league of nations, or is it fair to see the use of these terms as an exaggeration or misrepresentation, and if so, what would be the author's purpose or intent in doing so?”

So, my expectation was that you would either specifically defend the author's wording or provide some rationale as to why such exaggerations (if you agreed they could be viewed as such) did not amount to the author overstating his case. Instead, you responded with his credentials.

What you say here would only make sense if you hadn’t deliberately edited out the part where I answer your question with my opinion, a statement that his books are generally pretty well regarded and a link to a (partially) critical review by another scholar that adds nuance and food for thought regarding some of his views (although also maintains it is an important book for the field).

Also note that my comparison was between a respected scholar and the (notoriously agenda driven field of) national popular history. And "less reason than..." obviously doesn't mean "accept everything he says uncritically"

The statements I edited out (with the exception of the referenced review article, which I will address below) only further reinforce the problem and concern with the first sentence I quoted. You gave his credentials and adding your opinion that his books are excellent and that the author is well regarded, from my perspective anyway, is only done to add further weight or gravitas to the proffered credentials.

So, you say that “he has less reason to have an agenda that[sic] the pop culture American version” by virtue of his being a Finnish professor at Oxford. Why? Why should we accept such an assumption? Why flaunt his credentials other than to say we should take his word for it, or rather, accept his word choice as valid and appropriate by virtue of his credentials?

What if the author had a BA in Journalism and worked as a sports reporter for a small regional newspaper and this was his debut book? Should that affect how we regard and evaluate the material presented, have greater skepticism? Should we assume more of an agenda in light of such credentials?

In my view, once published, the book should stand on its own merits. Who the author is would be immaterial. You seem to hold a different view.

It's odd that you would try to paint this direct answer to your question as either "deflection" or a desire for people to take his views uncritically given it specifically includes an article looking at his views critically which is a fact I specifically highlighted for you.

Here I have to ask why you simply reference this article. Why not explicitly state what the reviewers' concerns were with the book and provide your rationale as to why the reviewers criticisms may or may not be applicable to our discussion? You have no problem cutting and pasting text from sources you feel bolster your arguments. Why not in this instance?

I had given you the benefit of the doubt that you made a genuine error, but seems to me that you have no interest in trying to address what I actually said in good faith, and are fixated on blindly defending your own misrepresentations :shrug:

Well, I find issue with your use of the authors credentials which you do not seem to share. I’ve tried to explain that concern to the best of my limited abilities. If you still find them wanting, so be it. :)
 
So, my expectation was that you would either specifically defend the author's wording or provide some rationale as to why such exaggerations (if you agreed they could be viewed as such) did not amount to the author overstating his case. Instead, you responded with his credentials.

No, I responded with short critical article that addresses your question which I assumed was within your ability to comprehend.

Given it’s a question of subjective preference regarding definitions of ambiguous terms and I’d already explained my views on why they were acceptable imo there’s not much to add.

It’s basically semantic quibbling.

Heart just means “not on the remote fringes”.

Empire is a political unit established by conquest where different groups are brought under the control of a dominant power.

America is commonly considered an empire in scholarly literature, and it would certainly not be objective to consider various NA tribes to be imperial powers then deny that America was.

The more debatable status is that of the NA tribal empires.


If you didn’t want to read the linked article, just could have just said that instead of going through the charade of pretending it doesn’t exist and repeating the same ridiculous strawman ad nauseum based on you pretending it doesn’t exist.

You are intelligent enough to be able to infer that presenting a critical review of a text is not a demand that you uncritically believe the text in question.

Can you explain in simple language why you would actually think that it is?




So, you say that “he has less reason to have an agenda that[sic] the pop culture American version” by virtue of his being a Finnish professor at Oxford. Why? Why should we accept such an assumption? Why flaunt his credentials other than to say we should take his word for it, or rather, accept his word choice as valid and appropriate by virtue of his credentials?

The 2 things being compared:

1. Pop culture national history
2. A respected scholar in a particular field

1 is a notoriously agenda driven area as it is closely tied to identity. Popular religious and national histories are massively imbued with myths and significantly bolster particular senses of identity.

The stories nations tell about themselves and their place in history are not usually primarily focused on the neutral interpretation of facts.

When you claimed Cortes was seen as a god, this is you repeating agenda driven history closely tied to European supremacist beliefs (not that you mean to use it for that purpose).

My point was that when you yourself uncritically rely on agenda driven popular history, you might want to reflect on that before assuming agendas in other people presenting alternative narratives.

Pop culture national history is largely about reinforcing a sense of identity and factual accuracy is not particularly important ( how many people judge who is correct in the 1619 Project controversy based on careful analysis rather than ideological prejudices?)

Of course Scholars have their own biases, some even have clear ideological agendas, but they still need to be judged by the standards of their discipline and obvious and consistent agendas that distort evidence tend to reduce your credibility. In pop culture history, being able to “hit the right cultural notes” is far more important.

Having an ideological agenda is often a plus point in pop culture history, especially as it relates to emotive issue issues of identity.

Noting that national pop culture history is more likely to reflect an agenda than a respected scholar, is like noting Fox News is more likely to reflect an agenda than a scholarly journal.

And noting this would obviously not be a call to uncritically believe everything in scholarly journals.

Here I have to ask why you simply reference this article. Why not explicitly state what the reviewers' concerns were with the book and provide your rationale as to why the reviewers criticisms may or may not be applicable to our discussion? You have no problem cutting and pasting text from sources you feel bolster your arguments. Why not in this instance?

Because sometimes I have other things to do than summarise short articles for Mike off the internet relating to questions I’ve already answered because he isn’t interested enough in the topic to read them himself to better understand the thing he is talking about.

Why not just read it yourself instead of wasting time whining about it and constructing strawmen?

If someone is not interested enough to spend 5 mins reading about a topic, it’s unlikely they are interested in revising their views on it.

This is particularly true when they prefer quibbling than actually discussing the topic in question.

The other quotes were from books, and “buy and read a book” is different to “here is a short article that deals with your question in a balanced manner so you don’t have to take my word for it given I’ve already explained my perspective” (which is generally considered a good thing in discussion but, for some reason, you seem fixated on casting as some kind of devious ploy).

Well, I find issue with your use of the authors credentials which you do not seem to share

We use a variety of methods to critical evaluate the credibility of information sources.

Credentials would be one of these.

Hence you probably trust a qualified doctor more than a plumber for medical advice.

Suggesting that, on average, a doctor is more likely to be able to give good medical advice than a plumber is not a call to uncritically accept everything doctors say.
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Let’s look at an analogy. Let’s say there is some infectious disease process that our bodies can’t defend against or eliminate and is always fatal. Let’s say the course of the disease takes 7 to 10 years before death occurs, with a continual degradation in bodily function and quality of life. Would we say our bodies are able to compete with the disease simply because it does not kill us quickly?

The fact that Plains Nations were wholly untroubled by Jamestown Settlement should not be portrayed as their competing effectively with Europeans. The “infection” had simply yet to spread that far.

I think we can appreciate all the varied interactions between all involved groups from both sides of the Atlantic *and* acknowledge the relentless expansion and territorial control by the Europeans.

This is precisely the teleological view that I find misleading. The idea that by the 15th C the only possible outcome was an American continent entirely dominated by Europeans and their descendants is not accurate imo.

Yet, we see this same pattern all over the globe, from the African continent, to the Asian subcontinent and into far Southeast Asia, and Australia/New Zealand. What has occurred in the Americas does not seem a mere fluke or especially tenuous to me.

We’ll simply have to agree to disagree.

The 2 things being compared:

1. Pop culture national history
2. A respected scholar in a particular field

1 is a notoriously agenda driven area as it is closely tied to identity. Popular religious and national histories are massively imbued with myths and significantly bolster particular senses of identity.

...

When you claimed Cortes was seen as a god, this is you repeating agenda driven history closely tied to European supremacist beliefs (not that you mean to use it for that purpose).

My point was that when you yourself uncritically rely on agenda driven popular history, you might want to reflect on that before assuming agendas in other people presenting alternative narratives.

So, just to be clear, is it your view that school history textbooks are to be considered agenda driven pop culture that “are massively imbued with myths and significantly bolster particular senses of identity”? I am not saying that school textbooks should be considered inerrant by any means, but surely there is *some* attempt at academic integrity and periodic revision and updating (Kansas school board approved textbooks excepted). Is it really fair to characterize them as a product of pop culture, or should they be viewed as an attempt to represent the then current academic consensus on the topics that they cover?

I found an interesting resource on the American Historical Society website. On it they have a feature in which they compare how multiple school textbooks address a particular topic by listing verbatim entries for the textbooks compared. Here is a link to the comparison regarding the Spanish conquest of Mexico (which you are under no obligation to view):

What the Textbooks Have To Say About the Conquest of Mexico: Some Suggestions for Questions to Ask of the Evidence

Of the 5 different textbooks compared, published between 1997 and 2000, four cite the story of Cortez possibly taken to be the god Quetzalcoatl. I bring this up only to say that what I was taught in the 1970’s seems to have persisted at least until the 2000’s.

I take some issue with you characterizing the “Cortez as god” story as something that I personally claim when I clearly said that it was a recollection from my secondary school education. I also find it fascinating that you describe me as uncritically relying on the story. Certainly most secondary school students are at the mercy of their teachers and the textbooks they provide. Still, when you said that the story was a myth that had long been abandoned by scholars I admitted my ignorance on the subject and simply expressed mild interest in what might have prompted the reassessment. If being willing to abandon the story when its veracity is challenged constitutes uncritical acceptance, then so be it.
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
No, I responded with short critical article that addresses your question which I assumed was within your ability to comprehend.

Given it’s a question of subjective preference regarding definitions of ambiguous terms and I’d already explained my views on why they were acceptable imo there’s not much to add.




If you didn’t want to read the linked article, just could have just said that instead of going through the charade of pretending it doesn’t exist and repeating the same ridiculous strawman ad nauseum based on you pretending it doesn’t exist.

You are intelligent enough to be able to infer that presenting a critical review of a text is not a demand that you uncritically believe the text in question.

Can you explain in simple language why you would actually think that it is?






The 2 things being compared:

1. Pop culture national history
2. A respected scholar in a particular field

1 is a notoriously agenda driven area as it is closely tied to identity. Popular religious and national histories are massively imbued with myths and significantly bolster particular senses of identity.

The stories nations tell about themselves and their place in history are not usually primarily focused on the neutral interpretation of facts.

When you claimed Cortes was seen as a god, this is you repeating agenda driven history closely tied to European supremacist beliefs (not that you mean to use it for that purpose).

My point was that when you yourself uncritically rely on agenda driven popular history, you might want to reflect on that before assuming agendas in other people presenting alternative narratives.

Pop culture national history is largely about reinforcing a sense of identity and factual accuracy is not particularly important ( how many people judge who is correct in the 1619 Project controversy based on careful analysis rather than ideological prejudices?)

Of course Scholars have their own biases, some even have clear ideological agendas, but they still need to be judged by the standards of their discipline and obvious and consistent agendas that distort evidence tend to reduce your credibility. In pop culture history, being able to “hit the right cultural notes” is far more important.

Having an ideological agenda is often a plus point in pop culture history, especially as it relates to emotive issue issues of identity.

Noting that national pop culture history is more likely to reflect an agenda than a respected scholar, is like noting Fox News is more likely to reflect an agenda than a scholarly journal.

And noting this would obviously not be a call to uncritically believe everything in scholarly journals.



Because sometimes I have other things to do than summarise short articles for Mike off the internet relating to questions I’ve already answered because he isn’t interested enough in the topic to read them himself to better understand the thing he is talking about.

Why not just read it yourself instead of wasting time whining about it and constructing strawmen?

If someone is not interested enough to spend 5 mins reading about a topic, it’s unlikely they are interested in revising their views on it.

This is particularly true when they prefer quibbling than actually discussing the topic in question.

The other quotes were from books, and “buy and read a book” is different to “here is a short article that deals with your question in a balanced manner so you don’t have to take my word for it given I’ve already explained my perspective” (which is generally considered a good thing in discussion but, for some reason, you seem fixated on casting as some kind of devious ploy).



We use a variety of methods to critical evaluate the credibility of information sources.

Credentials would be one of these.

Hence you probably trust a qualified doctor more than a plumber for medical advice.

Suggesting that, on average, a doctor is more likely to be able to give good medical advice than a plumber is not a call to uncritically accept everything doctors say.

<chuckles> All right my friend. You shall have the last word on this credentials debate. :)
 
Yet, we see this same pattern all over the globe, from the African continent, to the Asian subcontinent and into far Southeast Asia, and Australia/New Zealand. What has occurred in the Americas does not seem a mere fluke or especially tenuous to me.


No one said it was a mere fluke, just that there is a realistic chance things could have turned out differently. Events are probabilistic after all.

Compressing 400 years of global history in a rapidly changing world into a single process where all these things were unstoppable would give people a very distorted and over simplistic understanding of the past half millennium, and also the present.

The Conquistadors with arquebuses and swords, with minimal resupply options, months of travel from Spain, vastly outnumbered and significantly dependent on the benevolence of their allies were in a very different position from 19th C European armies in Africa armed with maxim guns and resupplied by steamships and rail fighting some of the most one-sided battles in history.

One was unstoppable, and the other was in a situation that could easily have gone either way.

“This trilogy of factors—disease, native disunity, and Spanish steel—goes most of the way toward explaining the Conquest’s outcome. Remove just one and the likelihood of the failure of expeditions under Cortés, Pizarro, and others would have been very high. As Clendinnen has observed of the Spanish-Mexica war, both Spaniards and natives were aware that the Conquest was “a close-run thing,” a point that applies broadly across the Conquest.43 The failed expeditions outnumbered successful ones, and cautionary tales can be found by looking at the fate of Spanish expeditions such as Montejo’s early attempts to conquer Yucatan, the early campaigns into Oaxaca’s northern sierra, or the Pizarro-Orellana journey into Amazonia.44 Spaniards would have suffered steady mortality from fatal wounds, starvation, disease, and so on, with survivors limping back to Spain or to colonial enclaves scattered along the coasts and islands. Time and again, this outcome was averted because Spanish steel weapons permitted them to hold out long enough for native allies to save them, while the next wave of epidemic disease disrupted native defenses.”

M Restall "Seven Myths of the Spanish Conquest"


The Indian subcontinent is even more contingent on chance. The conquest of India was more by chance than design, there was a number of British forces there as part of the 7 Years War.

Then the Jagath Seth family of Indian bankers bribed the British Commander and the East India Company to attack the Mughal ruler (backed by the French) as they found it preferable to do business with the EIC than capricious rulers who were wont to not repay monies to commoners. The Battle of Plassey could have gone either way, but the EIC forces won (after the Jagat Seths bribed some of the opposition commanders), and this led to the conquest of the subcontinent.

So there was a war conducted by a private corporation, initiated by an Indian family, paid for by Indian money and largely fought with Indian troops. It was only possible because sufficient Indians found the situation preferable to the alternative. Indians basically colonised India for the benefit of a foreign business.

Martial castes were used to fighting for whoever paid the best, merchants wanted rule of law, certain ethno-religious groups feared other ones. as a result a few thousand British administrators and soldiers could rule 100 million people.

The conquest relied hugely on luck and happenstance, and was perhaps more improbable than probable without the benefit of hindsight. There is no reason why the Indians armed by and fighting for the EIC, could not have been equally well armed and fighting for the Mughals or Hindu elites.

Even the expansion of the US may not have happened has the colonials not won the War of Independence, which probably wouldn't have happend without the intervention of the French, Spanish and Dutch on their side tying up large numbers of forces in Europe and the broader Empires. If this war hadn't bankrupted the French (in part) leading to the French Revolution there might well have been no US in its current form, and a continent split between competing powers with Native groups being heavily armed by all sides and being able to maintain some territiories for themselves.


I would not say that a view that "the Europeans were more technologically advanced therefore it was all destined to happen regardless" is an accurate or insightful way to view half a millennium of global history.
 
So, just to be clear, is it your view that school history textbooks are to be considered agenda driven pop culture that “are massively imbued with myths and significantly bolster particular senses of identity”?

Yes, that has been their exact purpose in most countries for most of the modern era.

I looked at some on my mum's school books recently and they were very much of that nature. The ones I remember from my schooling were better, but clearly focused on creating a positive sense of national identity via selective curation of information and context.

There may have been some developments in the past couple of decades in some Western countries regarding certain aspects of their histories, but I'm not sure how much as I've not seen a textbook for years.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
So, just to be clear, is it your view that school history textbooks are to be considered agenda driven pop culture that “are massively imbued with myths and significantly bolster particular senses of identity”? I am not saying that school textbooks should be considered inerrant by any means, but surely there is *some* attempt at academic integrity and periodic revision and updating (Kansas school board approved textbooks excepted). Is it really fair to characterize them as a product of pop culture, or should they be viewed as an attempt to represent the then current academic consensus on the topics that they cover?

I found an interesting resource on the American Historical Society website. On it they have a feature in which they compare how multiple school textbooks address a particular topic by listing verbatim entries for the textbooks compared. Here is a link to the comparison regarding the Spanish conquest of Mexico (which you are under no obligation to view):

What the Textbooks Have To Say About the Conquest of Mexico: Some Suggestions for Questions to Ask of the Evidence

Of the 5 different textbooks compared, published between 1997 and 2000, four cite the story of Cortez possibly taken to be the god Quetzalcoatl. I bring this up only to say that what I was taught in the 1970’s seems to have persisted at least until the 2000’s.

I take some issue with you characterizing the “Cortez as god” story as something that I personally claim when I clearly said that it was a recollection from my secondary school education. I also find it fascinating that you describe me as uncritically relying on the story. Certainly most secondary school students are at the mercy of their teachers and the textbooks they provide. Still, when you said that the story was a myth that had long been abandoned by scholars I admitted my ignorance on the subject and simply expressed mild interest in what might have prompted the reassessment. If being willing to abandon the story when its veracity is challenged constitutes uncritical acceptance, then so be it.

I also heard that same story about the Aztecs and Cortez when I was in school, although it wasn't really considered a central part of the history, as I recall. It was treated more as an aside, something that might have happened but maybe not. It doesn't even seem all that relevant to the overall history of what happened. I thought of it more on the level of a "George Washington and the Cherry Tree" kind of story.

Although when it comes to school textbooks, looking back, I can see where we did get some rather one-sided versions of history. However, it was also during the 70s and 80s when America overall was re-examining history and challenging many of the historical myths which pervaded into the American consciousness and became part of the American cultural fabric. The old "Cowboys and Indians" trope had come under attack as a false narrative which fed into certain historical mythologies Americans came to embrace. Another was the "Lost Cause" version of the Civil War.
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
No one said it was a mere fluke, just that there is a realistic chance things could have turned out differently. Events are probabilistic after all.

Compressing 400 years of global history in a rapidly changing world into a single process where all these things were unstoppable would give people a very distorted and over simplistic understanding of the past half millennium, and also the present.

I fully agree that events do not progress deterministically and that what has happened should therefore be construed to have been destined to have happened. Exactly as you say, events are probabilistic after all.

But what does it mean to say events are probabilistic? It means that of many possible outcomes, or possible futures if you will, some are more likely, more probable, than others.

I think you agree that there was a technological disparity between indigenous Americans and Europeans. However, this gap involved much more than the initial differences in technology used at the time of initial contact. A culture of discovery and invention was blossoming on the European continent that meant the technological gap would continually expand, and if we are honest and realistic with ourselves, it can only be seen as a gap that would remain insurmountable without a dramatic, yet low probability, change in indigenous culture.

I get that you are fully on board with this narrative that indigenous Americans *successfully* competed with the Europeans for 400 years. The reality is that it took 400 years for Europeans to fully subsume the Americas because it literally takes that long to fill two massive continents. Acknowledging this reality does not constitute an unrealistic compression of history, in fact, quite the opposite is true. To portray the indigenous as having successfully competed simply by virtue of it taking 400 years for all populations on the continent to be fully subsumed seems a distortion in my view. Had 20 million Europeans landed at the same, the process would have been commensurately shorter.


The Conquistadors with arquebuses and swords, with minimal resupply options, months of travel from Spain, vastly outnumbered and significantly dependent on the benevolence of their allies were in a very different position from 19th C European armies in Africa armed with maxim guns and resupplied by steamships and rail fighting some of the most one-sided battles in history.

One was unstoppable, and the other was in a situation that could easily have gone either way.

Think about it. We are talking about an Aztec empire consisting of millions of people who were expanding their reach and dominating their neighbors. The addition of a mere 600 people toppled the whole thing in two years. Can we imagine a scenario in which we introduce 600 Iroquois or Cherokee on the coast of Mesoamerica and assign the same probabilities to them as we would to the 600 Spanish? Yes, they leveraged support from weaker tribes in their bid against the Aztecs, but it is still just 600 guys that create the probabilities that could not happen with the weaker tribes on their own.

The mere fact that the Spanish had the confidence and expectations that they did speaks volumes to me as to the technological advantage possessed by the Spanish over the indigenous populations. Yes, Cortez could have failed with his company of only 600. What of the next attempt. Would it simply require 1,000 Spaniards to be decisive? 1,500? Given the gold involved and the incentive it engenders, even if all indigenous became hostile to the Spanish, do we think it improbable that they could have established a fortified position on the coast from which to successfully prosecute their campaign?

“This trilogy of factors—disease, native disunity, and Spanish steel—goes most of the way toward explaining the Conquest’s outcome. Remove just one and the likelihood of the failure of expeditions under Cortés, Pizarro, and others would have been very high. As Clendinnen has observed of the Spanish-Mexica war, both Spaniards and natives were aware that the Conquest was “a close-run thing,” a point that applies broadly across the Conquest.43 The failed expeditions outnumbered successful ones, and cautionary tales can be found by looking at the fate of Spanish expeditions such as Montejo’s early attempts to conquer Yucatan, the early campaigns into Oaxaca’s northern sierra, or the Pizarro-Orellana journey into Amazonia.44 Spaniards would have suffered steady mortality from fatal wounds, starvation, disease, and so on, with survivors limping back to Spain or to colonial enclaves scattered along the coasts and islands. Time and again, this outcome was averted because Spanish steel weapons permitted them to hold out long enough for native allies to save them, while the next wave of epidemic disease disrupted native defenses.”

M Restall "Seven Myths of the Spanish Conquest"

Again, appreciate how few Spanish are involved as they make their forays into the continent. The takeaway is that there was great risk in failing to conquer as quickly and easily as they did with as few resources as were used. I certainly do not interpret these events as indigenous populations successfully competing with the invading Europeans.

I would not say that a view that "the Europeans were more technologically advanced therefore it was all destined to happen regardless" is an accurate or insightful way to view half a millennium of global history.

Destined? No. Highly probable? Yes.
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Yes, that has been their exact purpose in most countries for most of the modern era.

I looked at some on my mum's school books recently and they were very much of that nature. The ones I remember from my schooling were better, but clearly focused on creating a positive sense of national identity via selective curation of information and context.

There may have been some developments in the past couple of decades in some Western countries regarding certain aspects of their histories, but I'm not sure how much as I've not seen a textbook for years.

My wife was raised in the Southern US, I was raised in the North. The main takeaway for her from her secondary school education in regards to the US Civil War was that the conflict was about States Rights, while the takeaway from my Northern schooling was that it was fought over slavery. I think this anecdote somewhat illustrates your point when you say schooling "clearly focused on creating a positive sense of national identity via selective curation of information and context." While specific factual occurrences and timelines were probably the same for my wife and I's education regarding the Civil War, the importance, values, and justifications for factual events might be different.

I still have a problem with characterizing this as pop culture though. The phrase "pop culture" connotes a sense frivolity and impermanent to me, or that changes easily, which I do not think correctly describes what occurs in the education of history. Also, your use of the phrase "massively imbued with myths" seems a bit hyperbolic to me and makes it sound like no or very little factual information is conveyed. As I said in regards to my anecdote, I think my wife and I were probably given the same bulk of facts regarding the Civil War. Its the subjective meaning applied to those factual events that differs.
 
The mere fact that the Spanish had the confidence and expectations that they did speaks volumes to me as to the technological advantage possessed by the Spanish over the indigenous populations. Yes, Cortez could have failed with his company of only 600. What of the next attempt. Would it simply require 1,000 Spaniards to be decisive? 1,500? Given the gold involved and the incentive it engenders, even if all indigenous became hostile to the Spanish, do we think it improbable that they could have established a fortified position on the coast from which to successfully prosecute their campaign?

You seem to be burying the lede.

600 hundred Spanish and, according to Cortes, 100,000 local allies (along with devastating disease outbreaks).

(Obviously an exaggeration, but you get the idea).


If you look at the East India Company takeover of India (another conquest conducted by private military entrepreneurs) you will see similarly small numbers of Europeans, far more Indians, much less of a technological advantage and no apocalyptic disease outbreaks.

The conquest was financially and logistically supported by Indians, and overwhelmingly conducted by Indian soldiers.

By your logic we should consider that the Indians were “unable to compete”, and that the key factor was the technological advantage, despite the fact that the Indians could have eradicated the EIC any time they chose.

Clearly the main factor was the ability to capitalise on local divisions along with the fact that enough local people thought they could benefit from the new state of affairs.
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
You seem to be burying the lede.

600 hundred Spanish and, according to Cortes, 100,000 local allies (along with devastating disease outbreaks).

(Obviously an exaggeration, but you get the idea).


If you look at the East India Company takeover of India (another conquest conducted by private military entrepreneurs) you will see similarly small numbers of Europeans, far more Indians, much less of a technological advantage and no apocalyptic disease outbreaks.

The conquest was financially and logistically supported by Indians, and overwhelmingly conducted by Indian soldiers.

By your logic we should consider that the Indians were “unable to compete”, and that the key factor was the technological advantage, despite the fact that the Indians could have eradicated the EIC any time they chose.

Clearly the main factor was the ability to capitalise on local divisions along with the fact that enough local people thought they could benefit from the new state of affairs.

Got it. We can leave it here. Cheers till next time. :)
 

☆Dreamwind☆

Active Member
Because they didn't have the types of ships and weapons to do so. They also may have had no desire to run around conquering other continents for themselves. It's not like any of us can go back in time and ask.
 
Top