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Featured Why did God send Messenger to convey His message instead of directly coming to speak?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by InvestigateTruth, Feb 11, 2019.

  1. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    So, for you, Aristotle abandoned logic and rational thinking at that point, but maintained it in other areas?

    Then if someone believes in the Abrahamic God, then they can be logical and rational in other areas like their approach to vaccines and global warming?
     
  2. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    This part is Hezekiah.
    This part is G-d.

    Hezekiah.

    Yes, Micah 3:19 (4:1 in Christian Bibles) is an example.

    Yes, Daniel 12:2 is an example.

    Daniel 12:13 uses this phrase.

    Is this a different question then the one two questions earlier?

    That depends what you mean by it. The Torah mentions "hosts of heaven" so they must have some place they reside. And the Torah mentions a place where dead go, so they must have a place where they reside. As places of reward and punishment, no they are not mentioned in the Torah. They do exist in other Jewish texts as places of temporary reward and punishment after death.

    According to the Jewish tradition, when a person dies, they're judged to go to either one, the other or both.
     
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  3. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    In the Bayán the Báb says that every religion of the past was fit to become universal. The only reason why they failed to attain that mark was the incompetence of their followers. (Shoghi Effendi)

    The essential elements are things like love and unity and the heavenly virtues. Also signs by which future Manifestations could be recognised. But keep in mind that the Revelation of God is primarily about God’s relationship with people, about good and virtuous character and peaceful coexistence.

    Early Christians were spiritual and had properly understood the parables and inner meanings Jesus taught. But over time these things were lost and because they rejected Muhammad they failed to advance spiritually.
     
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  4. ratiocinator

    ratiocinator Strange Loop

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    The reason faith was brought into this discussion was to explain why god doesn't appear and make things obvious to people. It was suggested that belief in god would then be a matter of fact. In that sense faith is believing something without clear evidence. That is why it's a contrast to logic and rational thought - which require reasonable, objective evidence. Absolute proof is unavailable outside of mathematics and abstract logic.

    The word faithfully and the phrase good faith are totally different to the meaning of (religious) faith.

    faith
    faithfully
    good faith
     
  5. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    It's a good point. And thank you for the clarification.
     
  6. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    I did some search. Didnt find any evidence that Hezekiah actually was called Mighty God, prince of peace, and everlasting father..etc. also, I do not see how his reign is everlasting, and forever, or his government has no limit. He was a righteous king though, but these words in my view, are just way too much to be applicable to him. I think, the Chriatians had used these verses and applied them to Jesus, and tried to convince the Jews that the Messiah was supposed to be God, as to justify claim of Jesus to be God is compatible. Later, Jews in order to defend them, they came up with interpreting them for Hezekiah, in order to reject Jesus. Question is, when did the Jews started to interpret isaiah 9 as Hezekiah. Before Jesus? Or later?
    Didnt jews traditionally interpret isaiah 9 for Messiah?


    I think you mean these verses?::

    the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
    3 He will judge between many peoples
    and will settle disputes for strong nations far and wide.

    See, that is my purpose of bringing this up. Accorsing to these verses, God will appear in Jeusalem to judge people. So, going back to OP, if God can speak directly, why did He send prophets and messengers?
     
  7. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    You are presenting it as lie, whereas in Bahai view, it is a mercy from God to talks to humankind in the ways they can bear it, so, to help them not to deprive from guidance of God.
    in Bahai view, every time a Manifetsation of God, such as Muhammad appeared, that was Day of Resurrection, but as the Bab says, They did not explicitly declair it:

    "When the Apostle of God [Muḥammad] appeared, He did not announce unto the unbelievers that the Resurrection had come, for they could not bear the news. "
     
  8. QuestioningMind

    QuestioningMind Well-Known Member

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    Of course. I never said that abandoning logic and reason to accept a god means that you automatically abandon logic and reason in every other part of your life. I simply stated that when you do so when it comes to god(s) it makes it that much easier for people to abandon it in other parts of their life as well.
     
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  9. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    I am arguing that this has always been the meaning and not something we came up with later. If you look at the context, it makes sense:

    Chapter 9 is not the traditional Jewish place for a chapter break. You can see this in the Great Isaiah Scroll of the DSS here. The chapter breaks that everyone uses are a Christian invention and this is one of the cases where they altered the traditional break in order to suggest an alternate meaning. The DSS has a paragraph break at 8:11 and the next one at 9:12. We have it at 8:15 and 9:6. So Jewish tradition is that the first 6 verses of Isa. 9 are actually a continuation of the the previous chapter and logically, they would be talking about the same thing.

    In this post I went through each of the verses starting from the last verse of chapter 8, showing how the language it uses aligns with it being a reference to Hezekiah.

    Actually, I had in mind Malachi 3:19 (4:1 in the Christian translations). I accidentally wrote Michah.

    No, you've quoted the last few words of a previous verse and attached them to another verse.
    Verse 2 says that the nations will ascend the Temple Mount to learn how to walk in G-d's ways. The Temple Mount held the Chamber of Hewn Stone, the place that the Sanhedrin sat. Together with the Priesthood, they were responsible for teaching and judging the nation. This verse is saying that the nations of the world will also come to the Temple Mount for teachings and arbitration. The following verse, verse 3 is only saying that G-d's Law will be used as the Law to settle disputes for the nations of the world.
    It's not talking about G-d literally speaking to people, it's talking about the Torah which is G-d's Word being spread out from Jerusalem. That is how verse 2 ends, "Because out of Zion comes the Torah, and the Word of G-d from Jerusalem". Zion and Jerusalem are the same thing, so these words are just repeating themselves for emphasis.

    I believe I already answered this in my first post in this thread.
     
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  10. spirit_of_dawn

    spirit_of_dawn Active Member

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    Not a single one of these verses denotes the coming of God to earth. Not a single Muslim has understood these verses as meaning God will come to earth. The aforementioned quotes are verbatim quotes from Baha'u'llah's Book of Iqan (certitude). Since Baha'u'lah claims he is God he tries to prove this claim by making unfounded claims about the aforementioned verses being about God coming to earth.
     
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  11. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    While I can see how you see similarities in the language discribing Hezakiah and Isaiah 9, yet, i still see too different. For example, isaiah 9 talks about an everlasting reign, and peace, and you just justifying it, that since he did not live forever, it meana until the time of his death. Well, any king lived, and reigned during his lifetime. So, then this prophecy is fulfilled by many then? Nothing special.
    Now, lets leave that argument asside. We can agree to disagree about your argument.

    From my view, Since the scriptures are the words of God, or inspiration from God, and messages from His prophets, only if the scriptures had said, this Isaiah 9 is about Hezakiah, then one can claim officially that is what God had intended.
    But, none of the prophets, or those who wrote jewish scriptures, later, or during Life of Hezakiah, ever said those prophecies are about him.
    Even Christian Bible, never quotes those verses to attribute them to Jesus. So, officially speaking, I cannot say, that is really what Jesus claimed either.

    Ok,

    But you accidentally refered me to a relevant chapter ;)


    Ok, I quote from begining of chapter 4:


    4 In the last days

    It shall come to pass oin the latter days

    that the mountain of the house of the Lord

    shall be established as the highest of the mountains,

    and it shall be lifted up above the hills;

    and peoples shall flow to it,

    1

    and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

    pbeat their swords into plowshares,

    and their spears into pruning hooks;

    nation shall not lift up sword against nation,

    neither shall they learn war anymore;

    qbut they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree,

    rand no one shall make them afraid,

    sfor the mouth of the Lord of hosts has spoken.

    tall the peoples walk

    each in the name of its god,

    but uwe will walk in the name of the Lord our God

    forever and ever.



    These verses are about last days, clearly it says, the word of lord shall flow from Israel. It does not say, the book of God will be read. It is a direct word of God. So, we can agree to disagree here as well.
     
  12. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    At the end of the explanation there, I explain that the word has two meanings (it's really one meaning, with two frames of reference). And of course it's special, because there are plenty of kings who didn't reign until their death. So it's not saying something that would otherwise be obvious.

    I think that's a silly way of looking at things, because it makes the possible interpretations too broad. It takes away from the usefulness of the text when you can interpolate any meaning you want. The Scriptures were written with intent towards a specific meaning. The way to figure out the intent is to consider the context. That's why the context is there.

    My friend. The last words of verse 1 are "and people shall flow to it". The last words of verse 2 are "are the word of the L-rd from Jerusalem". You're missing almost the entire verse.
     
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  13. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Was the switch from Ishmael to Isaac a lie?
     
  14. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    People as a whole, will say, Why doesn't God come himself to talk to people.

    God already did, thru Jesus Christ, but as it is, people still are not listening.

    What good would it do if God did come, people still wouldn't accept what God would have to say.
    People can't accept what God has said in his word, so what makes people think that they would believe God if he came.

    If people can't accept what God has said in his word, then how are people going to accept God coming saying what he has said in his word.

    If a person can't believe what a person has written to them, then how is that person going to believe that person, even if they came in person to them, saying what they said in the letter.
     
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  15. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    If you want to believe Abraham literally took His son to kill, it is upto you. I see it as symbolic story. He never took anybody to kill, neither any Lamb was killed instead. But, the story wants to teach submission to God's commands.
    There is no reason anybody changed the Torah to replace Ishmael with Issac, neither the Bahai writing says this, neither the Quran or Hadithes says the Torah was altered. From Bahai view, both Torah and Quran are Books of God. In Torah He said it was Issac, and in Islam, He said it was Ismael. I don't have a problem with God changing His own Books. You seem to think, God cannot change His own Books. But there is a wisdom in that.
     
  16. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    So now what are you trying to say, that the Book of Genesis always said Isaac and that it was never changed? But, the Quran and the Baha'i Writings say it was Ishmael and that's okay? But wait, you also say that the Baha'i writings doesn't say the story was altered? Yes it was. By Baha'is. The Bible says it was Isaac. The Baha'is say Ishmael. And, obviously, Baha'is are fine with God changing all sorts of things in the different Books that Baha'is believe he inspired. And, if he changed things, then there are differences in the different religion. And it is God that put them there? Great... just great. All this time I thought Baha'is believed religious leaders changed the "original" message in the different religions, but it was God. And I'm supposed to trust what he says?
     
  17. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Name me one religion that puts into practice what perfectly reflects what God intended? Other than Baha'is of course. Assuming none of them do, then how and why would they become "universal"? Christianity had a big chunk of the world with the Universal or Catholic Church. But I know you don't believe the things that Catholics believe are true. So a religion teaching things that aren't true can even come pretty close to being universal.
     
  18. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    To date no religion so far has remained united so as to become universal because of the failure of its followers to obey the teachings. The main purpose of religion is to unite hearts in love and if this had been adhered to any religion could have become universal. Once the followers cease to focus on love and unity and become entrenched in theological disputes taking sides & splitting into sects they destroy the foundation of their religion and make it ineffectual. Love and unity is the foundation of the religion of God not ritual, ceremony or pageantry. Any religion that will stay the course, loving and united will become universal as the world is seeking love and fellowship not more preaching and theology.

    Now is our chance to stay united and loving. Only the future will show whether we will achieve that or not and become universal or fail like others have.
     
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  19. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Since people don't seem to have the capacity to be "perfectly" loving, do Baha'is expect God to help in changing that... to increase people's capacity to truly love and to be selfless?
     
  20. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    It may not necessarily be love that first unites us or establishes world peace. We may have no other choice but peace and when we taste it for the very first time ever in our history we may actually like it and begin to change. Just like people have learned to love their country or drive a car is second nature. After peace comes we may become lovers of humanity and that doesn’t mean perfection but we’ll be in a much better space and our lives will become a lot happier and meaningful.
     
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