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Why did God send Jesus at the time and place he did?

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
I think not the military and judicial systems were operated by the Pharisetic sect. Paul was trained and raised a Pharisee of Pharisees and was given the task of enforcing the will of the Sanhedrin to persecute Christianity.
Sadducees - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There were some Pharisees in the Sanhedrin. However, what military system are you even talking about? The Jews didn't have a formal military system during the time of Jesus.

The Sadducees were the major power players. The reason is because they were aligned with the Romans.

The Pharisees really rose into power after the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple and the resulting disappearance of the Sadducees (among other sects).
 
My reply to that Ben would be my fore comment is what I was taught in school that the angel visited Mary and the rest and that is the Christian belief so thats how its stands that God send his angel ergo God decided to send Jesus Implying he mustve thought it the correct time before the Devil could get a upper hand or God could never redeem himself, Surely. Im also aware of your facts within the roman culture and history and thats a good Theory certainly cant see why it would be an invalid point, Somebody else with more knowledge than me may be able to challenge that threory however its only a theory based upon texts in the Bible and not how the Bible implicates Jesus into our realm.
 

kylixguru

Well-Known Member
If you believe Jesus was who you say he was, why did God send him at the time and place He did? It seems to me that the Jewish population in the area didn't seem to be having any major problems. That is unless you count the Roman occupation, which Jesus didn't seem to mind. If it was to redeem the Jewish population for their sins, that is if they accepted him as their savior, which they didn't, he missed the mark there. If it was to spread the new Christian religion among the pagans then wouldn't God have sent him to the pagans instead of the Israelites (who didn't appear to want him).

Just a thought, I'm sure someone out there has a logical answer.
This is a question I can answer but it's going to be a quickie for now.

Jesus was sent at the very last moment the blueprint schedule allowed for. It was at the very tail end of the 4th millennium from the beginning. The "greater light to rule the day" had to be "created" within this millennia. Thus, we have the Son of God being born prior to the turn of the 5th millennia.

If it wasn't Jesus then historians are going to have to find some other figure from history among those same peoples during the 4th millennia who has had a similar or greater stature than Jesus whose ideologies were a light to the Gentiles and that the Gentiles have pretty much made a mockery of and brought it to a state of death. As far as I can tell, there really is only one contender for that honor.

He was sent at a time when it was pretty much a given that the Jews would reject Him. The reason is because He came specifically to be killed. I agree He was delivered over to the Gentiles and that it was them who put Him to death. The Gospels were written that way so that you could understand what **WOULD** happen, not necessarily what actually happened.

The Gentiles (the "fishes" created on Day 5) received the "body of Christ" but they have mocked, scourged and crucified their King by what they have done with what they were given.
 

ninerbuff

godless wonder
If you believe Jesus was who you say he was, why did God send him at the time and place He did? It seems to me that the Jewish population in the area didn't seem to be having any major problems. That is unless you count the Roman occupation, which Jesus didn't seem to mind. If it was to redeem the Jewish population for their sins, that is if they accepted him as their savior, which they didn't, he missed the mark there. If it was to spread the new Christian religion among the pagans then wouldn't God have sent him to the pagans instead of the Israelites (who didn't appear to want him).

Just a thought, I'm sure someone out there has a logical answer.
Because mythology was running out of man gods.
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
If you believe Jesus was who you say he was, why did God send him at the time and place He did? It seems to me that the Jewish population in the area didn't seem to be having any major problems. That is unless you count the Roman occupation, which Jesus didn't seem to mind. If it was to redeem the Jewish population for their sins, that is if they accepted him as their savior, which they didn't, he missed the mark there. If it was to spread the new Christian religion among the pagans then wouldn't God have sent him to the pagans instead of the Israelites (who didn't appear to want him).

Just a thought, I'm sure someone out there has a logical answer.
The first problem is the assumption that Jesus was sent by God instead of working from his own social and personal motives.
now for addressing to one thought that scholars discuss about this topic. it would be interesting to read about the various miracle makers in the area during the times of Jesus, some of them have even entered the New Testament canon as competitors to Jesus.
Who knows. maybe Jesus was the most successful of these celebrity miracle makers? a 1st century Judean Uri Geller. only instead of stopping clocks he turned water into wine.
Also, it would be interesting to study the whole concept of apotheosis or deification throughout the Roman empire. it was a successful political tool of propaganda, that might have been put to use around the aura of the Jewish man from Galilee.
What ever are the facts around this. this is enough food for thought to study Jesus as a human being carefully instead of starting from a biased point of considering him as a divine being.
If I was to ever consider another man as Divine, I would spend every second of everyday studying every detail about this man, every decision he makes, every action he does, all of his knee jerks reactions. I might even come to adore this man, and this is where it probably would end, while many other people around the world instantly make the 'leap of faith' of treating a man as God without questioning this man, challenging him, debating him, or analysing his social and political ideas and motives. all that goes against the very basic tradition that Jesus himself grew up with and has practiced.
Jesus as a Jewish man himself, knew like any other Jewish man, that idolizing oneself as a messiah or a God is an abomination in Jewish tradition.
Jewish tradition very basics which is found in the Hebrew Bible is in the very name of the nation- Israel. which literally means 'To struggle with God'. the Hebrew Bible tells Jews that Jacob has physically struggled with an angel of the Lord, or with the Lord himself, in human form, pretty much a Biblical description of a hand to hand combat. the Hebrew Bible also tells us that Jacob prevailed and physically overcome the angel of God. Jacob then demanded a blessing. the being declared that from then on, Jacob would be called Israel. which means "one that struggled with the divine angel" (Josephus), "one who has prevailed with God" (Rashi), "a man seeing God" (Whiston), "he will rule as God" (Strong), or "a prince with God" (Morris)
Jacob asked the being's name, but he refused to answer. Afterwards Jacob named the place where he struggled with the angel Peniel, saying "I have seen God face to face and lived."
While Jesus preached to turn the other cheek when others attack you. the very Biblical name of the nation of Israel means to physically fight God and see how good you really are.
From the Patriarch Jacob, now Israel. the tribes of Israel originated. today the Jewish people are considered the people from the Biblical tribes of Judah and Benjamin.
The Bible tells us that with the growth of the threat from Philistine incursions, the Israelite tribes decided to form a strong centralised monarchy to meet the challenge. The first king of this new entity was Saul, who came from the Tribe of Benjamin, (1 Samuel 9:1-2) which at the time was the smallest of the tribes.
After the death of Saul, all the tribes other than Judah remained loyal to the House of Saul, while Judah chose David as its king. However, after the death of Ish-bosheth, Saul's son and successor to the throne of Israel, all the other Israelite tribes made David, who was then the king of Judah, king of a re-united Kingdom of Israel.

Because of the importance of King David in Jewish tradition. the writers of the New Testament made sure to make a fictional genealogical link to King David, in order to inflate Jesus with royal proportions and to give more strength to his importance. however the sharp differences between the aura around King David in Jewish tradition, and the aura around Jesus in Christian tradition is remarkable. David became a King over Israel, because God favoured his humility. while in Christian tradition all streams focus on a major theme, proving the divinity of Jesus and elevating him above normal human beings.
King David was a Warrior-Poet, some of the most outstanding Biblical poetic pieces dedicated to Israelites in times of distress and war are attributed to him. Jesus if the New Testament is correct, had a different view of life, he chose to turn the other cheek, and let other men do battle for his nation.
Many Jewish men cannot relate to that kind of philosophy of life. Jewish men also despise other men preaching foreign dogmas to them, or other Jewish men trying to enforce their own religious world view, they look at it so badly, that in their hearts, they will always remember the potential danger this man poses to social stability. I cannot help but say that this is how Jewish men felt when hearing another citizen proclaiming himself a God.
 
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Caladan you obviously know your area but the Bible and Christian point of view is that God sent his angel to tell Mary the news hense there is no real debate from a Christian point of view leaving it to stand that God sent him where and when he did to get an upper hand over evil or for a simularily speculatable reason.
 

lockyfan

Active Member
Simple and easy. In Daniel, there were Prophesies about the "messiah" Jesus being that Messiah came and they put him to death.

Also The Jews were going through a rough time. They were under the Roman yoke and wanted to be free. When Jesus said he was not going to ead them in a rebellion against Rome because it was not his time to rule yet, they had him killed. The people protected him until this point and then they turned.

But they all knew the Messiah would be coming around that time and were looking forward to him coming. Because of Bible Prophecy.

Also he is not just some quickie idea, at that point it had taken 4000 years for his coming to earth to actually come to fruition. So it really was a long time coming.
 

kylixguru

Well-Known Member
Really! Are you sure? What do you say about the following?

= The Alleged Sons of God =

According to an ancient Roman policy, any able-bodied man from the conquered lands, who joined the Roman Army, would obtain authomatic citizenship. And if he was lucky enough to reach retirement age, he could choose where he would like to spend the rest of his life, and he would be granted a piece of land or farm as severance pay for his services to the Empire. Rome excluded.

When the Roman Legions under Pompey arrived in the Middle East and conquered Sidon, a man called Pantera applied to join the Army and was accepted. Then, he was conscripted into the Roman Legion which got stationed in Syria. When he reached retirement age, he chose to return to Sidon and got his farm there to live for the rest of his life.

According to Josephus, in the year 4 BCE, there was a local revolt in Israel against Herod. It became known as the Revolt of the Pharisees. It was so strong that it was threatening to depose him. Herod appealed to Rome for help and Caesar gave orders to the Legion stationed in Syria to cross over into Israel and put down the revolt.

Thousands of Roman soldiers came over and the task was quite easy. They crucified a few thousand Jews, and decided to stay for some time to make sure the discontent were subdued. In the meantime, the Roman soldiers would rape young Jewish ladies almost daily.

As it was to expect, many children were born as a result of those rapes. Since the unfortunate mothers were not to blame for promiscuity, the religious authorities forbade to ostracize them or to consider their children as mamzerim or ba$tards. But they grew up with the epithet of "sons of God." (Lecture on the "Historical Jesus" at Stanphord University)

Since Jesus was born just about that time, I am of the opinion that's much more prudent and less embarrassing to acknowledge that he was a biological son of Joseph's than to run the risk that Jesus might have been one of those sons of God.

Now, regarding Mark 7:24, I have here with me two different Bible translations. One is the Catholic New American version of the Bible wherefrom I read that when Jesus went to Sidon, he would retire into a certain house and wanted no one to recognize him in there. The other translation is the King James version, wherefrom I read that when Jesus went to Sidon, he would enter into a certain house and would
have no man know it.

Although I am not assuming anything, everyone of us has all the right in the world to speculate about such a shouting evidence and to think that there was something fishy going on for Jesus to insist on secrecy about his being in Sidon or in that certain house. At that time Joseph had been long dead. Could it be that jesus knew about his real origins and was interacting with his real father? Everything is possible, but if you ask me, I am still in favour that he was rather a biological son of
Joseph's.

What's your reaction to all the above?

Ben:
That this is (one of) the MOST plausible account(s) of what REALLY happened I have heard to date.
 
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A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
Just a thought, I'm sure someone out there has a logical answer.

Place = Jesus came for the Jews so he died at the center of Jewish life - Jerusalem

Time = Roman roads conneceted the Empire, and there was pax Romana. This meant that the Gospel could travel freely to the entire known world without the hindrence of wars.
 

1AOA1

Active Member
If you believe Jesus was who you say he was, why did God send him at the time and place He did? It seems to me that the Jewish population in the area didn't seem to be having any major problems. That is unless you count the Roman occupation, which Jesus didn't seem to mind. If it was to redeem the Jewish population for their sins, that is if they accepted him as their savior, which they didn't, he missed the mark there. If it was to spread the new Christian religion among the pagans then wouldn't God have sent him to the pagans instead of the Israelites (who didn't appear to want him).

Just a thought, I'm sure someone out there has a logical answer.
:confused: He came for the Jews?
 

lockyfan

Active Member
Place = Jesus came for the Jews so he died at the center of Jewish life - Jerusalem

Time = Roman roads conneceted the Empire, and there was pax Romana. This meant that the Gospel could travel freely to the entire known world without the hindrence of wars.

He came for all Genesis 3:15 Satan is the serpent Jesus is the seed of the woman Jesus will destroy satan. Thus evil will leave because the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one (satan).

Jesus died so that we can have everlasting life on a paradise earth (ps 37:10-11, 29)

Jesus was to be the one trying to get the Jews or as many as possible as that was his commission, but he was also to start the public ministry and leave it to the diciples and Apostles. the were to continue on to the rest of the world and they did at that time (Matt 24:14) (Matt 28:19-20) Now there is more faithful Christians following this work that was started way back then!
 

esmith

Veteran Member
He came for all Genesis 3:15 Satan is the serpent Jesus is the seed of the woman Jesus will destroy satan. Thus evil will leave because the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one (satan).!

Don't know where you get this, but suspect it is the dogma of the Christian religion. The book of Genesis is 1 book of what is commonly called the 5 Books Of Moses or the Jewish Toraha. The snake is "the shrewdest of all wild beast" and not identified with evil. The figure "Satan" is a very late developing idea in Jewish theology and continued into Christianity. So I do not see how you can take something that is one thing and turn it into something that it isn't.

Jesus died so that we can have everlasting life on a paradise earth (ps 37:10-11, 29)

Again you are taking a verse and attempting to make it support your beliefs. This Psalm is an acrostic psalm whose themes, structure, and vocabulary are characteristic of Proverbs. This Psalm should be considered a wisdom Psalm. It expresses the certainty that ultimately the righteous will succeed and will inherit the land, and the wicked will fail. Your Jesus has nothing to do with the authors writings.

Jesus was to be the one trying to get the Jews or as many as possible as that was his commission, but he was also to start the public ministry and leave it to the diciples and Apostles. the were to continue on to the rest of the world and they did at that time (Matt 24:14) (Matt 28:19-20) Now there is more faithful Christians following this work that was started way back then

Again you are making superpositions to further the beliefs of Paul and his followers.
 

lockyfan

Active Member
Don't know where you get this, but suspect it is the dogma of the Christian religion. The book of Genesis is 1 book of what is commonly called the 5 Books Of Moses or the Jewish Toraha. The snake is "the shrewdest of all wild beast" and not identified with evil. The figure "Satan" is a very late developing idea in Jewish theology and continued into Christianity. So I do not see how you can take something that is one thing and turn it into something that it isn't.

Yes but if you look at 2 timothy 3:16-17. All scripture is inspired of God. So Moses may have been the person who wrote it down, but just like a business man may get his secretary to take down his letters and write them, God used men to put it into their own words and ways but then kept it around for us to read.

Also I use more then one scripture to back this pearl of truth or "dogma" as you put it.

Gen 3:15
And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel.


Gen 3:1
Now the serpent proved to be the most cautious of all the wild beasts of the field that Jehovah God had made. So it began to say to the woman: “Is it really so that God said YOU must not eat from every tree of the garden?”

What made the serpent speak?

Rev 12:9
So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.

Again you are taking a verse and attempting to make it support your beliefs. This Psalm is an acrostic psalm whose themes, structure, and vocabulary are characteristic of Proverbs. This Psalm should be considered a wisdom Psalm. It expresses the certainty that ultimately the righteous will succeed and will inherit the land, and the wicked will fail. Your Jesus has nothing to do with the authors writings.

So you are saying that it is not wise to have a hope about the future that is backed up in other parts of the bible as well?

Again you are making superpositions to further the beliefs of Paul and his followers.
No actually Christ and his followers. Paul was one of those.

Do not lump all "christian" congregations into the one belief of some certain churches. We are not all of that mold. Some of us go by Gods word the Bible, not Mans.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
If you believe Jesus was who you say he was, why did God send him at the time and place He did? It seems to me that the Jewish population in the area didn't seem to be having any major problems. That is unless you count the Roman occupation, which Jesus didn't seem to mind. If it was to redeem the Jewish population for their sins, that is if they accepted him as their savior, which they didn't, he missed the mark there. If it was to spread the new Christian religion among the pagans then wouldn't God have sent him to the pagans instead of the Israelites (who didn't appear to want him).

Just a thought, I'm sure someone out there has a logical answer.


the timing of the Messiahs arrival had been pre determined many centuries earlier.

The prophet Daniel was given the word of when the Messiah would arrive. At the time of Daniels prophecy, Jerusalem was destroyed and many from the nation were in captivity in Babylon but others had been dispersed to neighboring nations.

“O Daniel, now I have come forth to make you have insight with understanding. 23 At the start of your entreaties a word went forth, and I myself have come to make report, because you are someone very desirable. So give consideration to the matter, and have understanding in the thing seen.

24 “There are seventy weeks that have been determined upon your people and upon your holy city, in order to terminate the transgression, and to finish off sin, and to make atonement for error, and to bring in righteousness for times indefinite, and to imprint a seal upon vision and prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies. 25 And you should know and have the insight [that] from the going forth of [the] word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Mes‧si′ah [the] Leader, there will be seven weeks, also sixty-two weeks. She will return and be actually rebuilt, with a public square and moat, but in the straits of the times.

26 “And after the sixty-two weeks Mes‧si′ah will be cut off, with nothing for himself.


The book of Daniel was written around 536 BCE

The going forth of the word to restore and rebuild jerusalem came in the 20th year of King Artaxerxes of Persia, in the month of Nisan in the year 455 BCE.
The 'weeks' are 'weeks of years' according to the the Tanakh which are a total 483 years (im not explaining how the number is worked out here but PM me if you'd like the details)

from the year 455 BCE less 483 years = 29CE. This was the year Jesus was baptized and began his ministry.
 

esmith

Veteran Member
Yes but if you look at 2 timothy 3:16-17. All scripture is inspired of God. So Moses may have been the person who wrote it down, but just like a business man may get his secretary to take down his letters and write them, God used men to put it into their own words and ways but then kept it around for us to read.
First let's keep reference to the NT out of this discussion. I realize that Christian's use the Hebrew Bible to support the writings in the New Testament but we are discussing the Hebrew Bible and your reference to the New Testament to prove a point in the Hebrew Bible is invalid. As far as I am concerned, along with the majority of religious scholars, the Bible was written by many authors. But I digress, we are discussing Genesis. Moses was not the author of the Toraha (5 Books of Moses). How could he foresee his own death and funeral? All literature is driven by conflicts, which creates drama. This literature was not written for modern man, it was written for people of the ancient near east when it was a oral-aural presentation The script writer or writers of this book used many literary devices to focus the audience's attention to what the author desired to show. For example read the binding account of Abraham (Genesis 22). We as the audience know this is a test of Abraham, but Abraham doesn't. The author builds the story up very slowly until the climax. They didn't have movies back then, and good stories kept people entertained while they explained the religion of Israel. So stop trying to make this literary work apply to modern man or to the authentication of the New Testament.
 

astarath

Well-Known Member
I would disagree that NT can not be used in discussion of OT as the prophecies fulfilled in the NT give clarification to the OT.
 

esmith

Veteran Member
Gen 3:15
And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel.

I am fairly certain that Christians attempt to use this verse to prove that Jesus was the messiah. However, would you explain what YOU read into this verse.

Gen 3:1
Now the serpent proved to be the most cautious of all the wild beasts of the field that Jehovah God had made. So it began to say to the woman: “Is it really so that God said YOU must not eat from every tree of the garden?”

What made the serpent speak?

The first 11 Chapters of Genesis is considered to be based on myths and or legends by most biblical scholars. To get the mythical characters out of the mythical Garden of Eden we must have a reason to get them out of "paradise". They are not going to leave on their own, life is too easy. Therefore the author shows that man is incapable of obeying God's simplest commands. Snakes crawl on the ground, hard to see and have poisonous venom; otherwise "evil". Why not have the snake be the "adversary" in this little story. Man despises them anyway.

Rev 12:9
So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.

Again you are using the New Testament to attempt to explain something in the Hebrew Bible. And again I emphasis that Satan was unknown in early Jewish theology.



So you are saying that it is not wise to have a hope about the future that is backed up in other parts of the bible as well?
No. What I said was that by using, again, the Hebrew Bible to justify Christians belief in Jesus is invalid. Jesus' teachings, as presented in the New Testament, is not in most cases against the teachings in the Hebrew Bible.


No actually Christ and his followers. Paul was one of those.

Do not lump all "christian" congregations into the one belief of some certain churches. We are not all of that mold. Some of us go by Gods word the Bible, not Mans.
No what I implied was that Paul turned the religion of Jesus into the religion about Jesus.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I think you may be down playing the problems. During the Roman occupation, we see quite a few revolts during that time. Right around the time that Jesus was born, there was a major revolt. Not too long after his death, we then see a massive revolt that changed everything in the area.

That's not mentioning the turmoil caused by Pilate.

That points me to my leading explanation: it was a turbulent time with plenty of people were running around claiming to be messiahs, prophets or the like. New religious movements were emerging and proclaiming that they had the truth.

When someone simply follows the prevailing fashion, do we need to look for any deeper explanation? Someone who grew up surrounded by stories of "messiahs" proclaimed himself as a messiah as well. Why not just figure that he was following the established trend? It seems a lot less problematic to me than assuming that out of many people doing similar things in a particular area, one of them (and only one of them, apparently) was inspired by God.

Judging by the effect of bringing Christ when He did there seemed to be some wisdom to it. The would not be an internet if it weren't for the church.
How so?

At the risk of running afoul of Godwin's Law, keep in mind a few things:

- There would not have been an internet if it weren't for the Cold War. The distributed architecture that allowed the internet to expand the way it did was originally designed to be resistant to nuclear attack.

- There would not have been a Cold War if it weren't for World War II.

- There would not have been a World War II if it weren't for Hitler.

So... do we really have God to thank for all this? You can't credit God for the internet without crediting him for Hitler. Do you want to do that?
 
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