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Featured Why did God send Messenger to convey His message instead of directly coming to speak?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by InvestigateTruth, Feb 11, 2019.

  1. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that is right.
    The way all these make sense to me, is, the idea of progressive revelation. Just as there was a physical evolution, the humanity from the mind and spiritual prespective needs to progress and evolve. God, sent prophet after prophet to teach more everytime, to cause human understanding and civilization progress, as He is a creator, and always continue to create. So, for people to be ready to accept Jesus teachings, they needed the teachings from previous prophets, like grade one, two,..etc. before going to grade 4, one needs to learn grade 3 stuff, and before that grade 2... thus, Noah, Abraham, and Moses each taught lower grades, until Jesus came. Jesus taught certain things, but not the whole truth, since He said, they cannot bear it, even though He has still many things to say. But why should these progressive revelations stop, when Jesus said, there is still many things He has to say?
     
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  2. syo

    syo Well-Known Member

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    I think Jesus taught about love and love is a milestone. Any other revelation is inferior to love. I think nothing tops love.
     
  3. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    Ok, I agree, Jesus taught about love and there is nothing above. But did humanity learn it completely and the way they should? Suppose, parent teach to her childeren to love one another, yet, they continue to fight. Should the parent leave them to themselves, saying I taught you already love, so, good bye?
    In zorohasrism, they say, zoraster taught we need, good words, good deeds, and good taughts. And many say, that s all is needed. Yes, i agree, but how prectically be able to have good taught, deeds, and words is really what is needed.
    I think even Moses taught love. He said treat your neighbour fairly, and love God, and God loves you. There is nothing above love of God.
     
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  4. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    "the Question is why He did not directly make Himself appear on earth and talk to humanity?"

    It is not the way GodAllahYHVH does:
    [17:78]
    This has been Our way with Our Messengers whom We sent before thee; and thou wilt not find any change in Our way.
    The Holy Quran - Chapter: 17: Bani Isra'il

    Regards
     
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  5. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Please find some more time as one has started the thread and give the focal verse of Quran that is in one's mind with the verses in the context and then give your argument in support of one's point of view. Right, please?

    Regards
     
  6. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Very good and reasonable points, I appreciate them.
    Regards
     
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  7. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    For the convenience of everybody I give the verse in focus by our friend InvestigateTruth with the verses in the context for correct understanding :

    [2:207]
    And when it is said to him, ‘Fear Allah,’ pride incites him to further sin. So Hell shall be his sufficient reward; and surely, it is an evil place of rest.
    [2:208]
    And of men there is he who would sell himself to seek the pleasure of Allah; and Allah is Compassionate to His servants.
    [2:209]
    O ye who believe! come into submission wholly and follow not the footsteps of Satan; surely, he is your open enemy.
    [2:210]
    But if you slip after the clear Signs that have come to you, then know that Allah is Mighty, Wise.
    [2:211]
    Are they waiting for anything but that Allah should come to them in the coverings of the clouds with angels, and the matter be decided? And to Allah do all things return.

    [2:212]
    Ask of the children of Israel how many clear Signs We gave them. But whoso changes the gift of Allah after it has come to him, surely, then, Allah is severe in punishing.
    [2:213]
    The life of this world is made to appear attractive to those who disbelieve; and they scoff at those who believe. But those who fear God shall be above them on the Day of Resurrection; and Allah bestows His gifts on whomsoever He pleases without reckoning.
    [2:214]
    Mankind were one community, then they differed among themselves, so Allah raised Prophets as bearers of good tidings and as warners, and sent down with them the Book containing the truth that He might judge between the people wherein they differed. But now they began to differ about the Book, and none differed about it except those to whom it was given, after clear Signs had come to them, out of envy towards one another. Now has Allah, by His command, guided the believers to the truth in regard to which they (the unbelievers) differed; and Allah guides whomsoever He pleases to the right path.
    The Holy Quran - Chapter: 2: Al-Baqarah
    I am with you that verse" [2:211]Are they waiting for anything but that Allah should come to them in the coverings of the clouds with angels, and the matter be decided? And to Allah do all things return."
    does not as you said "mean God will be *on earth*. I think when we meet God the earth will no longer be."
    So I believe our friend InvestigateTruth has not understood it correctly. He is requested ,therefore, to revise his understanding of the verse of Quran,please.

    Regards
     
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  8. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    One may like to read yet another understanding of the verse/s [2:207] to [2:214],specifically verse
    [2:211],for word meaning,translation and interpretation:
    The Holy Quran
    The Holy Quran
    It pertained to Battle of Badr and fulfilled then, if one may understand, please. Right, please?

    Regards
     
    #208 paarsurrey, Feb 18, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2019
  9. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    It is not about what is inferior. Love is very important, and Baha'u'llah reiterated what Jesus said about love, but He also wrote about justice. Without justice, love cannot be fully realized in this world. Love must needs be tempered with justice. This is the Day of Justice.
     
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  10. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    This observation is correct. My understanding is Bahaullah misunderstood the verse 2:211 of Quran, one could see it from the context verses. Godhead does not fit on any human being. Quran is very clear about it.
    Others could of course differ with me, with reasons or none.
    Regards
     
  11. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg A World Citizen
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    Then one must consider the possibility that it is to be another Messenger that will come, who will again be as Muhammad was; and reflect the 'Glory of God'.

    Regards Tony
     
  12. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg A World Citizen
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    That is not correct. :)

    Jesus rose from the dead, it was not His Physical body that did.

    Evil exists, it is the lack of good.

    It would be good to acknowledge that Baha'i have a different way of looking at scripture, not that we discard what was recorded.

    History has proved, very few leaders of any Faith, up to the Bab, embraced the one promised in their scriptures.

    Thus the thread title, why does God send Messengers, that other men think they know more than, rather than God being manifested directly.

    Regards Tony
     
  13. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg A World Citizen
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    CG a reasonable explanation has also been supplied to his question.

    The answer is this talk, it is a new translation;

    "Intelligible Realities and Their Expression through Sensible Forms"

    (Some Answered Questions)
    Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

    This is also useful;

    The Four Criteria of Comprehension

    Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

    Regards Tony
     
    #213 Tony Bristow-Stagg, Feb 18, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2019
  14. lunamoth

    lunamoth Will to love

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    With all respect, we are quite imperfect at love. And justice is far trickier. I think that as imperfect humans, we need to focus as much as possible on keeping people safe and fed and cared for, and justice, while also a worthy goal, is secondary. I know - I see the connection between the two, but I think we need to put caring for people first.
     
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  15. Remté

    Remté Active Member

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    Muhammad was the last messenger.
     
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  16. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg A World Citizen
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    I have heard the Jews, Christains, Muslims and various other faiths say the same thing.

    As it has not happened, Messengers have come, why do we continue to choose to chain Gods hands?

    Personally I do not see Muhammad as the last Messenger, but as the seal of the Prophets.

    After all, expectation for a return are well supported.

    Regards Tony
     
  17. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    I agree, without love and caring we have nothing to build justice upon...
    Love comes first, that is why Jesus came first.
     
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  18. Remté

    Remté Active Member

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    God says it is so.
     
  19. Remté

    Remté Active Member

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    And we're still waiting for justice? Even love was long before Jesus.
     
  20. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    Humans move ever so slowly but they will catch on eventually... :rolleyes:
     
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