Why did God send Messenger to convey His message instead of directly coming to speak?

[CG Didymus]

Jesus rose from the dead, it was not His Physical body that did.

Yes, that is what Baha'is keep saying. But, if Jesus rose from the dead spiritually, then does that mean his spirit was dead? So not that I'm convinced he rose physically, however that is what early Christians and most Christians today believe. We go around and around with this. It is the Christian Scriptures that say he rose physically from the dead. Baha'is try to explain it away by saying that the Christians misunderstood and misinterpreted their own Scriptures, but Christians wrote it. And other Christians preached it. That is what they believe. If that is not what happened, then they are mixed up and confused or worse... they are liars.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

God says it is so.

So says man over and over and over......

Yet in my opinion 2 x Messengers have come since Muhammad. They are not widely accepted at this time. That will not be the case in the future.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes, that is what Baha'is keep saying. But, if Jesus rose from the dead spiritually, then does that mean his spirit was dead? So not that I'm convinced he rose physically, however that is what early Christians and most Christians today believe. We go around and around with this. It is the Christian Scriptures that say he rose physically from the dead. Baha'is try to explain it away by saying that the Christians misunderstood and misinterpreted their own Scriptures, but Christians wrote it. And other Christians preached it. That is what they believe. If that is not what happened, then they are mixed up and confused or worse... they are liars.

Such is life CG, it may be we never see the same things on this or any subject. The Spirirual Resurectuon of Jesus, seen by the Disciples in such a way that allowed for a powerful metephor, proved to the Disciples that True Life is of the Spirit and that the flesh amounts to nothing.

That is why the bible talks about being born again, so the1st death does not overcome.

It is not hard to see that Christianity did not get the doctrine right, as look at the result. The Trinity still divides peopes in the church and outside it.

The answer is what Muhammad offered. Do not make Christ God in a Trinity. While Christ is not God in Essence, Christ is One with God as Christ is a perfect relection of the Attributes, born of the Holy Spirit. A Messenger of God.

It is my oponion that there is no better explanation than what Abdul'baha offered.

Regards Tony

 

[Remté]

So says man over and over and over......

Yet in my opinion 2 x Messengers have come since Muhammad. They are not widely accepted at this time. That wil not be the case in the future.

Regards Tony

They are extremely narrowly accepted and even then with the help of lies.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

They are extremely narrowly accepted and even then with the help of lies.

That is why God sends Mesengers, it gives us a choice, you have stated yours and I mine. Muhammad has said there is no compulsion in religion.

I wonder why a compulsion aspect was introduced and inforced?

Regards Tony

 

[syo]

Ok, I agree, Jesus taught about love and there is nothing above. But did humanity learn it completely and the way they should?

People don't set love into action. There is nothing wrong with the teaching of Jesus.

 

[syo]

It is not about what is inferior. Love is very important, and Baha'u'llah reiterated what Jesus said about love, but He also wrote about justice. Without justice, love cannot be fully realized in this world. Love must needs be tempered with justice. This is the Day of Justice.

Nah, orthodox say love your enemy. There is no justice in that.

 

[Trailblazer]

Nah, orthodox say love your enemy. There is no justice in that.

We are not to show love and compassion to certain people because it is not doing them a favor since it only makes them persist in their bad behavior. I suppose this is one difference between the Christian and Baha'i beliefs.

“O ye beloved of the Lord! The Kingdom of God is founded upon equity and justice, and also upon mercy, compassion, and kindness to every living soul. Strive ye then with all your heart to treat compassionately all humankind—except for those who have some selfish, private motive, or some disease of the soul. Kindness cannot be shown the tyrant, the deceiver, or the thief, because, far from awakening them to the error of their ways, it maketh them to continue in their perversity as before. No matter how much kindliness ye may expend upon the liar, he will but lie the more, for he believeth you to be deceived, while ye understand him but too well, and only remain silent out of your extreme compassion.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 158

 

[syo]

We are not to show love and compassion to certain people because it is not doing them a favor since it only makes them persist in their bad behavior. I suppose this is one difference between the Christian and Baha'i beliefs.

“O ye beloved of the Lord! The Kingdom of God is founded upon equity and justice, and also upon mercy, compassion, and kindness to every living soul. Strive ye then with all your heart to treat compassionately all humankind—except for those who have some selfish, private motive, or some disease of the soul. Kindness cannot be shown the tyrant, the deceiver, or the thief, because, far from awakening them to the error of their ways, it maketh them to continue in their perversity as before. No matter how much kindliness ye may expend upon the liar, he will but lie the more, for he believeth you to be deceived, while ye understand him but too well, and only remain silent out of your extreme compassion.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 158

I guess the two religions are different here.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Yes, that is what Baha'is keep saying. But, if Jesus rose from the dead spiritually, then does that mean his spirit was dead? So not that I'm convinced he rose physically, however that is what early Christians and most Christians today believe. We go around and around with this. It is the Christian Scriptures that say he rose physically from the dead. Baha'is try to explain it away by saying that the Christians misunderstood and misinterpreted their own Scriptures, but Christians wrote it. And other Christians preached it. That is what they believe. If that is not what happened, then they are mixed up and confused or worse... they are liars.

Jesus said, no signs will be given except sign of Jonas. Did that come to pass literally? Was Jesus inside a fish for three days? If the authors of Bible wanted to make up a story, why should they make it like that?
It is teaching that, Jonah being in belly of fish, metaphorically have the same meaning of christ being dead for 3 days.
Remember the dream the King had. I mean, the seven skinny cows and seven fat cows.
He also had a dream of a branch of wheat, having 7 grains. Both dreams have same interpretations, though one was expressed with 7 cows, another with 7 wheats. Did it literally come to pass? Did seven skinny cows eat seven fat cows, or did wheats appeared? So is with sign of Jonas or death of Christ for three days. None of them are literal. It means the cause of God had almost died. But the Book is written in this manner, so, people intelligence are tested. We already talked about, this is how God separated people. The goal of symbolic stories, has been to separate people from people.

 

[Muffled]

How do you know and would that count as seeing god?

I believe I know because I know God well.

It does not count as seeing God but it is as close as one can get. One may also see God in an image He projects but that doesn't count either.

 

[Muffled]

There are verses that prophecises we will see God face to face. When Jesus came, for now, saw Him through a Mirror. if you look at the OT, it prophecies about Lord of Host.
The Book also says, Elijah was taken to heaven, so, when you say God does not come, becuase they kill Him, He can go up as soon as they want to kill Him, like elijah went up.

I believe that is not possible God can't be viewed through a mirror because He doesn't have viewable substance. I have argued this one before with Bah'ais and there is never a good argument from them.

I believe that defeats the whole purpose but I do believe He can be embodied clandestinely and the Book of Revelation seems to say so although Revelation is not always clear about things.

 

[Muffled]

This is teaching.^

I believe it is. Do evil and you could be punished.

 

[paarsurrey]

Then one must consider the possibility that it is to be another Messenger that will come, who will again be as Muhammad was; and reflect the 'Glory of God'.

Regards Tony

Did Bahaullah claim to be Messenger of G-d, please? If Bahaullah was a god as Bahais believe him to be, then he cannot be a messenger of himself, please.

Regards

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Did Bahaullah claim to be Messenger of G-d, please? If Bahaullah was a god as Bahais believe him to be, then he cannot be a messenger of himself, please.

Regards

Baha'u'llah has shown that a Messenger from God can also be called a Manifestarion of God. Thus the Bab, Muhammad and Christ, to name a few, were Messengers/Manifestations of God. The Essence of God can not be known, but all we can know of God is what the Manifestations show us and tell us about.

All these Manifestations share the same Essence;

"Know thou assuredly that the essence of all the Prophets of God is one and the same..." -- Bahá'u'lláh

Man can never have access to what is God, the door is closed, Gods mercy allows us to have a glimpse;

"The door of the knowledge of the Ancient Being hath ever been, and will continue for ever to be, closed in the face of men. No man's understanding shall ever gain access unto His holy court. As a token of His mercy, however, and as a proof of His loving-kindness, He hath manifested unto men the Day Stars of His divine guidance, the Symbols of His divine unity, and hath ordained the knowledge of these sanctified Beings to be identical with the knowledge of His own Self.... Every one of them is the Way of God that connecteth this world with the realms above..." Baha'u'llah

Thus to accept the Manifestation is to accept the knowledge of God, all we can know of God.

Regards Tony

 

[paarsurrey]

Baha'u'llah has shown that a Messenger from God can also be called a Manifestation of God. Thus the Bab, Muhammad and Christ, to name a few, were Messengers/Manifestations of God. The Essence of God can not be known, but all we can know of God is what the Manifestations show us and tell us about.

All these Manifestations share the same Essence;

"Know thou assuredly that the essence of all the Prophets of God is one and the same..." -- Bahá'u'lláh

Man can never have access to what is God, the door is closed, Gods mercy allows us to have a glimpse;

"The door of the knowledge of the Ancient Being hath ever been, and will continue for ever to be, closed in the face of men. No man's understanding shall ever gain access unto His holy court. As a token of His mercy, however, and as a proof of His loving-kindness, He hath manifested unto men the Day Stars of His divine guidance, the Symbols of His divine unity, and hath ordained the knowledge of these sanctified Beings to be identical with the knowledge of His own Self.... Every one of them is the Way of God that connecteth this world with the realms above..." Baha'u'llah

Thus to accept the Manifestation is to accept the knowledge of God, all we can know of God.

Regards Tony

"Baha'u'llah has shown that a Messenger from God can also be called a Manifestation of God."

So. Bahaullah did not claim to be a Messenger of God. If yes then please quote from Kitab-e-Iqan.
And as our another Bahai friend here told us that Bahaullah has expressly denied claiming to be any sort of God.
In that case Bahaullah is neither a Messenger of God nor a god, please. Right, please?
Manifestation of God is a term coined by Bahaullah/Bahais and it has no seal/certification from Quran, please.
If yes, then please quote from Quran.
"Shown" is not the same as claiming or becoming, please.

Regards

 

[TransmutingSoul]

"Baha'u'llah has shown that a Messenger from God can also be called a Manifestation of God."

So. Bahaullah did not claim to be a Messenger of God. If yes then please quote from Kitab-e-Iqan.
And as our another Bahai friend here told us that Bahaullah has expressly denied claiming to be any sort of God.
In that case Bahaullah is neither a Messenger of God nor a god, please. Right, please?
Manifestation of God is a term coined by Bahaullah/Bahais and it has no seal/certification from Quran, please.
If yes, then please quote from Quran.
"Shown" is not the same as claiming or becoming, please.

Regards

Personally I think we discussed this in deatil already, no need to go over old ground, we can consider new thoughts. I see all the Messengers are Manifestations of God. I make no difference between them.

Christ said in the Bible,

John 16:12-15 "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you."

Baha'u'llah is the Father, the Spirit of Tuth Christ promised, who has now shown us what we could not accept. It was not Muhammad that was to openly gift to humanity this spiritual aspect of Faith.

Regards Tony

 

[sooda]

And yet it says, God spoke directly to Moses! And this story is described fully in the Torah, that God spoke to Moses directly, and He appeared to Him in the cloud. The verse of Quran clearly repeats same idea, but this time saying God comes to humanity in the clouds!

I thought it was the angel Jibril.

 

[paarsurrey]

One may like to read yet another understanding of the verse/s [2:207] to [2:214],specifically verse
[2:211],for word meaning,translation and interpretation:
The Holy Quran
The Holy Quran
It pertained to Battle of Badr and fulfilled then, if one may understand, please. Right, please?

For verse of Quran verse [2:211] I give here the pages for which I earlier provided the link for perusal of our friends.
Regards

 

[Trailblazer]

I guess the two religions are different here.

Yes, in certain ways they are very different.