Why did the Jews reject their Messiah when he DID come?

[sooda]

I didn't know the Jews had gone back to Israel for this battle, and were all living peacefully in
unwalled cities. What became of these Jews after they defeated their enemies? Who was
Israel's ally in all this?

Very few Jews lived in Jerusalem until after the crusades. It was Christian. No need for a wall. Their ally was Cyrus King of Persia.

 

[PruePhillip]

Very few Jews lived in Jerusalem until after the crusades. It was Christian. No need for a wall. Their ally was Cyrus King of Persia.

But... it says "all" the Jews will be back in Israel.
And... they will be victorious against Magog.
Your timing, geography and world event knowledge
cannot be correct.

 

[sooda]

But... it says "all" the Jews will be back in Israel.
And... they will be victorious against Magog.
Your timing, geography and world event knowledge
cannot be correct.

If you think Gog and Magog is Russia that's part of the Scofield heresy.

The troubles lasted 42 months and ended during the grape harvest (August) 70 AD. Jesus warned them to flee to the mountains when they saw the Abomination of Desolation .. and they did. They fled Jerusalem for Pella.

This time the Abomination of Desolation were the Roman Standards carried by the Roman soldiers and all the other countries of the Roman Empire that fought with Vespasian and Titus.

 

[PruePhillip]

If you think Gog and Magog is Russia that's part of the Scofield heresy.

The troubles lasted 42 months and ended during the grape harvest (August) 70 AD. Jesus warned them to flee to the mountains when they saw the Abomination of Desolation .. and they did. They fled Jerusalem for Pella.

This time the Abomination of Desolation were the Roman Standards carried by the Roman soldiers and all the other countries of the Roman Empire that fought with Vespasian and Titus.

Wait a minute, how could Jesus warn the Jews about this war if
1 - Jesus Christ didn't exist
2 - the Gospels were written 200 or so years after?

But Ezekiel is speaking of another war - which happens when the Jews return from this Roman war.
And after the Ezekiel war there is the war of Armageddon. It's in the same place, too.

Going back to the 1800's there were many "scholars" who not only mocked the idea the cosmopolitan
Jews of the nations could go back to Palestine but that this swamp infested part of the world would
be of interest to anyone, let alone having battles that would kill a third of the world's population and
cause all the cities of the world to fall. You can see how it can happen now, can't you?

 

[sooda]

Wait a minute, how could Jesus warn the Jews about this war if
1 - Jesus Christ didn't exist
2 - the Gospels were written 200 or so years after?

But Ezekiel is speaking of another war - which happens when the Jews return from this Roman war.
And after the Ezekiel war there is the war of Armageddon. It's in the same place, too.

Going back to the 1800's there were many "scholars" who not only mocked the idea the cosmopolitan
Jews of the nations could go back to Palestine but that this swamp infested part of the world would
be of interest to anyone, let alone having battles that would kill a third of the world's population and
cause all the cities of the world to fall. You can see how it can happen now, can't you?

Cyrus Scofield and Samuel Untermeyer sold Christian Zionism to Protestants.

Jesus was referring to the Abomination of Desolation during the reign of Antiochus IV Epiphanes. ... before he was born.

The Christian Flight to Pella - preteristarchive.com
www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/p/pella-flight.html
The Christian Flight to Pella Interpretation and Fulfillment in the Apostolic Church. Luke 21:20-22 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies..Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it; for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written."

 

[PruePhillip]

Cyrus Scofield and Samuel Untermeyer sold Christian Zionism to Protestants.

Jesus was referring to the Abomination of Desolation during the reign of Antiochus IV Epiphanes. ... before he was born.

The Christian Flight to Pella - preteristarchive.com
www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/p/pella-flight.html
The Christian Flight to Pella Interpretation and Fulfillment in the Apostolic Church. Luke 21:20-22 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies..Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it; for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written."

I know nothing about this Scoffield, Untermyer, Zionist doctrines - just my reading of the bible.
Jesus was warning his followers what to expect. He wasn't giving them a history of Israel.
We have no idea if the real flight was to Pella or the real moment to flee was the retreat of
General Gallus - that's what historians do: find a reasonable fit to make a plausible story.

 

[sooda]

I know nothing about this Scoffield, Untermyer, Zionist doctrines - just my reading of the bible.
Jesus was warning his followers what to expect. He wasn't giving them a history of Israel.
We have no idea if the real flight was to Pella or the real moment to flee was the retreat of
General Gallus - that's what historians do: find a reasonable fit to make a plausible story.

You believe what Scofield wrote.. whether you know where is came from or not.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

More likely, a direct meaning. Jesus didn't practice circumcision

Says who?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Really? You mean, all those poor animals who died over the millennium?
I don't this verse means a prayer does away with the daily sacrifice. It just
stresses the importance of prayer.

It means that when there is no Temple, prayers suffice. Obviously, when there is a Temple, other laws kick in.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Yeah, it does. Numerous people attested to Jesus' resurrection. The PREPONDERANCE of the EVIDENCE is in his favor.

But the exact same evidence applies for the resurrection of other religious leaders in history. Did they also resurrect?

 

[Desert Snake]

Says who?

Aside from circumcision being associated with yeshua in the book of Luke, there is no mention, otherwise. Pretty strange considering others are literally noted by that practice, and it going against the 'covenant of uncircumcision', by periphery, and by theological argument, book of Galatians.

It's a good assumption that yeshua didn't practice it, He obviously didn't teach it, as the early church didn't practice it, nor is it traditional in christianity.

•
Also consider that the practice was not associated with Abraam, in the new testament covenantal descriptions.

Stephen mentioned it, however it seems like either a religious teaching idea, or, it could be something in a certain tradition that Stephen was just quoting, basically. Stephen is sort of reciting ideas, there, as opposed to saying, ' a deity came down to abraham and said you should practice this custom like they do in egypt'

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Aside from circumcision being associated with yeshua in the book of Luke, there is no mention, otherwise. '

Jesus was a Jew, raised in Judaism. If nothing is mentioned, it is safe to assume he simply went by the practice of Judaism. That would include circumcision.

In Acts and the epistles, we see that Jewish believers practiced circumcision, while Gentile believers did not. This is also the correct practice according to Judaism.

 

[Desert Snake]

Jesus was a Jew, raised in Judaism. If nothing is mentioned, it is safe to assume he simply went by the practice of Judaism. That would include circumcision.

In Acts and the epistles, we see that Jewish believers practiced circumcision, while Gentile believers did not. This is also the correct practice according to Judaism.

Interesting generalization, however the Abraamic Covenant, talked about in the New Testament, doesn't associate the practice of circumcision with Abraam, however it goes further, in that the 'Covenant of Uncircumcision', is directly linked to Jesus, via Abraam

Abraam 》Jesus, same Covenant.

This also, is sort of 'obvious', if one presumes the Abraamic Covenant to include more than 'jews', [religion specificity, here.

So, there isn't an inference to the practice of circumcision, directly where we might presume there not to be, and, this would explain the 'two versions', one mentioned by Stephen, a verse type quote, or specific teaching, and one, more in line with the 'added laws' configuration, talked about elsewhere.

The difference there, the jews who are trying to introduce circumcision, to the christian church, at the time, are directly opposed on the grounds that that contradicts the Abraamic Covenant, not because they are trying to introduce the practice to 'gentiles'.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Interesting generalization, however the Abraamic Covenant, talked about in the New Testament, doesn't associate the practice of circumcision with Abraam, however it goes further, in that the 'Covenant of Uncircumcision', is directly linked to Jesus, via Abraam

Can you give me a verse where this "Covenant of Uncirmcumcision" is mentioned? I'm having a hard time finding it, and can't reply until I examine it in context. I've never heard of any such thing. Certainly I know of no such covenant associated with Abraham. The covenant associated with Abraham is the covenant of the cirumcision. This covenant goes through Isaac, and later through Jacob/Israel, which means it extends only to the Jews. Therefore its promises, such as the Promised Land, are only for the Jews.

The difference there, the jews who are trying to introduce circumcision, to the christian church, at the time, are directly opposed on the grounds that that contradicts the Abraamic[sic] Covenant, not because they are trying to introduce the practice to 'gentiles'.

Originally, all the new believers in Jesus were Jews. There was no question they should be circumcised. However, upon the conversion of Cornelius, Gentiles began to come into belief. There was disagreement about whether these Gentiles should convert and become full Jews, taking upon themselves the covenant (the 613 laws) or whether they should remain uncircumcised and simply be God-fearers (righteous Gentiles).

To settle the matter, the Council of Jerusalem was called. After testimony, Peter argued that they remain God-fearers (which is the standard Jewish position today -- that Gentiles do not need to become Jews). James ratified this, and a letter was sent out to this effect. No statement was made indicating that Jews needed to stop being Jews.

Years later when Paul visited Jerusalem, James reiterated this bi-lateral approach, with the believing Jews in Jerusalem being "zealous for Torah" yet quoting from the letter regarding Gentiles.

 

[PruePhillip]

But the exact same evidence applies for the resurrection of other religious leaders in history. Did they also resurrect?

Quick analysis of the New Testament account - it takes on board the historic figures
(Pilot, Herod, Felix etc.) the historic towns (Nazareth, Cappernium, Jerusalem etc..)
and historic events (Roman census, destruction of Jerusalem etc..)
Last time people went to Mount Olympus they didn't see any sign of Greek gods.

 

[sooda]

Can you give me a verse where this "Covenant of Uncirmcumcision" is mentioned? I'm having a hard time finding it, and can't reply until I examine it in context. I've never heard of any such thing. Certainly I know of no such covenant associated with Abraham. The covenant associated with Abraham is the covenant of the cirumcision. This covenant goes through Isaac, and later through Jacob/Israel, which means it extends only to the Jews. Therefore its promises, such as the Promised Land, are only for the Jews.


Originally, all the new believers in Jesus were Jews. There was no question they should be circumcised. However, upon the conversion of Cornelius, Gentiles began to come into belief. There was disagreement about whether these Gentiles should convert and become full Jews, taking upon themselves the covenant (the 613 laws) or whether they should remain uncircumcised and simply be God-fearers (righteous Gentiles).

To settle the matter, the Council of Jerusalem was called. After testimony, Peter argued that they remain God-fearers (which is the standard Jewish position today -- that Gentiles do not need to become Jews). James ratified this, and a letter was sent out to this effect. No statement was made indicating that Jews needed to stop being Jews.

Years later when Paul visited Jerusalem, James reiterated this bi-lateral approach, with the believing Jews in Jerusalem being "zealous for Torah" yet quoting from the letter regarding Gentiles.

Of course Jesus was circumcised when he was a baby just like all Jewish boys.

 

[paarsurrey]

actions are not opinions. you have made reference to actions, not opinions. According to the Christian story of the crucifixion, Pilate knew that Jesus was innocent yet had him crucified anyway. That would not have been just. It has nothing to do with an opinion. However, whether this actually is historical or not is anyone's guess.

One may like to read my post #309 in another thread which is very relevant here, please.

Regards

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Quick analysis of the New Testament account - it takes on board the historic figures
(Pilot, Herod, Felix etc.) the historic towns (Nazareth, Cappernium, Jerusalem etc..)
and historic events (Roman census, destruction of Jerusalem etc..)
Last time people went to Mount Olympus they didn't see any sign of Greek gods.

I'm thinking of examples such as the Sufi mystic Al Hallaj who worshiped the God of Abraham. He made claims such as "I am truth" and "I am God" just as the gospels say Jesus did. He was executed by the religious authorities, and was reportedly seen by many following his death. The parallels to Jesus are stunning. Should we accept his resurrection based on these eyewitness accounts?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Of course Jesus was circumcised when he was a baby just like all Jewish boys.

Some things are just so obvious, eh?

 

[sooda]

Some things are just so obvious, eh?

Yes... the claim that Jesus, a Jew, wasn't circumcised as an infant is ridiculous.