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Featured "Why Did God Create Mankind if He Knew Man Would Sin?"

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Skwim, Apr 30, 2018.

  1. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Assertions of what you consider to be fact, which is exactly how you presented them. But hey, if you misspoke, (you're not the first one around here who has trouble with phraseology) and they're only your beliefs, so be it. :shrug: No biggie.

    .
     
  2. james blunt

    james blunt Well-Known Member

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    God didn't know humans would sin when God had left and stopped teaching. God thought you was all going to be alright and normal.
     
  3. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Hey tempogain, hope you are having a good day!

    Keep in mind, for millions of years, none of the angels had turned against Jehovah, no one had ever tempted anybody to defy Him....and God was really a loving father, providing for the needs of all his creatures. There was no reason to expect anyone to begin a course of rebellion.

    Having perfection means an inclination to obey...as opposed to us imperfect creatures.

    Inclination doesn't mean always...otherwise they'd be automatons... but God wants worship from the heart, not cuz they're programmed to. And Jehovah dignifies His intelligent creatures by giving them privacy of thought, yet hoping they'll make the right choices.

    I already posted a link to an article showing how the Bible says Jehovah 'felt hurt at heart', that He 'wanted to get to know' something, and He told Abraham after he tried to offer up Isaac, "Now I do know that you are God-fearing."

    What does this indicate to you? That God always knows how individuals will act? Not to me. He may know how a situation will turn out, but He doesn't always choose to know who will be involved. There are a couple of exceptions: instances involving Cyrus the Great, Jeremiah, and Jesus. But those are exceedingly rare.

    Let's get back to Adam & Eve. Eve was deceived, but Adam wasn't. So why did Adam rebel, it seems, so easily?
    Well, look what was used against him: his precious wife! He was threatened with losing her! But as I mentioned in an earlier post, at the very least, he shouldve turned to his Father, and asked. The situation was actually working against Adam's obedient nature.... A situation the Devil had maneouvered.

    Yes, Satan must have been thinking about rebellion for a while. At one time, the Angel who made himself a rebel, was once loyal to God -- @ John 8:44, Jesus said "he (Satan) did not stand fast in the truth" -- but he apparently kept thinking about wrong desires. -- James 1:13-15

    And Jehovah didnt police their thoughts. At that time, He certainly had no reason to.

    (Sorry if I rambled)
     
  4. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    Then is it not God's fault for "leaving a steak" in the Garden?
     
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  5. Furchizedek

    Furchizedek Member

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    People have a right to make belief assertions. And you have a right to question them about their assertions. It's all good.
     
  6. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    As I stated previously, the source of sin is disobedience to God.

    Sin is disobedience to God. God is not disobedient to Himself, so there is no sin with God.

    Correct.

    No.

    It beginning was in disobedience to God.

    Sin was not created. It does not an entity that exists alongside God. It is the current state of man.

    Where you have disobedience to God you have sin. Sin can’t possibly be eternal like God because His creation is not eternal.

    Disobedience

    God was never okay with sin and He already knew how it would affect us. God never wanted us to sin; we did that on our own.

    Sin is DISOBEDIENCE to God.

    How do you arrive at this conclusion? God gave his only begotten son to die for our sins. It sound to me like He was bothered.

    Where do you get the idea that God got along with sin prior to humans? It's certainly not biblical.
    Man was created with free will. It's not something God has taken away.

    Sin is disobedience to God. Does God disagree with Himself? Is He disobedient with Himself? If you have evidence of this, please expound on it.

    Correct.

    No. Sin is not "outside of God's will", it's "not doing" God's will.

    My goodness! We have free will and the power to exercise that will. Sometimes we use that power to do the will of God, sometime we don't.

    He had the power to grant us free will didn't he?

    No we don't have a problem understanding God exist but we don't have a problem understanding sin exists either. For evidence just look around.

    Sin has manifestation in our actions.

    Who claims there is no sin? Certainly not Christians! When Jesus stated "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" no one was left with a stone in their hand.

    In Christian theology man is not equal but inferior to God. When God became man “condescension” was an excellent term to describe the process.

    This sounds suspiciously like the Groucho Marx routine where he asks if I’ve stopped beating my wife. :rolleyes:

    Look around. Sin exists all over the place.

    The diagram represents a Christian view of God and His universe. Students of neo-Platonism or Eastern Philosophy will probably have lots of problems with it.

    But I think you misunderstood my statement. When I say creation exists within God, not God within His creation, I’m stating that creation is bounded by God but God is not bounded by His creation. God is eternal, His creation is not.

    Sin exists whenever and wherever there is disobedience to God. We are not the only creation of God that was granted free will. Animals do not have the ability to accept or reject God, so they do not sin.

    Our nature is not outside ourselves.

    Then there is nothing that can be improved and our current state is the best we can hope for. I’m not buying that.

    For Christians our walk with God will entail a war of spirit vs. flesh. For others the status quo may be just fine.

    There is no problem at all. Sin is not confined to humans because angels have sinned as well.
     
  7. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    If we were dogs, yes...but we were never dogs.
     
  8. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    for millions of years, none of the angels had turned against Jehovah,

    no one had ever tempted anybody to defy Him

    God. . . providing for the needs of all his creatures

    Jehovah dignifies His intelligent creatures by giving them privacy of thought,

    He may know how a situation will turn out, but He doesn't always choose to know who will be involved.

    Eve was deceived, but Adam wasn't.

    [Adam] was threatened with losing her!

    Satan must have been thinking about rebellion for a while.

    Jehovah didnt police their thoughts.


    A curious collection of assertions you've made here. Care to tell us how you come by them, because they're certainly not in the Bible.

    If Adam wasn't deceived, then why, after being told

    Gen 2:16-17
    16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die.”
    did he take a bite?

    Gen. 3:6
    6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate; and she also gave some to her husband, and he ate.
    Short term memory loss perhaps? You say, "The situation was actually working against Adam's obedient nature.... A situation the Devil had maneouvered." If Adam was maneuvered by the devil what chance did he have in exercising volitional responsibility? None---he was deceived! And if this was the case how could god, in good conscience, hold him responsible? We mere mortals down here on earth certainly wouldn't because we consider culpability (responsibility) when assigning fault. You're implying god did not--he didn't care that the devil had deceived Adam into eating the apple---that god is less fair-minded than the creatures he created. But maybe that's exactly the case; god simply isn't as fair-minded as we are. Hmmm. [​IMG]


    .
     
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  9. james blunt

    james blunt Well-Known Member

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    Of course not , it is mans fault and more than likely over a women or food. Did you know that God whom is space, is the only thing that can't harm us?

    Only when ''your'' mind is pure like God , will ''you'' find peace.
     
  10. tempogain

    tempogain Member

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    I expect my omniscient entities to know such things :) Especially about their own new creations, not to mention crafty and potentially damaging malignant actors! Well, I guess I've said everything I can really say about it, and I'll stand on my previous posts.
     
  11. Furchizedek

    Furchizedek Member

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    Disclaimer: Everything I say is my opinion and/or my beliefs.

    I would like to suggest that anyone interested in the subject of Adam and Eve read these 4 papers in The Urantia Book, papers 74-77 (see below for details and links). They amount to 35 pages in the book, and they contain the true story of Adam and Eve (see disclaimer above) who were here 38,000 years ago (according to my belief). Anyway, 35 pages. Would it kill ya to read them? It's far and away the strangest story in The Urantia Book (IMO) but as Mark Twain said, "Truth is stranger than fiction." And wait till you read about the "secondary midwayers." There's 1,111 loyal secondary midwayers on earth doing God's business (according to the book). They're invisible. They're closer to human than angels, they're "midway" between humans and angels. They are the product of the Nephilim and the "mighty men of old" as mentioned in Genesis. They rolled the stone away from Jesus' tomb. Angels can't do that. Such are my beliefs at least.

    Paper 74: 74. Adam and Eve
    Adam and Eve
    1. Adam and Eve on Jerusem
    2. Arrival of Adam and Eve
    3. Adam and Eve Learn about the Planet
    4. The First Upheaval
    5. Adam's Administration
    6. Home Life of Adam and Eve
    7. Life in the Garden
    8. The Legend of Creation

    Paper 75: 75. The Default of Adam and Eve
    The Default of Adam and Eve
    1. The Urantia Problem
    2. Caligastia's Plot
    3. The Temptation of Eve
    4. The Realization of Default
    5. Repercussions of Default
    6. Adam and Eve Leave the Garden
    7. Degradation of Adam and Eve
    8. The So-Called Fall of Man

    Paper 76: 76. The Second Garden
    The Second Garden
    1. The Edenites Enter Mesopotamia
    2. Cain and Abel
    3. Life in Mesopotamia
    4. The Violet Race
    5. Death of Adam and Eve
    6. Survival of Adam and Eve

    Paper 77: 77. The Midway Creatures
    The Midway Creatures
    1. The Primary Midwayers
    2. The Nodite Race
    3. The Tower of Babel
    4. Nodite Centers of Civilization
    5. Adamson and Ratta
    6. The Secondary Midwayers
    7. The Rebel Midwayers
    8. The United Midwayers
    9. The Permanent Citizens of Urantia
     
  12. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    The Bible does not support that claim. God harmed and killed more people in the Bible than Hitler did during WWII.
     
  13. james blunt

    james blunt Well-Known Member

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    Not God, that was god.
     
  14. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    Clearly not, but it demonstrates that responsibility for the actions of another may at times rest upon us.
     
  15. Windwalker

    Windwalker Veteran Member
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    So then, we or some other being before us, was able to bring for something into the universe which had not been there, that God did not create? If you answer yes, which you have to, then there are other gods since only God is supposed to be responsible for all of creation, right? "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."

    So then, it appears either sin does not actually exist as this "thing" that our actions as humans brought into the world, or some entity did some creating of its own outside God's will or power. Hence, why God would not be omnipotent if this were so.

    If sin is disobedience to God, then why not just call it that, and not call it like some force or something that got brought into existence through disobedience? You are treating it as a "thing", a force of dark energies or something like that.

    But in reality, it is interesting you say sin is "disobedience", using the Strict Parent image of God, as you appear to hold by that word choice. The word sin in the Greek of course, actually means "to fall short of the mark", which I assumed every Christian alive knows at this point. That falling short of the mark is not necessarily being "disobedient". That would actually be more a symptom, than a cause.

    Falling short, doesn't mean you saying screw off to God. One doesn't have to be a state of active rebellion, in order to fall short of the mark. A dark thought about yourself or another is falling shot of the Grace of God, but it's not being "disobedient" (bad boy, bad boy, spank spank, spank). Many very loving and obedient children don't measure up at all times to making the best choice, or error in responses. This image of God that would call that "disobedient", is not a very Knowing or Compassionate God.

    I rather see it that God created us as we are, and part of that was a path to find our way home to God. I don't believe the Adam and Eve story literally, as though it were meant to be read as historical and scientific facts.

    The story that we fell from Grace, is in a sense true, inasmuch as humans were created by God into the world right along with all the other creatures of this creation. That state of being a creation is in itself a "separation" from God. We come from the Bosom of God into the world, though never in reality actually separate from God, as God cannot be separate from anything and still be considered to be God.

    What is the separation, or 'fall', is that of our own awareness of God as the Source of us; that we are in reality, not separate from God because that is not possible. It is only in how we see reality though these very partial and limited set of eyes we use, be they physical, mental, or spiritual eyes.

    What the story of Adam and Eve captures in its imagery, in its symbolism (and they are rich), is that of the human realization of his condition as awake enough to realize he is not in a slumber unaware of himself and the world like the animals, yet, not awake enough to truly understand and connect with that Source of their own being. This is an existential story, of an imagined past, which is really a projection of a hoped for future in order to explain this "midway" point between the beasts and the Infinite God which create all that is.

    It is not a literal accounting, but an expression of the angst of the human condition, realizing we "fall short of the mark" or God, or that we are in the state of "sin". It ascribes this realization to mythological figures to represent this in us. So the story is "true", in that this is where we find ourselves, but it is not history and science.

    "ἁμαρτία hamartia "sin", is failure, being in error, missing the mark, especially in spear throwing"

    No, it's not "disobedience" that's a different word.

    Of course. Have you studied other views of this?

    I would never imagine God being bounded by creation. And, I would also never image being God not within every part of creation, fully present, in everything and everyone. That we don't see God, does not mean God is actually absent. God is not "out there", or "up there" somewhere outside creation either. That's not possible.

    Do you believe God is not within Creation, not fully immanent and Present, but rather fully outside creation, wholly transcendent?


    How do you know this?

    I don't buy that either. Of course we can grow, but why do you call that "fallen". Is a five year old a defective, or "fallen" 12 year old?

    Actually, I find this notion of this being a "war" to be really misguided thinking. One does not have to kill, mame, injure, or destroy aspects of yourself in order to have a health, manageable relationship with them. This war notion, is a recipe of an unhealthy, dysfunctional dissociation of one's own psychological and spiritual self. It is not a recipe for growth.

    Saying no, to indulgences is self-discipline, not pulling out knives and spears and going to war with yourself. That's unhealthy. That's violence. Violence is sin too. Wiping your back with shards of bone attached to leather straps in not a true spiritual path. That's just the ego.
     
    #115 Windwalker, May 6, 2018
    Last edited: May 6, 2018
  16. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Do you think Adam ever took a crap?

    Why? It's not stated in the Bible.
    _________________

    Do you think Eve ever slept?

    Why? It's not in the Bible.
    _________________

    Certain reasonable deductions can be made, without the Bible saying anything.

    But the Bible does specifically tell us a lot, like at John 8:44, Jesus said to the Jews that the 'Devil was their father', and that he was also "the father of the lie."

    So, contrary to many opinions, the ancient Jews were aware of the Devil's existence -- if they had not been aware, Jesus' statement would have no meaning to them.

    Further, by Jesus saying to them that he was the "father of the lie" and "a manslayer", no deceit had ever occurred before his rebellious activity at Eden.

    It's deduction.
     
  17. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    And you honestly think these are reasonable deductions, do you. So, just what evidence led you to reasonably to conclude that:

    for millions of years, none of the angels had turned against Jehovah,

    no one had ever tempted anybody to defy Him

    God. . . providing for the needs of all his creatures

    Jehovah dignifies His intelligent creatures by giving them privacy of thought,

    He may know how a situation will turn out, but He doesn't always choose to know who will be involved.

    Eve was deceived, but Adam wasn't.

    [Adam] was threatened with losing her!

    Satan must have been thinking about rebellion for a while.

    Jehovah didnt police their thoughts.


    Okay, but so what? We aren't talking about what Jesus told the Jews, but what you claim above.

    Fine. Just tell us from what evidence you deduced the claims I've relisted above.

    .
     
    #117 Skwim, May 6, 2018
    Last edited: May 6, 2018
  18. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    @Skwim,
    How come you excluded the one paragraph of my reply that pertained to some of those issues?

    (BTW, regarding Adam being deceived...1 Timothy 2:14)

    I'll post it again:
    "Further, by Jesus saying to them that he (the Devil) was the "father of the lie" and "a manslayer", no deceit had ever occurred, before his rebellious activity at Eden."

    That should cover the first two.

    Now, for the others....
    "God. . . providing for the needs of all his creatures"

    The psalmist David gratefully said to Jehovah: “To you the eyes of all look hopefully, and you are giving them their food in its season. You are opening your hand and satisfying the desire of every living thing.” (Psalm 145:15, 16) Jehovah has provided an abundance of food for both man and animal. There is a difference though. Whereas animals require only physical food, Jesus showed that man needs more than physical bread, or food. He ‘must live also on every utterance coming forth through Jehovah’s mouth.’—Matthew 4:4.
    -- Except from Sustaining Ourselves on the Fulfillment of Jehovah’s Utterances — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY


    "Jehovah dignifies His intelligent creatures by giving them privacy of thought,"

    (Answered in the next part---)

    "He may know how a situation will turn out, but He doesn't always choose to know who will be involved. "

    Isaiah 46:10...He ' tells the finale.'
    But....

    Jonah 3:1-10...Jehovah God changed his mind, after the Ninevites repented.

    Ge 18:20-22.....Jehovah advised Abraham of his decision to investigate Sodom (by means of his angels) to “see whether they act altogether according to the outcry over it that has come to me, and, if not, I can get to know it."

    God spoke of ‘becoming acquainted with Abraham,’ and after Abraham went to the point of attempting to sacrifice Isaac, Jehovah said,For now I do know that you are God-fearing in that you have not withheld your son, your only one, from me.”—Ge 18:19;22:11, 12; compare Ne 9:7, 8; Ga 4:9.


    (Excellent article at Foreknowledge, Foreordination — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY)

    "Eve was deceived, but Adam wasn't."

    Already answered. 1 Timothy 2:14

    "[Adam] was threatened with losing her!"

    Well, wasn't he? She ate from the tree....she was going to die!

    "Satan must have been thinking about rebellion for a while. "

    For one, he approached Eve, the one with the least experience, getting her to affect Adam.
    Then he asked her a deceptive question which was just the opposite to what God had said! By inference, in question form, it was really the first lie, designed to give a false viewpoint. By creating the atmosphere of doubt, it led to the first direct lie: “You positively will not die.” (Gen. 2:16, 17; 3:1-5)

    "Jehovah didnt police their thoughts."

    See above.

    Side point:
    Deuteronomy 32:4-5...People acting stupid, is their own defect
     
  19. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    What do you mean "bring forth something into the universe which had not been there, that God did not create"? Where on earth in the Genesis account did you come up with that???

    That's YOUR theory Windwalker, not mine. Your account doesn't appear in Genesis and your interpretation of sin is not evidenced in scripture. Instead it appears to me, however wrongly, that you're not really reading what I write but only read what you wish I would write.

    That is not the right way to read my posts and is certainly no way to read and interpret Christian theology.

    In any event I'm going to proceed under the assumption that when Christians say "SIN!" you're not exactly sure what we mean. Let's proceed:

    There are plenty of false gods that man brought forth. The bible is replete with them. They don't exist except in the imagination of men.

    Let's not conflate Godly attributes and claim they are made. Free will was not made. Let's not confuse disobedience to God as something "made". Disobedience is an allowance, not a creation, of God, and is a possible result of free will.

    Prior to the making of free will creatures sin was not possible as God was never conflicted with Himself.

    Let's proceed...

    EXCELLENT Windwalker! I think we're making progress here. Sin is not a "thing", with GPS coordinates. It's an exercise of free will and manifested in our actions.

    Careful! We were making progess. Let's not backslide here.

    Since this is not so, there is no need to conjecture as if it is.

    Because I don't claim it's "some force or something that got brought into existence". That's something you or somebody else claims. I claim it's an exercise of free will and free will was not "some force or something that got brought into existence" because God always had free will.

    I hope this is now clear. :)

    After all I've posted here, answering every question you've asked, can you please let me know where you got that idea?

    I appreciate your restatement. Restatements allow us to understand if we understand the other person's point of view correctly. But dialogue will be difficult if you repeatedly restate what I didn't write into something you prefer I did.

    Let's test your restatement by kindly quoting the passage where I claimed, or inferred sin was "..a "thing", a force of dark energies or something like that". :rolleyes:

    Ready the goalposts! I think they're about to be moved. :)

    Please stay with thread theme and the context of our discussion. We're discussing A&E's sin which was disobedience to a command of God.

    Disobedience is not a symptom of free will else God would be disobedient. Also, and I am not sure if you're alleging otherwise, but disobedience is an exercise of free will and not a cause of free will. So disobedience is a sin but it is not a thingy, it is not a dark "force", nor is it a symptom or cause of free will.

    Interesting sidebar, and to some extent I agree, but we're talking about a man and woman, not a boy and girl. Let's get back to the Genesis account and the specific matter we were discussing which was A&E purposeful, non-accidental decision to not obey the command of God.

    I agree with you that God created us "as we were". I also believe He knew what we would be, but decided on creating us anyways because He knows what we will become.

    I appreciate your thoughts on Genesis. I know some people consider it literal, other allegory, still others something else. I believe the bible to be the word of God and that when God speaks His word is inerrant. I also agree with your previous statement that for now, we see through a dark glassy.

    Again, we're talking about A&E's sin so yes, disobedience was involved,and this much more than "spear throwing". When they were disobedient they erred or missed the mark.

    I've studied, but I would not consider myself a current student. It's been a long time since college.

    I agree with you to some extent. Physically there can be no place where God is not. Spiritually I believe that the Holy Spirit indwells those who want Him.

    All creation is a witness to God in its own way. But they would not have the capacity to take the Lord's name in vain, bear false witness or keep the Sabbath, and still, even after all these years, have no idea they're running around naked. :eek:

    Yes, both are fallen:

    the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, (Romans 3:22-24)​

    We are fallen because we are morally and spiritually degraded from where we were in the garden.
    Remember Jesus' admonishment to the church at Ephesus: “Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first” (Revelation 2:5 see also 1 Corinthians 10:12).

    I agree! As scripture states:

    "These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh." (Col 2:23)​

    but when Christians war with fleshly desires they are not pulling knives, wiping themselves with shards of bone or even striking themselves with leather straps.

    It is a spiritual war against our fallen, carnal nature.
     
  20. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    I agree with your "may". In the Genesis account it's apparently what Adam tried to do...blame his own actions on Eve and by extension, God:

    "The man said, "The woman you put here with me--she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."
     
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